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Note, this is the first help topic I've made.
I have a very particular question. What composition should you make lategame vs a heavy turtle Terran on a map like shakuras which isn't very open? Shakuras is a very strong map for mech, and in this match even though I tried to break him a few times via drops and nydus, I was never able to. Instead, I generally just tried to macro up and outexpand him. Unfortunately, once you get to 6 bases on that map, you need to start moving towards him, which just wasn't possible. Maybe it's lategame map imbalance, who knows, that's not exactly the issue I have.
My issue was I couldn't find a unit composition to break his. I simply didn't know what to build! He ended up turtling with mass orbital commands, mass turrets, mass siege tanks, and mass viking. And I mean a ton of vikings, to the point where Broodlords weren't even an option. He would continue massing them even if I wasn't making air. I couldn't touch him, as siege tanks outranged everything on the ground, and vikings outranged everything on the air. Even though I had around 5k/5k, it wouldn't matter what I would make.
I realize I didn't play the best - also, there were a few timings I could have better exploited to punish him. However, assuming that I instead chose a macro route instead of trying to punish him, what else should I have done? His army gets larger and larger when he eventually throws away all his scvs and can mine purely off mules with around 10 orbitals. He simply starves me.
TL;dr: Had a ton of trouble lategame vs a camping Terran who went mass viking/mass siege tank with some thors and BF hellions sprinkled in. Had plenty of cash, plenty of larvae, but didn't know what to make and was eventually starved. What is the ideal unit composition vs this?
Since you can't upload reps on TL.net, I posted it on GR.org, here's the OP I posted there.
This is a lategame ZvT I played where my opponent had opened 15CC, and proceeded to make a few more orbitals without me noticing. I reacted to the 15CC by mass droning and taking multiple bases, thinking I had a bigger lead than before. We've played before and he's opened BF hellion, and I've been experimenting with midgame Roach pushes (not midgame, not even a timing attack, just to fend off any hellions or early pushes).
Long story short, he ends up going a mass orbital strategy and heavy camping, defending with mass turrets, tanks, and vikings, with BF hellions to counter any lings. We end up pretty much splitting the map, with me trying to find ways to crack him open. I'm currently a Grandmaster Zerg rank 149, and this player is a high masters I encountered on ladder. I actually would like suggestions on how I could have handled the lategame better, I think dropping both the 5o'clock main and his 1o'clock main simultaneously could have yielded better results. I realize also I missed a timing when he first took his 6o'clock base, and I'm aware of that. But assuming I don't manage to hit every timing, any suggestions beyond that?
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=222137
Played him a second time, attempting to blind counter him with the advice given in this thread.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=222893
All I can say is BLEHHHHH.
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I think mutas would have done better than corruptors against the vikings because they can deal with the heavy siege tanks and hellions count as well.
I also thought that how you attack with your broodlords were a bit wasteful, I think it is better to attack through the main ground rather than trying to break his bases.
Most often what I saw was you sending in lots of broods trying to take down his bases along with mass corruptors supports which got shut down by missile turrets and thors.
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After watching your replay I see several things that I believe you could improve upon to help you in this match up.
When I see a terran turtle up and mech, especially on a map like Shakuras, I try to avoid relying on early and mid game roaches for pressure. Although you do successfully drop his main several times to do damage, I believe that spending your gas on roaches to attack a sieged terran is not very cost effective. Instead of spending gas on swarms of roaches, I have much more success spending it on mutalisk.
There are several reasons I believe mutas are better in the mid game, which better prepares you for the late game against terran.
1. having large numbers of mutas can limit the number of seige tanks (which demolish your army if their numbers get to large)
2. the mutas keep him in his base and make it more difficult for him to secure additional bases (while you can secure your own)
3. forces him to build thors and turrets, which continues to lower his siege tank numbers
With this said about your transition into the late game, my advice for you in regard to your late game strategy is not to change the unit composition of your army at all. Instead, I think you should think about how you use your army more effectively.
An example in your game of poor army control and movement is your attack on his bottom expansion around the 31 minute mark. After you destroy the planetary fortress with a few ultras and broodlords, he moves his tanks force to defend the ramp towards his other bases. You then decided to drop three nydus worms and storm his ramp with ultras and roaches, losing 60 supply for a few tanks.
