|
On July 21 2011 03:58 PanzerKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 03:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 21 2011 03:13 PanzerKing wrote:
I'll watch your replay when I'm home from work, but there's really no way you can lose to mech once you're on that many bases. Just build Ultras and lings and Nydus all over the place. He won't have any mobile response to Ultras - the mech will be too slow and he won't have stim or upgrades on his marauders. And if for some reason you decide to have a 20 minute no-rush game and you really end up with 8k minerals in the bank and a split map, build some extra overlords, prep a killer drop, put the empty overlords in front of the full ones, and drop ultras on his maxed army. They'll die to the splash, yours and theirs, and with the way that Vikings overkill, he won't get off more than one or two volleys, killing only a handful of empty overlords. You remax instantly and win the game, easy-peasy. He didn't build any rax units. It was pure tank with a few hellions in front to buffer the incoming army while he sieged. He slowly crept up on the map. I was on 7 base at one point (well, main was mined out). I did try drop play, as well as nydusing. You have to realize the map is Shakuras, so it's not hard to split map. He had mass missile turrets as well and sensor towers. Drops stopped working when he got a massive viking count. I'm talking about 30+ vikings. His ground army was still strong since he sacked all his SCVs as he was running around 8 orbitals. There's only two routes to drop in the entire map. Through the top or bottom. There's nothing *to* drop in the middle. And with sensor towers, vikings can rip apart my ovies. I doubt the play is viable on maps like Metal or Tal'Darim. On July 21 2011 03:06 PhiliBiRD wrote:
vs mech, you just have to abuse the fact that you can rebuild your entire army in 40 seconds and it takes the terran 3-4x longer.
so max out, save up a bunch of money and try to clear his tank count, or viking count (something like that) then abuse his composition He had enough production to remax at near the same rate I could. When you're on 6port+ and 8facts (some with reactor on ports + facts), with a single production round you can replenish 40-50 supply. When your army doesn't consist of SCVs, you're not losing more than 50 supply anyways in a single go, especially when you have a ton of static defense as well. If you have 8k minerals in the bank, you can drop against 30 vikings just as easily as you can against 3 vikings. Make 20 extra ovies and sac them as a shield for your ultras. You're only going to lose a few before your drop is on top of him. I mean, he can't put those vikings on your half of the map. Fungal growth will shred them apart if he moves them more than a few units of distance from his siege tanks. So he gets a couple volleys from his 30 vikings, most of which is wasted on overkill, then you drop on top of him. Not in his base - literally directly on top of his army. The ultra splash damage is ridiculous, and so is the splash his tanks do to each other. I remember Idra doing the same against some Werra guy on Metalopolis ages ago, close to the end of the beta. Idra crushed his 2-base push and instead of just killing him, let the guy take half the map just to show how much better Z's late game is. This guy built a ton of turrets and stacked a huge 3/3 mech army on the gold. Idra dropped Ultras on it and killed it effortlessly. There's a reason people aren't trying to split-map mech against Z. Mech wins with timing pushes before Z can field a large tier 3 army, not in a super late-game scenario.
I don't understand, when he can see any drop coming with sensor towers, how are your ovies not getting shredded? I know about using empty ovies, but he had a tonnn of vikings and mass missile turrets that would shoot all my movies when I did try drop play (not to mention when ovies with Ultras get sniped, so much money lost  ). Even with 8k banked, when you try to mass ultra, you usually lose almost all your money in a single remax. You can't continually throw armies at him. Remaxing 100 supply of ultras is 5000 minerals in itself, and will insta drain all your gas. I did try drop play on his army but not the mass drop play you speak of. I'll retake a look at the replay to see if it was viable and if I could have broken through his defense (towards the end of the game, I missed a few timings during midgame by choosing to macro instead, and just not capitalizing, but that shit happens in a ton of games).
