EPT[G] Doc's Somewhat Definitive Guide to TvZ - Page 3
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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minimalistic
Hungary157 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
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1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
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Haegr9599
United States210 Posts
Just a quick question, what time do you tend to get medivacs out for each of your gameplans? or is it just purely situation, and if it is, what are the triggers for ? | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 07 2011 20:31 dementrio wrote: I have a question: you seem to dislike factory openings. If your opponent knows this, do you still think it's smart for him to open hatch first? How do you claim your natural when going gasless against speed openings? I've played a lot of games where my practice partners elected for gas pool instead of hatch first. If I'm doing a reaper opening, I do the BF helion transition negating any map control and presence they wouild have gotten and force either spines or roaches. If they go gas pool after a 2rax, you can still pressure once you have enough marines or you can just transition in to BF helions, forcing roaches most of the time. IMO roaches are damn easy to play against compared to mutas and BF helion transition in to double fact tank is quite easy as all the infrastrucutre is already put in place for you. On July 07 2011 20:31 Big J wrote: OK... you are my favorite terran right now Just reading what you write... everything is so true!+ Show Spoiler + Don't be scared to go in to the late game against any race. I hope to turn you cheesy noobies in to macro monsters. + Show Spoiler + A lot of people I feel just overcommit to attacking Zerg. I feel once people move out they say okay you're going to die now. The problem is, you can't just immediately run up to zerg and siege them + Show Spoiler + Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes lategame for us zerg players so easy, we get ahead after every push we hold, because terrans tend to overcommit to everything. I really fear fighting good macro terrans, that never lose units when pushing out, taking mapcontrol, and then returning home and in the end they are even in the workercount, but have 4-5 extra mules. Heh that's another point I forgot to add. You don't want to lose any mech while pushing. It's a lot easier to reinforce Z units than it is mech units as part of your bio mech. On July 07 2011 20:37 Big J wrote: as zerg you always want to open hatch first if it is not something like 11rax/11rax, simply because of the creep spread (for queens, spinecrawlers and also slowlings). I think Idra said this once: "The best defense (in ZvT) is to get the hatch down as fast as possible." Gas pool is fine, Nestea has shown that a lot. You get behind in economy (the Z) in the beginning but then drone like made men later on. On July 07 2011 22:46 Big J wrote: + Show Spoiler + Jinro did this in his up/down matches against Zenio and Coca. Killed the hatch with a 2rax, and both came back I think. I have no season ticket for gomtv to rewatch it but I think those two games are pretty much the best examples for a terran that goes 2rax against a zerg to kill the hatch, brings a lot of SCVs but doesn't really get an advantage of it. also if he pulls a lot of SCVs (6+) you can simply sac the expo and deny reinforcements with lings(if you catch some of them rallying... even better), keep ling production up, kill his cointain and the SCVs and be ahead with something like 15vs10 workers. (he can't expand very fast with so many SCVs pulled) ofc if you simply let him build bunkers, lose the hatch and then attempt to kill bunkers with a ton of repairing SCVs and like 10+marines around you are dead... I'm not saying I recommend this stuff (being a zerg myself), but any 2rax that has a lot of eco behind it is holdable and any 2rax that doesn't is recoverable, if you exectue your defense right. (except for retarted rush distances like metalopolis close and other imba stuff like that...) I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Can you post some links or vids of what it is you're talking about? On July 08 2011 01:28 Huggerz wrote: Brilliant guide [: couple of holes but I'm sure you'll fill them. Discussed all the strong viable builds imo, but I am wondering, have you tried early drop play before? Reactor for when starport finishes, 16 marines with stim & combat shield dropped behind mineral line? From what I have seen it can set the zerg way behind against pure ling or just low baneling count. Bomber vs Destiny g1 the most recent example I have seen. And also, what do you think about tackling infestors with banshees instead of ghosts? Cloaked if resources allow. Infestors die super fast and with simple splitting you can force a lot of fungals. Follow up with marine & tank and can clear out lingbling quickly and snipe hatcheries. With enough infestors killed/fungal energy lost can protect banshees with marines quickly. Can easily force sporecrawlers at expansions too. Can lead into battlecruisers which do amazing if zerg does not have corruptors. This is in my experience playing against master zergs. Ghost play to me is weak against the zerg just flooding lings/banelings. It's also absolutely perfect against ultralisks if for some reason your opponent wants to lose the game. I love the tip you give near the end about just dropping everywhere once you see greater spire. A lot of people need to know about this I haven't seen the Bomber v Destiny but I discussed a reactor starport build in the guide. I don't have combat shields but rather only stim with my drop timing. The reactor starport is very strong but has its weaknesses, namely baneling busts as you have no tanks out for a while. I'll post some more replays in a bit. If you drop and a Z isn't prepared, you can flat out win the game if not do terrible damage. You get map control and pick off any stray ovies. Good build. Ghosts are better for the purpose of taking out infestors for a few reasons. For one, you're not going to just go sacking ghosts trying to snipe off whatever infestor they have. Two, they can still have muta + infestor. Three, you need ghosts to take out BL in the late game anyways. Four, you have a bunch of rax and generally only one starport. Ghosts make a LOT more sense, banshees seem silly. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 08 2011 01:41 Ahelvin wrote: Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/. For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push. But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win. Nukes are fine really late game v Z. I find that there are more important things you need to spend your money on first. My priority late game, after getting all my infrastructure and bases up is 1. Couple more OCs then sack SCVs for bigger standing army. 2. Planetary fortresses for defense 3. Few more OCs 4. Nukes. | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
