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On July 22 2011 02:23 FabledIntegral wrote:
Thanks for watching. It sounded like the general consensus was that I shouldn't have tried to overpower his vikings with corrupters and mutas would have been a poor choice as well. It's just when facing 30ish tanks, your gut instinct tells you Broodlords! Maybe I should have tried just steamrolling his tankline with ultra, it just feels counterintuitive. It's not like his viking count even reduced his tank count since he had so much free supply. =[
I personally believe that, by the time he had 30ish tanks, you had already lost.
What, to me, feels like the crucial moment in which the game tips in T's favour in your game is your push at 24 minutes. I think that it had problems both in composition and in the tactics.
As far as tactics go, you chose to attack the one area where your infestors could not help against vikings (and you could expect 3 reactored starports worth of them, since you had scouted the ports going up; T actually had 7 clean starports, for the a similar production capability). Your corruptors also chased the vikings over turrets (which didn't really help). In general, anyway, the choice to engage there is questionable. You knew that T had at least a couple spare orbital commands, so all you would have achieved by breaking the planetary fortress, assuming you managed to do so, would have been to make him lose a rather small bit of mining time.
I think that it would have benefitted you much more to attack the center. You not only had the right units to turn his siege tanks into a liability, but you could also have supported them with infestors and queens. Six quens are remarkably good anti-air and transfusion can be incredible once army sizes decrease a little; your creep reached right up to the opposing base at that point.
The above alone would probably have won you the game without any switch in composition.
Consider your 29 minutes push, in which you faced a higher number of vikings with a force of the same size and yet you won the battle thanks to infestor support.
Composition-wise... I'll have to agree with those who suspect that ultralisks would have fared better (with one reservation: T can refine his building placement by having the orbital commands in the front to create artificial chokes, which would be a true problem for ultras. Not sure of how they'd fare in that case) . However, I also think that it might have been interesting to sacrifice those roaches, morph a dozen drones or so into crawlers and get 18 hydras to support the push. They're normally terrible in ZvT, but all the disadvantages they have when compared to roaches (higher cost, less mobility, less hp) would have not mattered when supporting brood lords in a maxed-supply scenario.
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On July 22 2011 03:35 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 10:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
I agree on the timings that I missed. So you think if I miss those timings, I pretty much lose? Have you ever played Protoss vs Muta/ling? If you miss the 5/6gate timing, your chances of winning shrink immensely. The only reason Muta/ling has died a bit in competitive play is because 5/6gates became popular and then Infestor play became common. Before that, ladder vs Zerg was considered really, really hard beyond the 4gate (which, naturally, all Zergs complained about). So it seems a bit hypocritical of you to complain about this, even against Terran. In a few months, the game will be more fleshed out, there will be some discovered timings for you to exploit and chances are this strategy will become less popular once more.
lol. That's completely different, nor relevant. A 5/6 gate timing is considered fairly allin, which is why it relies on timing. What I did was the equivalent of playing standard and him playing slightly greedy and me not punishing him. Such as him going CC first in this game. By no means is your analogy relevant to the game at hand, as I never tried to allin him or was gearing for a particular timing. Instead, I chose the macro route, which is a fine route to take. You don't always have to punish someone, you can respond to greedy play with greedy play of your own.
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Just do the 300 food push zerg always do and you should be fine. If you can't out produce a turtling terran then he deserves to win.
User was warned for this post
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If you can't drop, use nydus worms, if you can't nydus, then something's seriously wrong, and you've probably already lost the game and terran just hasn't ended it yet.
If there are 30 vikings roaming around, sac some drones into spine crawlers to prevent him from pushing, and then just go broodlord infestor, the 30 vikings will become a liability for terran, and take a lot of micro, as well as prevent them from running around killing overlords, making nydus worms a possibility again. You can always force your harass to work, there's not way around it, even with sensor towers and vikings... You can always just go corruptor brood lord infestor and just straight up win, make tanks useless and then flood with lings and spine crawlers.
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People please stop posting when it's 100% clear you haven't watched the replay.
This is directed at the last two posters. Your advice is useless.
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Watched replay. I think you had the right idea, but the terran did a very good job of thoroughly splitting the map
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I just watched an interesting game between idra and drewbie in the first round of ipl (cant find vod). Similar to the situation you were in, the terran, drewbie, was making a heavy tank and hellion force and turtling from base to base. Idra responded by massing mutalisks (almost 30) to force the production of thors, and then researched neural parasite and broke the terran line by mind controlling the thors and fungaling the hellions while his mutas cleaned up.
In addition, I found a vod of mr. bitter and darkforce discussing zerg vs mech, and darkforce explains how he relies on mutalisks.
Mr. Bitter: 12 weeks with the pros, fighting mech with darkforce
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-fighting-mech-with-darkforce-4887624
Although this tactic might not be as effective on shakuras where your match was played, it is a good example of relying on mutalisks against a mech based army like I discussed earlier in the thread.
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On July 24 2011 16:14 orionboss wrote:I just watched an interesting game between idra and drewbie in the first round of ipl (cant find vod). Similar to the situation you were in, the terran, drewbie, was making a heavy tank and hellion force and turtling from base to base. Idra responded by massing mutalisks (almost 30) to force the production of thors, and then researched neural parasite and broke the terran line by mind controlling the thors and fungaling the hellions while his mutas cleaned up. In addition, I found a vod of mr. bitter and darkforce discussing zerg vs mech, and darkforce explains how he relies on mutalisks. Mr. Bitter: 12 weeks with the pros, fighting mech with darkforce http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/12-weeks-with-the-pros-fighting-mech-with-darkforce-4887624Although this tactic might not be as effective on shakuras where your match was played, it is a good example of relying on mutalisks against a mech based army like I discussed earlier in the thread.