The mech army is EXTREMELY strong in a straight up fight, and you will lose that fight every time. However, your advantage lies in your army's mobility. Instead of putting three nydus networks in an already destroyed base, attack his now vulnerable main and production buildings, attack his front as he pulls back to defend, retreat before he can siege. Don't attack into chokes; don't attack his army straight on.
Other small tactics you could use to help you include infested terran bombs on sieged tanks to cause splash damage or dropping zerglings onto sieged tanks for the same effect.
I believe with a few small changes to your army positioning and movements you will be winning theses games easily. To quickly summarize my advice: don't change your unit composition, instead rely on your mobility to attack the terran where his tanks aren't, and be ready to swarm him when he unsieges.
Good luck with your future games 
p.s. hopefully I don't come across as someone who thinks they understand everything about this (because I don't), just want to throw my opinion out there
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On July 20 2011 16:40 orionboss wrote:After watching your replay I see several things that I believe you could improve upon to help you in this match up. When I see a terran turtle up and mech, especially on a map like Shakuras, I try to avoid relying on early and mid game roaches for pressure. Although you do successfully drop his main several times to do damage, I believe that spending your gas on roaches to attack a sieged terran is not very cost effective. Instead of spending gas on swarms of roaches, I have much more success spending it on mutalisk. There are several reasons I believe mutas are better in the mid game, which better prepares you for the late game against terran. 1. having large numbers of mutas can limit the number of seige tanks (which demolish your army if their numbers get to large) 2. the mutas keep him in his base and make it more difficult for him to secure additional bases (while you can secure your own) 3. forces him to build thors and turrets, which continues to lower his siege tank numbers With this said about your transition into the late game, my advice for you in regard to your late game strategy is not to change the unit composition of your army at all. Instead, I think you should think about how you use your army more effectively. An example in your game of poor army control and movement is your attack on his bottom expansion around the 31 minute mark. After you destroy the planetary fortress with a few ultras and broodlords, he moves his tanks force to defend the ramp towards his other bases. You then decided to drop three nydus worms and storm his ramp with ultras and roaches, losing 60 supply for a few tanks. The mech army is EXTREMELY strong in a straight up fight, and you will lose that fight every time. However, your advantage lies in your army's mobility. Instead of putting three nydus networks in an already destroyed base, attack his now vulnerable main and production buildings, attack his front as he pulls back to defend, retreat before he can siege. Don't attack into chokes; don't attack his army straight on. Other small tactics you could use to help you include infested terran bombs on sieged tanks to cause splash damage or dropping zerglings onto sieged tanks for the same effect. I believe with a few small changes to your army positioning and movements you will be winning theses games easily. To quickly summarize my advice: don't change your unit composition, instead rely on your mobility to attack the terran where his tanks aren't, and be ready to swarm him when he unsieges. Good luck with your future games p.s. hopefully I don't come across as someone who thinks they understand everything about this (because I don't), just want to throw my opinion out there
You really think muta transition would have been good at that point? I never have any success with muta vs mech, and he built just loads of turrets. I'm talking about 30+. I felt I wouldn't be able to get anywhere with them, and I assume for cost corrupters fair better than mutas, but I'm not sure. He did have thors however which also made me wary. Thors + mass turrets will shut down mutas, I would think, since he did sprinkle them in. Like I said, I'm not sure. But keeping him in his base was never the problem - he never left!
Concerning storming the ramp, they were unsieged and I highly overestimated how good unsieged tanks are. I know their DPS is higher, but I figured with a decent number of roaches they'd be efficient - I was wrong. Also seeing them all clumped made me want to hit them iwth my ultras sooo badly.
I couldn't do Zergling bombs at any point in teh game due to the 40+ vikings going around.  .