2)What do you think about reactor hellion? It is my standard atm, and i picked it up from Kas replays so its got to be good 3)Please make such a guide for tvp, we terran could use them standard plays a LOT. 4) Is there a safe 1 rax FE for tvt? and what do you do tvp right now? reactor first two rax with expo after first/second marauder another barracks then reactor starport? Also how do you feel about 3 gate expand against 1rax FE in this MU. Is the FE worth it at all? | ||
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Huggerz
Great Britain919 Posts
On July 08 2011 02:11 imbecile wrote: Well, I'm aware I'm bad. The point I'm trying to make though is: Tank/Marine/Medivac is as standard as it gets. And adding ghosts and nukes isn't that expensive... well I stopped reading there | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 08 2011 05:40 TheAwesomeAll wrote: 1) Thanks a lot my tournament play will benefit greatly from this. 2)What do you think about reactor hellion? It is my standard atm, and i picked it up from Kas replays so its got to be good 3)Please make such a guide for tvp, we terran could use them standard plays a LOT. 4) Is there a safe 1 rax FE for tvt? and what do you do tvp right now? reactor first two rax with expo after first/second marauder another barracks then reactor starport? Also how do you feel about 3 gate expand against 1rax FE in this MU. Is the FE worth it at all? 2. Reactor helion is good on certain wide maps where it's hard for Z to defend their entire nat such as metal. I feel, you're more likely to damage with reaper in to blue flame or 2rax and reactor helion can get you behind very easily if Z can defend your helion pressure without losing any drones. It's not bad by any means. I use a reactor helion expand from time to time. I'll include that as well in my guide later on as well, reactor helion expand or 1-1-1 super aggro. The thing is, if you don't do crippling damage with any build that delays your expansion, Z is FAR ahead as he'll have mutas out and you usually won't have stim, marines, medivacs and be able to support turrets. Look at the games from SC2 release to Decemberish, that's pretty much what happened everytime and man it was FRUSTRATING. Reactor helion does no damage, banshee minimal. Z gets mutas and then while you're taking your nat, he's taking his 3rd and has 30 mutas forcing you back everytime you move out. It's definitely important to keep this build in the metagame as well to keep Z on their feet. 3. Hehe I pretty much nogas FE v P but often swithc builds depending on maps. My TvP used to be terrible and I just spent a month fixing it to the point where I was beating Top GM (something I wouldn't have ever imagned a month ago). I'll consider it but I still feel like I need some more time developing my TvP. 4. I often nogas FE in TvT in to double gas then another rax, fact, starport, tank. It's safe but T can still punish this with early game reaper pressure as marines are scarce and if you misread a situation, you can flat out lose. If you're looking for safe 1rax FE though, that would be it. TvP I either nogas FE, marauder expand, 2rax reactor first, cloak banshee in to double expand (one hidden, MVP style) depending on map and positions and what I feel like doing. Yeah the FE is worth it v a 3gate expand, why not? You'll probably get contained but that's fine. Make sure you cut scvs once you're saturated at your main, get stim and reactor medivac and then push out. P will often have delayed tech which you have to take advantage of in that small time frame. | ||
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imbecile
563 Posts
Sure. For the cost of 5-6 tanks you get it all up, the ghosts, the 2 academies, cloak and the nukes. And if you wanna get 6 tanks out in that time you need to get all the ghosts and nukes up, you'd need a second factory. Defensively 12 tanks are not much better than 6 behind a wall. And offensively they are not faster as well. More tanks are nice ... but they don't force the zerg to completely change his playstyle. All he needs is more of the same ... and if you don't wanna lose them to muta or lings, you have to push very slowly while the zerg can macro up in peace. While 6 tanks can shoot at creep tumors and lings at best, 2 ghosts can already wipe out production and economy or tech. | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
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DoomInASuit
United States23 Posts
now im struggling with protoss and destroying zergs ha | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Sure. For the cost of 5-6 tanks you get it all up, the ghosts, the 2 academies, cloak and the nukes. And if you wanna get 6 tanks out in that time you need to get all the ghosts and nukes up, you'd need a second factory. Defensively 12 tanks are not much better than 6 behind a wall. And offensively they are not faster as well. First off, stop and never try to try this. 12 tanks over 6 is life and death against zerg ground. Ghosts and nukes have no place until infestors/tier3 and a stalemate, respectively. And yes, 12 tanks over 6 is a LOT faster. You can 2-4 tank hop at a time, and still have 8-10 tanks sieged. 6 you can only do 1-2 at a time. Dude this 2 fac close position. I tried it on shakuras, and on XNC following a 11/12 rax (I'm almost 1.7k master, but a habitual 1-1-1'er in every MU) and even tho I suck with 2 raxing, that tank follow up is a 100% safe IMO to any cheese all in against my FE. The push? Insane how hard it hits lol Dude even did a fast lair + speed banes into mass muta. Easy peasy take out his third, and push his nat hard as he hits me with mutas. Makes it 1 base zerg vs 2 base terran, just gotta survive muta play. I feel the damage if you control and hop well is like... definite taking out an army/base,. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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