Building mutalisks just forced a bunch of turrets, it didn't force many thors whatsoever. He also fought mutalisks via mass viking, not via Thors.
I played a second match where I tried going mutas, as well as trying to blind counter him. His playstyle is effin' ridiculous.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=222893
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yeah, I have been in this situation too (sometimes) and I remember a game on shattered temple where I did Nydus, drops, composition switches etc etc...
Lately I prefer to bunker up myself in these situations. Get like 30spines and some spores and try not to lose ground when terran starts to slowpush you with Tank/Thor/Viking (+whatever he has got, depending on how the game went before).
Then you have kind of the same situation, but you have a supply advantage, because Spines don't cost any supply and you might have 220 supply anyways.
In terms of compositions I would say tons of Infestors, and broodlords complement this pretty nicely, because you can just use their artillery range to fight back terran artillery (fungal vs vikings, Broodlords vs Tanks). Then again you want something to attack him, once he unsieges:
some ultralisks+mainly a ton of stuff (roaches only when he has a lot of hellions, as they are supplyinefficient).
Gameplaywise I would also consider sacrificing some queens once you are maxed on larva, as they use up like 10supply and maybe replace them with 2-3extra hatches. But this once again depends on the amount of ressources you have at that time. If you don't have a lot of minerals left on your patches, I thikn it is better to keep the queens and the money.
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On July 26 2011 01:37 Big J wrote:
yeah, I have been in this situation too (sometimes) and I remember a game on shattered temple where I did Nydus, drops, composition switches etc etc...
Lately I prefer to bunker up myself in these situations. Get like 30spines and some spores and try not to lose ground when terran starts to slowpush you with Tank/Thor/Viking (+whatever he has got, depending on how the game went before).
Then you have kind of the same situation, but you have a supply advantage, because Spines don't cost any supply and you might have 220 supply anyways.
In terms of compositions I would say tons of Infestors, and broodlords complement this pretty nicely, because you can just use their artillery range to fight back terran artillery (fungal vs vikings, Broodlords vs Tanks). Then again you want something to attack him, once he unsieges:
some ultralisks+mainly a ton of stuff (roaches only when he has a lot of hellions, as they are supplyinefficient).
Gameplaywise I would also consider sacrificing some queens once you are maxed on larva, as they use up like 10supply and maybe replace them with 2-3extra hatches. But this once again depends on the amount of ressources you have at that time. If you don't have a lot of minerals left on your patches, I thikn it is better to keep the queens and the money.
He doesn't attempt to start to slowpush until he has all 6 bases. =/. He doesn't even build Thors beyond 2-3. It's purely viking. Fungaling the vikings doesn't do much either when you can't actually take out the vikings  . Sure, you might get off a good fungal, then the infestors insta explode from the tanks... Idk I just didn't like trying to use infestor/corrupter/BL, didn't work well for me and I abandoned it quite quickly.
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So a lot of vikings, 3 thors, the rest tanks/hellions?? Sounds like any zerg army can beat this. Lots of vikings means a much smaller ground army.
I saw Trump turtle vs a Zerg for almost 2 hrs. He had a maxed mech army, tank,thor,viking,hellion with mass OC (so few scvs, probably 170+ supply mech army) and his army still got wiped out easily by mass ling, ultra, some infestor, and broodlords. It's all about engaging them as they move out. You need something to deny sight.
Infestor corrupter BL is one of the best combos and can tech switch to anything afterwards. Even noob plat league zergs try to go for it for the ez win. With enough infestors you can always take out the vikings. Vikings are armored.
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On July 26 2011 04:10 vnlegend wrote:
So a lot of vikings, 3 thors, the rest tanks/hellions?? Sounds like any zerg army can beat this. Lots of vikings means a much smaller ground army.
I saw Trump turtle vs a Zerg for almost 2 hrs. He had a maxed mech army, tank,thor,viking,hellion with mass OC (so few scvs, probably 170+ supply mech army) and his army still got wiped out easily by mass ling, ultra, some infestor, and broodlords. It's all about engaging them as they move out. You need something to deny sight.
Infestor corrupter BL is one of the best combos and can tech switch to anything afterwards. Even noob plat league zergs try to go for it for the ez win. With enough infestors you can always take out the vikings. Vikings are armored.
To all the people saying "large amount of vikings means smaller ground army!" stop posting. You're not welcome because it becomes apparent you didn't watch the initial replay. Generic advice isn't useful at all, I know how to counter generic mech play. This person had enough orbitals to sack his entire SCV line completely (exception of gas mining) to continually mule. Thus, his ground army was not weaker. He puts up a huge wall with orbitals, turrets, etc. so your ultras can't get in. He gets ghosts for EMP + snipe. He does NOT stagger his tank line, it's all around the same area, so any infestor trying to get in range is immediately shot. He gets multiple sensor towers and a fuckton of turrets + vikings make dropping even iwth 25+ overlords futile.
I don't really care about you watching Trump turtle, to be frank.
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EPT