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On July 20 2011 16:53 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 16:40 orionboss wrote:After watching your replay I see several things that I believe you could improve upon to help you in this match up. When I see a terran turtle up and mech, especially on a map like Shakuras, I try to avoid relying on early and mid game roaches for pressure. Although you do successfully drop his main several times to do damage, I believe that spending your gas on roaches to attack a sieged terran is not very cost effective. Instead of spending gas on swarms of roaches, I have much more success spending it on mutalisk. There are several reasons I believe mutas are better in the mid game, which better prepares you for the late game against terran. 1. having large numbers of mutas can limit the number of seige tanks (which demolish your army if their numbers get to large) 2. the mutas keep him in his base and make it more difficult for him to secure additional bases (while you can secure your own) 3. forces him to build thors and turrets, which continues to lower his siege tank numbers With this said about your transition into the late game, my advice for you in regard to your late game strategy is not to change the unit composition of your army at all. Instead, I think you should think about how you use your army more effectively. An example in your game of poor army control and movement is your attack on his bottom expansion around the 31 minute mark. After you destroy the planetary fortress with a few ultras and broodlords, he moves his tanks force to defend the ramp towards his other bases. You then decided to drop three nydus worms and storm his ramp with ultras and roaches, losing 60 supply for a few tanks. The mech army is EXTREMELY strong in a straight up fight, and you will lose that fight every time. However, your advantage lies in your army's mobility. Instead of putting three nydus networks in an already destroyed base, attack his now vulnerable main and production buildings, attack his front as he pulls back to defend, retreat before he can siege. Don't attack into chokes; don't attack his army straight on. Other small tactics you could use to help you include infested terran bombs on sieged tanks to cause splash damage or dropping zerglings onto sieged tanks for the same effect. I believe with a few small changes to your army positioning and movements you will be winning theses games easily. To quickly summarize my advice: don't change your unit composition, instead rely on your mobility to attack the terran where his tanks aren't, and be ready to swarm him when he unsieges. Good luck with your future games p.s. hopefully I don't come across as someone who thinks they understand everything about this (because I don't), just want to throw my opinion out there You really think muta transition would have been good at that point? I never have any success with muta vs mech, and he built just loads of turrets. I'm talking about 30+. I felt I wouldn't be able to get anywhere with them, and I assume for cost corrupters fair better than mutas, but I'm not sure. He did have thors however which also made me wary. Thors + mass turrets will shut down mutas, I would think, since he did sprinkle them in. Like I said, I'm not sure. But keeping him in his base was never the problem - he never left! Concerning storming the ramp, they were unsieged and I highly overestimated how good unsieged tanks are. I know their DPS is higher, but I figured with a decent number of roaches they'd be efficient - I was wrong. Also seeing them all clumped made me want to hit them iwth my ultras sooo badly. I couldn't do Zergling bombs at any point in teh game due to the 40+ vikings going around. .
I personally like to rely on mutas against a terran going mech because in my experience they really help you control his army movement. I just feel like I can constantly keep a tab on where his tanks are moving and where i can poke with roaches or nydus worms. Also, terrans for some reason almost exclusively rely on thors and turrets against mutas, which limits their viking numbers and allows for a good tech switch into brood lords.
As soon as I get back to my dorm I will be able to attach a few replays
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So, a few things : regarding the vikings, well, yes, muta are much better than corrupters (the "counter guide" says so too  ).Well, the turrets remained...
The other point I wanted to say is about the "best" army composition possible if you have huge amount of minerals/gaz. I have this idea that basically, all units are more or less worth their price. So, a very "supply-effective" unit would be the best one to have in a 200/200 army, right?
Roaches cost 75/25 for 2 supply. That's bad
Hydralisks cost 100/50 for 2 supply. A bit better
Banelings cost 200/100 for 2 supply. Woohoo!
Well, I guess you still need a few ultralisks in front of your baneling army to tank the first volley of the tanks.
Edit : That's the same idea that governs the fact that in FFA, people go for a 200/200 of void rays.
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On July 20 2011 17:17 fezvez wrote:So, a few things : regarding the vikings, well, yes, muta are much better than corrupters (the "counter guide" says so too ).Well, the turrets remained... The other point I wanted to say is about the "best" army composition possible if you have huge amount of minerals/gaz. I have this idea that basically, all units are more or less worth their price. So, a very "supply-effective" unit would be the best one to have in a 200/200 army, right? Roaches cost 75/25 for 2 supply. That's bad Hydralisks cost 100/50 for 2 supply. A bit better Banelings cost 200/100 for 2 supply. Woohoo! Well, I guess you still need a few ultralisks in front of your baneling army to tank the first volley of the tanks. Edit : That's the same idea that governs the fact that in FFA, people go for a 200/200 of void rays.
manual target = byebye banelings...