Note: he never once pushed my base a single time all game, nor did any drops. He harassed forward expansions with hellions a bit, but that's all. His viking never flew out in the open either to kill ovies or anything, they stayed strictly on his side to deny drops and hide behind missile turrets and sensor towers.
|
On July 21 2011 04:03 FabledIntegral wrote:I don't understand, when he can see any drop coming with sensor towers, how are your ovies not getting shredded? I know about using empty ovies, but he had a tonnn of vikings and mass missile turrets that would shoot all my movies when I did try drop play (not to mention when ovies with Ultras get sniped, so much money lost ). Even with 8k banked, when you try to mass ultra, you usually lose almost all your money in a single remax. You can't continually throw armies at him. Remaxing 100 supply of ultras is 5000 minerals in itself, and will insta drain all your gas. I did try drop play on his army but not the mass drop play you speak of. I'll retake a look at the replay to see if it was viable and if I could have broken through his defense (towards the end of the game, I missed a few timings during midgame by choosing to macro instead, and just not capitalizing, but that shit happens in a ton of games). Note: he never once pushed my base a single time all game, nor did any drops. He harassed forward expansions with hellions a bit, but that's all. His viking never flew out in the open either to kill ovies or anything, they stayed strictly on his side to deny drops and hide behind missile turrets and sensor towers.
Sensor towers are irrelevant. You're not trying to sneak attack him so much as brute force drop. Having 8k minerals in the bank means you could in theory make 10 overlords to head up the front, taking a bunch of viking/turret damage while your actual drop overlords make it into the territory you are attacking (whether that be his army or his base is up to you). He can move in with his vikings all he wants, but he won't know which overlords contain the units, and if he just attacks head on, theyll hit 1000 minerals of absolutely nothing.
Once your boys are on the ground smacking, his vikings don't do squat anymore. In fact, those vikings become a liability as they are using up supply to try and defend the skies, when the real battle is going on the ground.
|
On July 21 2011 06:08 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 04:03 FabledIntegral wrote:I don't understand, when he can see any drop coming with sensor towers, how are your ovies not getting shredded? I know about using empty ovies, but he had a tonnn of vikings and mass missile turrets that would shoot all my movies when I did try drop play (not to mention when ovies with Ultras get sniped, so much money lost ). Even with 8k banked, when you try to mass ultra, you usually lose almost all your money in a single remax. You can't continually throw armies at him. Remaxing 100 supply of ultras is 5000 minerals in itself, and will insta drain all your gas. I did try drop play on his army but not the mass drop play you speak of. I'll retake a look at the replay to see if it was viable and if I could have broken through his defense (towards the end of the game, I missed a few timings during midgame by choosing to macro instead, and just not capitalizing, but that shit happens in a ton of games). Note: he never once pushed my base a single time all game, nor did any drops. He harassed forward expansions with hellions a bit, but that's all. His viking never flew out in the open either to kill ovies or anything, they stayed strictly on his side to deny drops and hide behind missile turrets and sensor towers. Sensor towers are irrelevant. You're not trying to sneak attack him so much as brute force drop. Having 8k minerals in the bank means you could in theory make 10 overlords to head up the front, taking a bunch of viking/turret damage while your actual drop overlords make it into the territory you are attacking (whether that be his army or his base is up to you). He can move in with his vikings all he wants, but he won't know which overlords contain the units, and if he just attacks head on, theyll hit 1000 minerals of absolutely nothing. Once your boys are on the ground smacking, his vikings don't do squat anymore. In fact, those vikings become a liability as they are using up supply to try and defend the skies, when the real battle is going on the ground.
lol are you aware of how far you have to fly on shakuras to do a doom drop? You could kill over 30 overlords before a single one dropped.
|
I am the suck, but I'll give my 2 cents from the replay.
It seems like you really just missed a timing to switch over to muta production. I forgot to check, but with blue flame and siege on two base there is almost no way he had stim. That second drop that you invested in could have easily been 12 mutas and a couple of overlords full of zerglings and killed off a ton of SCVs, maybe a few supply depots or the armorys (which would have been huge). Suicide the zerglings on missle turrets/thors (there were none there) and use the mutas to clean up everything else.
As a Terran player, Mutas are an incredible pain to counter, especially on big maps with small ramps and multiple tiers (shakuras, backwater gulch, typhon peaks). One you hit a critical number of mutas (~30) there really isn't much the T can counter with outside the lumbering thor or mass marines with stim. Just throw away "spare" minerals on big bunches of lings and use them to clean up anything the mutas can't, play prevention and watch carefully for unsieged tanks to move in with lings. After a certain point you can just throw away the lings and switch to brood/infestor, which is pretty much the end game goal of most Z's playing these days.