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I don't understand the need to break a turtle terran, why not just let him turtle while you mine out the map and bank 783245326745327 minerals and 645634653 gas and 326453287453287453287 larva and wait for him to make a move, he cannot win if he does not attack. And when he does move out, multi pronged drops, nydus worms etc will rape his face. Obviously it's not going to benefit you to constantly throw away your expensive t3 units attacking a well defended turtle terran. Just my opinion from a terran p.o.v.
User was warned for this post
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Infestor Corruptor Broodlord. Slowly fade away your lings and replace with 200/200 infestor brood corruptor, with a small force of ling bane to handle drops, and mass spine everywhere. it'll take only a few minutes to max on Infest Brood Corrupt considering you should have 12 or 14 gases by now. It has been showcased this season in GSL that some zergs are doing a lot of nydusing in the late game, just to throw away the ling supply which is now useless.
Watch Morrow's ZvT for a fine example of this.
For all other suggestions, don't put much faith in them until the individual suggesting it provides evidence that it works in the form of pro games.
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If you are able to get a little over half the map then brood lord corruptor infestor is your best bet. Just gotta try to get some good fungals to take out groups of vikings. It really just turns into a viking, tank, infestor, ghost, corruptor, broodlord dance but from experience I've been able to at least trade evenly.
On shakuras you should try to take the top and bottom bases before the terran player. On shakuras late game is also really important to take the top and bottom middle bases before the terran so that he can't split the map evenly with you.
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Overall I simply don't understand how infestor/corrupter/broodlord would have even touched him this map. I tried it once, it didn't work super well, but vikings have such ridiculous range, and he had so many turrets to run behind. I can handle ten vikings. I can't handle 30 when 4 broodlords die in a single volley. He started building ghosts as well behind his tank lines. I'll probably try breaking the middle next time I play if the same thing happens, but still... from personal experience viking/raven shits on infestor/corrupter/BL because of PPD's and Seeker missiles (if you try to engage). And it's not like you can run when he has 30 vikings and 6 starports cranking out more regardless if you're going air or not...
On July 20 2011 23:04 BigBossX wrote:
I don't understand the need to break a turtle terran, why not just let him turtle while you mine out the map and bank 783245326745327 minerals and 645634653 gas and 326453287453287453287 larva and wait for him to make a move, he cannot win if he does not attack. And when he does move out, multi pronged drops, nydus worms etc will rape his face. Obviously it's not going to benefit you to constantly throw away your expensive t3 units attacking a well defended turtle terran. Just my opinion from a terran p.o.v.
Because if you watched the replay, it was on Shakuras Plateau, and I attempted to do exactly that, and banked around 8k/6k at one point. You can't do multipronged drops when he has literally around 30+ turrets across the maps, sensor towers, and around 30 vikings at a time.
Btw, I'm not saying it's not feasible, it just doesn't *seem* it to me. I didn't micro the greatest however, I had far too much faith in corrupters being able to take on vikings. He also slowly upgraded his vikings to 3/3 when mine were 2/0 or 3/0 so that really hurt. Was just too scared of going mutas since he had 3 Thors sprinkled in, and vs 30 vikings and 3 thors, are you going to touch him wiht mass muta?!