If you had switched over to muta production/upgrades, he would've been caught with his pants down. Vikings are no match, even with upgrades, thors are incredibly slow, and he didn't have production capacity for marines in that particular window.
|
On July 21 2011 07:42 Jayecks wrote:
I am the suck, but I'll give my 2 cents from the replay.
It seems like you really just missed a timing to switch over to muta production. I forgot to check, but with blue flame and siege on two base there is almost no way he had stim. That second drop that you invested in could have easily been 12 mutas and a couple of overlords full of zerglings and killed off a ton of SCVs, maybe a few supply depots or the armorys (which would have been huge). Suicide the zerglings on missle turrets/thors (there were none there) and use the mutas to clean up everything else.
As a Terran player, Mutas are an incredible pain to counter, especially on big maps with small ramps and multiple tiers (shakuras, backwater gulch, typhon peaks). One you hit a critical number of mutas (~30) there really isn't much the T can counter with outside the lumbering thor or mass marines with stim. Just throw away "spare" minerals on big bunches of lings and use them to clean up anything the mutas can't, play prevention and watch carefully for unsieged tanks to move in with lings. After a certain point you can just throw away the lings and switch to brood/infestor, which is pretty much the end game goal of most Z's playing these days.
If you had switched over to muta production/upgrades, he would've been caught with his pants down. Vikings are no match, even with upgrades, thors are incredibly slow, and he didn't have production capacity for marines in that particular window.
As I said, I understand there were a few timings I missed, but I don't believe you can say "you missed this short timing you could have exploited midgame, despite the game going on 30 minutes beyond that when you had more minerals/gas banked at the time." Maybe I'm wrong. But I do agree with you, I definitely missed some timings. I just take it as the equivalent of saying "early game you could have hit his attack force that moved out with a ton of lings, but they were out of position so he moved back to his base and neither of you took any damage."
The Roach drop did a ton of damage, and you must realize he had a TON of turrets in his main as well. In order to hit him at that precise timing, I would have had to make all the mutas at once without him scouting and still would have had to fend off Thors. Realize by midgame he had something like 20+ turrets!
12 mutas would have only tickled his 5 or so turrets in his main, I couldn't get in, and he still had ability to quickly produce Thors. Turrets are just so good vs muta, and he MASSED them.
|
I've had problems with this as well, and I think that it sorta comes down to tempo. Usually, from the zerg perspective (in ZvT) the slower the game tempo the better. If he's not attacking you, you can be making drones, expanding, teching and generally using the strengths of zerg to the fullest. If terran never attacked or harassed early you'd crush them. Instead, terrans usually hit certain timings that allow them to put pressure on. In general, the terran player needs to be pressuring, while the zerg player is trying to gain an economic/tech advantage.
This mindset needs to be reversed at some point in the game. Either once you're maxed or once you've fully developed your tech tree you need to become the aggressor. Once you've got a round of broodlords, you should attack with them. Do what damage you can, but when your broods get cleaned up, you need to be hitting him with another attack, usually with a switch to ultras or roaches (or something else that exploits the fact that he's dumped resources/supply into vikings). While you're doing this, you should be trying to drop his main or any other non-planetary expansions. If you need to doom-drop his main to do damage, so be it. Be sure to leave infestors and spinecrawlers along the main attack path so you can delay him in the event of a counter.
In general: Once late game hits, the clock is ticking. You need to become the aggressor. Drop, tech switch, nydus and attack until you win.
On the subject of your replay: you teched far too slow, especially your hive. Your infestation pit didn't go down until 16 minutes. Against strong mech timings pushes (especially anything thor-heavy, infestors with neural are a must-have. Also, I really don't like the choice to max out on pure roaches (generally) but being that you were going for drop play, roaches were a good choice there. The choice to go broods was questionable as well, as your roaches saw that he had put down a punch of starports to pump vikings. However, you still may have done well with the attack at the southeast base, if you'd been able to get infestors onto the high ground to fungal the vikings.
You did all the right stuff late (drop nydus, broodlords, etc) but you did it too slow. Also, you needed to hit him in multiple locations at the same time.
|
On July 21 2011 09:22 Lobotomist wrote:
I've had problems with this as well, and I think that it sorta comes down to tempo. Usually, from the zerg perspective (in ZvT) the slower the game tempo the better. If he's not attacking you, you can be making drones, expanding, teching and generally using the strengths of zerg to the fullest. If terran never attacked or harassed early you'd crush them. Instead, terrans usually hit certain timings that allow them to put pressure on. In general, the terran player needs to be pressuring, while the zerg player is trying to gain an economic/tech advantage.
This mindset needs to be reversed at some point in the game. Either once you're maxed or once you've fully developed your tech tree you need to become the aggressor. Once you've got a round of broodlords, you should attack with them. Do what damage you can, but when your broods get cleaned up, you need to be hitting him with another attack, usually with a switch to ultras or roaches (or something else that exploits the fact that he's dumped resources/supply into vikings). While you're doing this, you should be trying to drop his main or any other non-planetary expansions. If you need to doom-drop his main to do damage, so be it. Be sure to leave infestors and spinecrawlers along the main attack path so you can delay him in the event of a counter.
In general: Once late game hits, the clock is ticking. You need to become the aggressor. Drop, tech switch, nydus and attack until you win.
On the subject of your replay: you teched far too slow, especially your hive. Your infestation pit didn't go down until 16 minutes. Against strong mech timings pushes (especially anything thor-heavy, infestors with neural are a must-have. Also, I really don't like the choice to max out on pure roaches (generally) but being that you were going for drop play, roaches were a good choice there. The choice to go broods was questionable as well, as your roaches saw that he had put down a punch of starports to pump vikings. However, you still may have done well with the attack at the southeast base, if you'd been able to get infestors onto the high ground to fungal the vikings.
You did all the right stuff late (drop nydus, broodlords, etc) but you did it too slow. Also, you needed to hit him in multiple locations at the same time.
I agree on the timings that I missed. So you think if I miss those timings, I pretty much lose? I'm always scared of teching vs a mech player in case they move out and crush me in the process. It's happened many a times where I don't hit BL's in time and they just ROLL me. But yeah, I think you're right. :-/
|
Fungal trades very cost effectively with vikings if they ever clump up (but I assume he never lets his vikings stray that far from his tanks)
|
I'm also wondering what to do in this situation. I've faced several games like this where the Terran turtles super hard and you can't do anything. In one of my games (against avilo...), the Terran basically split the entire map in half (shattered temple), and started to wear me away with ravens and banshees. It's a very unforgiving style, so I found the best way to deal with it is just to not get to the late game. Despite the remaxing power of Zerg, they are incredibly weak when it comes to breaking siege lines, and Terrans can mine out much faster with mules. I've also tried using an infestor/broodlord/corruptor style, but vikings and ghosts can basically stop your advanced forever. Help!
|
This question comes up a lot in the strategy forums, and the problem is not the unit composition, but the way of thinking, zergs assume that they have to engage the terran army to beat it, they don't and they shouldn't.
The solution to your problem is to think outside the box, with nydus worms. If terran is able to 50/50 the map, then you probably lost early/mid game, however if it does get to this point, you should have a plan. The simplest of plans it to deny his fifth/sixth bases (talking about shakuras). Harass is third and fourth for sure, but really work on preventing him from ever establishing his fifth and sixth bases, nydus worms, drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestors, etc.. are all great tools for denying and harassing expansions of a terran player who utilizing a very immobile unit composition to control space.
|
On July 21 2011 18:10 CatNzHat wrote:
This question comes up a lot in the strategy forums, and the problem is not the unit composition, but the way of thinking, zergs assume that they have to engage the terran army to beat it, they don't and they shouldn't.
The solution to your problem is to think outside the box, with nydus worms. If terran is able to 50/50 the map, then you probably lost early/mid game, however if it does get to this point, you should have a plan. The simplest of plans it to deny his fifth/sixth bases (talking about shakuras). Harass is third and fourth for sure, but really work on preventing him from ever establishing his fifth and sixth bases, nydus worms, drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestors, etc.. are all great tools for denying and harassing expansions of a terran player who utilizing a very immobile unit composition to control space.
I agree with CatNzHat.
Also, don't try to break it, move around it. He can't be everywhere at once, not with siege tanks. Drop on both sides with 5 overlords stuffed with 3/3 cracklings and 5 empty meatshield overlords each and just destroy his production. Add a few infestors in seperate overlords that you send in slightly later to fungal the vikings to death as soon as they close in to defend.
You'd be suprised how fast cracklings can destroy a whole base.