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On July 21 2011 01:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Overall I simply don't understand how infestor/corrupter/broodlord would have even touched him this map. I tried it once, it didn't work super well, but vikings have such ridiculous range, and he had so many turrets to run behind. I can handle ten vikings. I can't handle 30 when 4 broodlords die in a single volley. He started building ghosts as well behind his tank lines. I'll probably try breaking the middle next time I play if the same thing happens, but still... from personal experience viking/raven shits on infestor/corrupter/BL because of PPD's and Seeker missiles (if you try to engage). And it's not like you can run when he has 30 vikings and 6 starports cranking out more regardless if you're going air or not... Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 23:04 BigBossX wrote:
I don't understand the need to break a turtle terran, why not just let him turtle while you mine out the map and bank 783245326745327 minerals and 645634653 gas and 326453287453287453287 larva and wait for him to make a move, he cannot win if he does not attack. And when he does move out, multi pronged drops, nydus worms etc will rape his face. Obviously it's not going to benefit you to constantly throw away your expensive t3 units attacking a well defended turtle terran. Just my opinion from a terran p.o.v. Because if you watched the replay, it was on Shakuras Plateau, and I attempted to do exactly that, and banked around 8k/6k at one point. You can't do multipronged drops when he has literally around 30+ turrets across the maps, sensor towers, and around 30 vikings at a time. Btw, I'm not saying it's not feasible, it just doesn't *seem* it to me. I didn't micro the greatest however, I had far too much faith in corrupters being able to take on vikings. He also slowly upgraded his vikings to 3/3 when mine were 2/0 or 3/0 so that really hurt. Was just too scared of going mutas since he had 3 Thors sprinkled in, and vs 30 vikings and 3 thors, are you going to touch him wiht mass muta?!
Except people have made it work very well in pro games. Usually when this composition comes out, it destroys. Those guys are harder opponents than the guys you've tried them against. All your gripes may stem from mis-micro.
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On July 21 2011 01:59 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 01:25 FabledIntegral wrote:Overall I simply don't understand how infestor/corrupter/broodlord would have even touched him this map. I tried it once, it didn't work super well, but vikings have such ridiculous range, and he had so many turrets to run behind. I can handle ten vikings. I can't handle 30 when 4 broodlords die in a single volley. He started building ghosts as well behind his tank lines. I'll probably try breaking the middle next time I play if the same thing happens, but still... from personal experience viking/raven shits on infestor/corrupter/BL because of PPD's and Seeker missiles (if you try to engage). And it's not like you can run when he has 30 vikings and 6 starports cranking out more regardless if you're going air or not... On July 20 2011 23:04 BigBossX wrote:
I don't understand the need to break a turtle terran, why not just let him turtle while you mine out the map and bank 783245326745327 minerals and 645634653 gas and 326453287453287453287 larva and wait for him to make a move, he cannot win if he does not attack. And when he does move out, multi pronged drops, nydus worms etc will rape his face. Obviously it's not going to benefit you to constantly throw away your expensive t3 units attacking a well defended turtle terran. Just my opinion from a terran p.o.v. Because if you watched the replay, it was on Shakuras Plateau, and I attempted to do exactly that, and banked around 8k/6k at one point. You can't do multipronged drops when he has literally around 30+ turrets across the maps, sensor towers, and around 30 vikings at a time. Btw, I'm not saying it's not feasible, it just doesn't *seem* it to me. I didn't micro the greatest however, I had far too much faith in corrupters being able to take on vikings. He also slowly upgraded his vikings to 3/3 when mine were 2/0 or 3/0 so that really hurt. Was just too scared of going mutas since he had 3 Thors sprinkled in, and vs 30 vikings and 3 thors, are you going to touch him wiht mass muta?! Except people have made it work very well in pro games. Usually when this composition comes out, it destroys. Those guys are harder opponents than the guys you've tried them against. All your gripes may stem from mis-micro.
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I'm aware of what the composition does. I've played vs many top pros, please don't lecture me on that, and beaten many in ZvT. That is not my issue. If you had cared to watch the replay, which you clearly didn't, you'd realize my opponent did a build that is extremely uncommon build (midgame massing orbitals while camping behind mech, and transitioning to mass starport). Don't give me a friggin' generic composition that slaughters something like marine/tank/medivac when he didn't bulid more than 3 marines all game. Is it good to counter vikings? To a point. It's not as strong when attacking a fortified position vs a critical mass of vikings.
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Having watched the replay my feeling is you should have ignored air completely, thrown down spores and spines or used lings to deter any viking harassment, and maxed out on a ground force (I have found Ultra bane roach to be the best to break mech if resource efficiency is no matter). You threw away 50+ corruptors in 3 separate occasions there, while if you had ignored air, at least at the beginning, you can crush his land army in one go with the saved resources, and reinforce much quicker. Its hard to deal with on Shakuras because of the many high ground positions, but imo, perfectly possible to do.
Of course, that may cause him to switch to banshees or bcs, but that takes time, and you can constantly be attacking him, or switch tech to deal with the banshees and bcs.