For breaking the tank line after destroying his production, Ultralisks are the key. They are really underrated, but they can tank a lot of damage. My usual strategy is to send 5-6 ultralisks in front and as soon as the tanks fire at them, send in a ton of cracklings. This allows the lings to get close to the tanks without half of them dying on the way.
I made a small video quite a while ago to show how effective it actually is, though ofc it depends on upgrades, target fireing, positioning, etc. Ofc it's against the more common marine/tank/thor, but it shows how easy it is to destroy a whole tank line once you get close enough with your units.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Many people have already mentioned ultralisks, and I also believe this is the right idea. If he has 30 vikings worth of supply, then his ground army will be significantly weaker. If you simply ignore the vikings, then I think you should be able to win the ground engagement.
|
T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I think mutas are not the right response. They get shreded by thors. Imo, zerg has to get ready to all in the terran once you get close to max. I try to fill my remaining supply with either of the hive units. Ultras would have been a good idea. But once you let terran split the map with tanks sieged in the middle like that. It feels like you'll end up mining out and then terran unsieges for the gg.
|
On July 21 2011 18:10 CatNzHat wrote:
This question comes up a lot in the strategy forums, and the problem is not the unit composition, but the way of thinking, zergs assume that they have to engage the terran army to beat it, they don't and they shouldn't.
The solution to your problem is to think outside the box, with nydus worms. If terran is able to 50/50 the map, then you probably lost early/mid game, however if it does get to this point, you should have a plan. The simplest of plans it to deny his fifth/sixth bases (talking about shakuras). Harass is third and fourth for sure, but really work on preventing him from ever establishing his fifth and sixth bases, nydus worms, drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestors, etc.. are all great tools for denying and harassing expansions of a terran player who utilizing a very immobile unit composition to control space.
I don't think you watched the rep. There was no possible way to deny the expansions and I did in fact have three nydus worms running and tried to do dropping. I never engaged his army headon. Burrowed infestors had zero utility in ths MU because of the mass turrets everywhere.
On July 21 2011 18:39 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 18:10 CatNzHat wrote:
This question comes up a lot in the strategy forums, and the problem is not the unit composition, but the way of thinking, zergs assume that they have to engage the terran army to beat it, they don't and they shouldn't.
The solution to your problem is to think outside the box, with nydus worms. If terran is able to 50/50 the map, then you probably lost early/mid game, however if it does get to this point, you should have a plan. The simplest of plans it to deny his fifth/sixth bases (talking about shakuras). Harass is third and fourth for sure, but really work on preventing him from ever establishing his fifth and sixth bases, nydus worms, drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestors, etc.. are all great tools for denying and harassing expansions of a terran player who utilizing a very immobile unit composition to control space. I agree with CatNzHat. Also, don't try to break it, move around it. He can't be everywhere at once, not with siege tanks. Drop on both sides with 5 overlords stuffed with 3/3 cracklings and 5 empty meatshield overlords each and just destroy his production. Add a few infestors in seperate overlords that you send in slightly later to fungal the vikings to death as soon as they close in to defend. You'd be suprised how fast cracklings can destroy a whole base. For breaking the tank line after destroying his production, Ultralisks are the key. They are really underrated, but they can tank a lot of damage. My usual strategy is to send 5-6 ultralisks in front and as soon as the tanks fire at them, send in a ton of cracklings. This allows the lings to get close to the tanks without half of them dying on the way. I made a small video quite a while ago to show how effective it actually is, though ofc it depends on upgrades, target fireing, positioning, etc. Ofc it's against the more common marine/tank/thor, but it shows how easy it is to destroy a whole tank line once you get close enough with your units. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0hptT3Xw_w
I don't think you watched the rep either, there was no possible way to get in drops come lategame with the sensor towers and vikings roaming around, and my 5-6 ultralisks would have insta died and then cracklings would have been roasted shortly after. It's not like I was trying to use Ultralisks.
On July 21 2011 18:52 Slithe wrote:
Many people have already mentioned ultralisks, and I also believe this is the right idea. If he has 30 vikings worth of supply, then his ground army will be significantly weaker. If you simply ignore the vikings, then I think you should be able to win the ground engagement.
His ground army wasn't significantly weaker because he sacked all his SCVs.
|
I watched the whole replay(it seems a lot of these people didn't), and the one thing that stuck out is why did you go air at all? Like you said he was MASSINGGG vikings. He had so many. And wasn't the whole ZvT plan late game for the first 4 or so months of StarCraft to get broodlords, force a lot of vikings and then switch to ultras hard? Well, he already did the first part for you, and he didn't make 10 or 12 vikings, he had a good 30+ or so. I really feel that ultra crackling with a good flank/positioning as he moved out was the way to go, with a roach remax once or twice.
That said, your opponent was very patient in pushing out and extending his lines, making it extremely frustrating on a map that makes it hard to engage him, but broodlords and corruptors were really not the way to go against that many vikings. His entire army and setup(Vikings/thors/turrets) were built to handle that kind of tech.
|
Simply put, just mass up your resources instead of constantly trying to break his turtle. If you have half the bases and he has half the bases just max out and continue to stockpile larva. Eventually he has to move out to make something happen because he will run out of resources as well (and since in this case you haven't been blowing all your money suiciding units you should have roughly equal resources. But the kicker is you can remax way faster then a terran can, so just throw wave after wave at him when he is trying to move towards you instead of fighting him on his terms in his territory.
Note: Don't do this against someone who is doing anything but sitting in their base and turtling like crazy.
|
On July 22 2011 02:12 STS17 wrote:
Simply put, just mass up your resources instead of constantly trying to break his turtle. If you have half the bases and he has half the bases just max out and continue to stockpile larva. Eventually he has to move out to make something happen because he will run out of resources as well (and since in this case you haven't been blowing all your money suiciding units you should have roughly equal resources. But the kicker is you can remax way faster then a terran can, so just throw wave after wave at him when he is trying to move towards you instead of fighting him on his terms in his territory.
Note: Don't do this against someone who is doing anything but sitting in their base and turtling like crazy.
1. He never moved out. He crept. Big difference.
2. I did mass up like 8k/6k at one point. I also stockpiled a million larvae.
3. His army is 2x the size of me from lack of SCVs.
4. He can "remax" at the same rate at me with a ton of production facilities and being cost efficient.
On July 22 2011 01:59 Venomsflame wrote:
I watched the whole replay(it seems a lot of these people didn't), and the one thing that stuck out is why did you go air at all? Like you said he was MASSINGGG vikings. He had so many. And wasn't the whole ZvT plan late game for the first 4 or so months of StarCraft to get broodlords, force a lot of vikings and then switch to ultras hard? Well, he already did the first part for you, and he didn't make 10 or 12 vikings, he had a good 30+ or so. I really feel that ultra crackling with a good flank/positioning as he moved out was the way to go, with a roach remax once or twice.
That said, your opponent was very patient in pushing out and extending his lines, making it extremely frustrating on a map that makes it hard to engage him, but broodlords and corruptors were really not the way to go against that many vikings. His entire army and setup(Vikings/thors/turrets) were built to handle that kind of tech.
Thanks for watching. It sounded like the general consensus was that I shouldn't have tried to overpower his vikings with corrupters and mutas would have been a poor choice as well. It's just when facing 30ish tanks, your gut instinct tells you Broodlords! Maybe I should have tried just steamrolling his tankline with ultra, it just feels counterintuitive. It's not like his viking count even reduced his tank count since he had so much free supply. =[
|
On July 22 2011 02:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:12 STS17 wrote:
Simply put, just mass up your resources instead of constantly trying to break his turtle. If you have half the bases and he has half the bases just max out and continue to stockpile larva. Eventually he has to move out to make something happen because he will run out of resources as well (and since in this case you haven't been blowing all your money suiciding units you should have roughly equal resources. But the kicker is you can remax way faster then a terran can, so just throw wave after wave at him when he is trying to move towards you instead of fighting him on his terms in his territory.
Note: Don't do this against someone who is doing anything but sitting in their base and turtling like crazy. 1. He never moved out. He crept. Big difference. 2. I did mass up like 8k/6k at one point. I also stockpiled a million larvae. 3. His army is 2x the size of me from lack of SCVs. 4. He can "remax" at the same rate at me with a ton of production facilities and being cost efficient. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:59 Venomsflame wrote:
I watched the whole replay(it seems a lot of these people didn't), and the one thing that stuck out is why did you go air at all? Like you said he was MASSINGGG vikings. He had so many. And wasn't the whole ZvT plan late game for the first 4 or so months of StarCraft to get broodlords, force a lot of vikings and then switch to ultras hard? Well, he already did the first part for you, and he didn't make 10 or 12 vikings, he had a good 30+ or so. I really feel that ultra crackling with a good flank/positioning as he moved out was the way to go, with a roach remax once or twice.