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vs mech, you just have to abuse the fact that you can rebuild your entire army in 40 seconds and it takes the terran 3-4x longer.
so max out, save up a bunch of money and try to clear his tank count, or viking count (something like that) then abuse his composition
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I'll watch your replay when I'm home from work, but there's really no way you can lose to mech once you're on that many bases. Just build Ultras and lings and Nydus all over the place. He won't have any mobile response to Ultras - the mech will be too slow and he won't have stim or upgrades on his marauders. And if for some reason you decide to have a 20 minute no-rush game and you really end up with 8k minerals in the bank and a split map, build some extra overlords, prep a killer drop, put the empty overlords in front of the full ones, and drop ultras on his maxed army. They'll die to the splash, yours and theirs, and with the way that Vikings overkill, he won't get off more than one or two volleys, killing only a handful of empty overlords. You remax instantly and win the game, easy-peasy.
User was warned for this post
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On July 21 2011 03:13 PanzerKing wrote:
I'll watch your replay when I'm home from work, but there's really no way you can lose to mech once you're on that many bases. Just build Ultras and lings and Nydus all over the place. He won't have any mobile response to Ultras - the mech will be too slow and he won't have stim or upgrades on his marauders. And if for some reason you decide to have a 20 minute no-rush game and you really end up with 8k minerals in the bank and a split map, build some extra overlords, prep a killer drop, put the empty overlords in front of the full ones, and drop ultras on his maxed army. They'll die to the splash, yours and theirs, and with the way that Vikings overkill, he won't get off more than one or two volleys, killing only a handful of empty overlords. You remax instantly and win the game, easy-peasy.
He didn't build any rax units. It was pure tank with a few hellions in front to buffer the incoming army while he sieged. He slowly crept up on the map. I was on 7 base at one point (well, main was mined out). I did try drop play, as well as nydusing. You have to realize the map is Shakuras, so it's not hard to split map. He had mass missile turrets as well and sensor towers. Drops stopped working when he got a massive viking count. I'm talking about 30+ vikings. His ground army was still strong since he sacked all his SCVs as he was running around 8 orbitals.
There's only two routes to drop in the entire map. Through the top or bottom. There's nothing *to* drop in the middle. And with sensor towers, vikings can rip apart my ovies. I doubt the play is viable on maps like Metal or Tal'Darim.
On July 21 2011 03:06 PhiliBiRD wrote:
vs mech, you just have to abuse the fact that you can rebuild your entire army in 40 seconds and it takes the terran 3-4x longer.
so max out, save up a bunch of money and try to clear his tank count, or viking count (something like that) then abuse his composition
He had enough production to remax at near the same rate I could.
When you're on 6port+ and 8facts (some with reactor on ports + facts), with a single production round you can replenish 40-50 supply. When your army doesn't consist of SCVs, you're not losing more than 50 supply anyways in a single go, especially when you have a ton of static defense as well.
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On July 20 2011 17:17 fezvez wrote:So, a few things : regarding the vikings, well, yes, muta are much better than corrupters (the "counter guide" says so too ).Well, the turrets remained... The other point I wanted to say is about the "best" army composition possible if you have huge amount of minerals/gaz. I have this idea that basically, all units are more or less worth their price. So, a very "supply-effective" unit would be the best one to have in a 200/200 army, right? Roaches cost 75/25 for 2 supply. That's bad Hydralisks cost 100/50 for 2 supply. A bit better Banelings cost 200/100 for 2 supply. Woohoo! Well, I guess you still need a few ultralisks in front of your baneling army to tank the first volley of the tanks. Edit : That's the same idea that governs the fact that in FFA, people go for a 200/200 of void rays.
Just banelings are horrible against breaking tank lines.... that was horrible advice; its the same as throwing free money at the Terran. Only thing i would see breaking it would be Ultralisk crackling, you need something to tank the damage (ultras) and something to get up there quick to kill the tanks (zerglings).
To break what you were talking about.... I would've definitely went infestor broodlord. Use the broodlords to snipe off tanks, if the vikings come, fungal them as they should be stacked if they're trying to target your BLs...