That said, your opponent was very patient in pushing out and extending his lines, making it extremely frustrating on a map that makes it hard to engage him, but broodlords and corruptors were really not the way to go against that many vikings. His entire army and setup(Vikings/thors/turrets) were built to handle that kind of tech. Thanks for watching. It sounded like the general consensus was that I shouldn't have tried to overpower his vikings with corrupters and mutas would have been a poor choice as well. It's just when facing 30ish tanks, your gut instinct tells you Broodlords! Maybe I should have tried just steamrolling his tankline with ultra, it just feels counterintuitive. It's not like his viking count even reduced his tank count since he had so much free supply. =[
This is true, but he was upgrading vikings from double armory and had an insane amount of them. The only way to beat that kind of army is to make them useless. It's the same principle in PvT, you have 2 colossi and if they overreact and make 16 vikings? You stop making colossi! You switch to immortals and archons and whatnot, making the vikings near useless. Again, it's tough because he really did have an extreme tank count as well, but I still feel your best shot was to hit him with waves of upgraded ground armies once he got past the half way point.
And for all those saying, "Just wait for him to push out and attack and remax lol" his opponent was EXTREMELY patient. He didn't attack scan and siege, he slowly pushed across the map. Extremely frustrating to play against and very hard to break when done well, with ANY composition. Especially when about 160-170 of their supply is in their army instead of 120 like you're used to.
|
On July 21 2011 01:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Overall I simply don't understand how infestor/corrupter/broodlord would have even touched him this map. I tried it once, it didn't work super well, but vikings have such ridiculous range, and he had so many turrets to run behind. I can handle ten vikings. I can't handle 30 when 4 broodlords die in a single volley. He started building ghosts as well behind his tank lines. I'll probably try breaking the middle next time I play if the same thing happens, but still... from personal experience viking/raven shits on infestor/corrupter/BL because of PPD's and Seeker missiles (if you try to engage). And it's not like you can run when he has 30 vikings and 6 starports cranking out more regardless if you're going air or not... Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 23:04 BigBossX wrote:
I don't understand the need to break a turtle terran, why not just let him turtle while you mine out the map and bank 783245326745327 minerals and 645634653 gas and 326453287453287453287 larva and wait for him to make a move, he cannot win if he does not attack. And when he does move out, multi pronged drops, nydus worms etc will rape his face. Obviously it's not going to benefit you to constantly throw away your expensive t3 units attacking a well defended turtle terran. Just my opinion from a terran p.o.v. Because if you watched the replay, it was on Shakuras Plateau, and I attempted to do exactly that, and banked around 8k/6k at one point. You can't do multipronged drops when he has literally around 30+ turrets across the maps, sensor towers, and around 30 vikings at a time. Btw, I'm not saying it's not feasible, it just doesn't *seem* it to me. I didn't micro the greatest however, I had far too much faith in corrupters being able to take on vikings. He also slowly upgraded his vikings to 3/3 when mine were 2/0 or 3/0 so that really hurt. Was just too scared of going mutas since he had 3 Thors sprinkled in, and vs 30 vikings and 3 thors, are you going to touch him wiht mass muta?!
just as a sidenote... vikings are better than mutas on even upgrades. so with such an upgrade disadvantage you probably would have needed about 50 mutas to kill just the vikings, lol.
|
On July 21 2011 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
I agree on the timings that I missed. So you think if I miss those timings, I pretty much lose?
Have you ever played Protoss vs Muta/ling?
If you miss the 5/6gate timing, your chances of winning shrink immensely. The only reason Muta/ling has died a bit in competitive play is because 5/6gates became popular and then Infestor play became common. Before that, ladder vs Zerg was considered really, really hard beyond the 4gate (which, naturally, all Zergs complained about).
So it seems a bit hypocritical of you to complain about this, even against Terran. In a few months, the game will be more fleshed out, there will be some discovered timings for you to exploit and chances are this strategy will become less popular once more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