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On July 21 2011 03:47 DustinQQ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 17:17 fezvez wrote:So, a few things : regarding the vikings, well, yes, muta are much better than corrupters (the "counter guide" says so too ).Well, the turrets remained... The other point I wanted to say is about the "best" army composition possible if you have huge amount of minerals/gaz. I have this idea that basically, all units are more or less worth their price. So, a very "supply-effective" unit would be the best one to have in a 200/200 army, right? Roaches cost 75/25 for 2 supply. That's bad Hydralisks cost 100/50 for 2 supply. A bit better Banelings cost 200/100 for 2 supply. Woohoo! Well, I guess you still need a few ultralisks in front of your baneling army to tank the first volley of the tanks. Edit : That's the same idea that governs the fact that in FFA, people go for a 200/200 of void rays. Just banelings are horrible against breaking tank lines.... that was horrible advice; its the same as throwing free money at the Terran. Only thing i would see breaking it would be Ultralisk crackling, you need something to tank the damage (ultras) and something to get up there quick to kill the tanks (zerglings). To break what you were talking about.... I would've definitely went infestor broodlord. Use the broodlords to snipe off tanks, if the vikings come, fungal them as they should be stacked if they're trying to target your BLs...
Did you watch the rep? .
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On July 21 2011 03:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 03:13 PanzerKing wrote:
I'll watch your replay when I'm home from work, but there's really no way you can lose to mech once you're on that many bases. Just build Ultras and lings and Nydus all over the place. He won't have any mobile response to Ultras - the mech will be too slow and he won't have stim or upgrades on his marauders. And if for some reason you decide to have a 20 minute no-rush game and you really end up with 8k minerals in the bank and a split map, build some extra overlords, prep a killer drop, put the empty overlords in front of the full ones, and drop ultras on his maxed army. They'll die to the splash, yours and theirs, and with the way that Vikings overkill, he won't get off more than one or two volleys, killing only a handful of empty overlords. You remax instantly and win the game, easy-peasy. He didn't build any rax units. It was pure tank with a few hellions in front to buffer the incoming army while he sieged. He slowly crept up on the map. I was on 7 base at one point (well, main was mined out). I did try drop play, as well as nydusing. You have to realize the map is Shakuras, so it's not hard to split map. He had mass missile turrets as well and sensor towers. Drops stopped working when he got a massive viking count. I'm talking about 30+ vikings. His ground army was still strong since he sacked all his SCVs as he was running around 8 orbitals. There's only two routes to drop in the entire map. Through the top or bottom. There's nothing *to* drop in the middle. And with sensor towers, vikings can rip apart my ovies. I doubt the play is viable on maps like Metal or Tal'Darim. Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 03:06 PhiliBiRD wrote:
vs mech, you just have to abuse the fact that you can rebuild your entire army in 40 seconds and it takes the terran 3-4x longer.
so max out, save up a bunch of money and try to clear his tank count, or viking count (something like that) then abuse his composition He had enough production to remax at near the same rate I could. When you're on 6port+ and 8facts (some with reactor on ports + facts), with a single production round you can replenish 40-50 supply. When your army doesn't consist of SCVs, you're not losing more than 50 supply anyways in a single go, especially when you have a ton of static defense as well.
If you have 8k minerals in the bank, you can drop against 30 vikings just as easily as you can against 3 vikings. Make 20 extra ovies and sac them as a shield for your ultras. You're only going to lose a few before your drop is on top of him. I mean, he can't put those vikings on your half of the map. Fungal growth will shred them apart if he moves them more than a few units of distance from his siege tanks. So he gets a couple volleys from his 30 vikings, most of which is wasted on overkill, then you drop on top of him. Not in his base - literally directly on top of his army. The ultra splash damage is ridiculous, and so is the splash his tanks do to each other.
I remember Idra doing the same against some Werra guy on Metalopolis ages ago, close to the end of the beta. Idra crushed his 2-base push and instead of just killing him, let the guy take half the map just to show how much better Z's late game is. This guy built a ton of turrets and stacked a huge 3/3 mech army on the gold. Idra dropped Ultras on it and killed it effortlessly. There's a reason people aren't trying to split-map mech against Z. Mech wins with timing pushes before Z can field a large tier 3 army, not in a super late-game scenario.
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EPT
