|
Well, somewhat definitive guide to Marine Tank anyways. Last updated Aug. 3rd, 2011. See changes/additions.
History + Show Spoiler + July 7, 2011 - Added map specific trick on Tal'darim and Metalopolis July 7, 2011 - Added Marine Splitting Guide video in splitting section and posted again in external links. July 8, 2011 - Added 6 more replays July 12, 2011 - Updated the midgame compositions and responses section. I think a lot of guys really wanted and will like this one. July 12, 2011 - Adding dropping tip video. You can find it in the dropping section and external links. July 21, 2011 - Added VODs section with 2 vods. Aug 3rd, 2011 - Added VOD of microing against Z infestor BL ultra in VOD section. Added reactor helion expand opener in opener section. Added slayers style transition off of reactor helion expand in opener section. Added slayers style transition off of 1rax reaper expand.
Introduction
I've noticed that for a long time that players, especially lower ranked players, have a hard time against Z. I'm lucky in the sense that I've had lots of good zerg practice partners to play with and talk with on mumble since December, perfecting builds, micro techniques, timings etc.. Before that...shit I don't remember what I used to do. Reactor helion run bys taking out all their drones and then macroing up a mech ball is all I remember. I recall looking at pros playing in those days and saying 'this is fucking stupid, you let zerg get maxed and then try to push and if you get stopped, you're left trying to remax while zerg just expands some more and remaxes instantly'. It wasn't until FoxeR, MarineKing, one of my favourite players, started showing that marines are good units (yeah who woulda thunk it). It was then where I started trying to develop a standard, non gimicky way to play and I've been practicing that style ever since.
I'm currently 1900+ Masters on NA ladder. I strongly believe that I should be GM but for a long time, I couldn't beat Protoss. While my TvT and TvZ were at 70 and 80%+ respectively, my TvP was around 10-20%. Yeah, seriously. I've since gotten my TvP a LOT better (but am now trying to learn to play against Terran Mech TvT ). I have some replays where I feel I absolutely clown grandmaster Z players, and you'll see those. I wish I could play more often so I wouldn't have to master playing against 1 race, then suck against another, then master another, then suck against another. Oh the woes of working 2 jobs.
Some Notes Before I get Started
+ Show Spoiler +Don't be scared to go in to the late game against any race. I hope to turn you cheesy noobies in to macro monsters.
Playing marine tank requires a lot of APM. You need to be able to drop while moving out your army, micro your marines while macroing, split, focus fire and always be looking at the minimap and your army. You likely will not master this style in a day. It took me a long time myself and lots of games with practice partners to finally get it, though, it is definitely possible. The skills you learn while playing this style will make you a better player all around so keep at it.
You're going to notice this style is very dynamic and, from the way I play it, quite reactionary. Build order transitions will depend on lots of factors but once you get the basic reasoning behind certain decisions, the matchup will make a LOT more sense.
You can still do 1 base all ins and cloak banshee rushes and whatever you like to keep the metagame fresh and the Zerg guessing. Again, the beauty, and what IdrA complains about oh so much is that you can't really scout Terran but only extrapolate from the minimal stuff you see. I personally do such builds very rarely.
A lot of people I feel just overcommit to attacking Zerg. I feel once people move out they say okay you're going to die now. The problem is, you can't just immediately run up to zerg and siege them. You have to go through creep first. Also, from the time you move out, you have a sort of timer ticking against you. The longer you take, the more time zerg will have to reinforce. If you're just sitting in the middle of the map like a derp for minutes, don't be surprised when Z just has mass ling bane muta that just rolls over your small army while on creep. Lings are completely different on and off creep. I remember seeing the analysis where 50 lings off creep v 25 marines get demolished but the lings win when it's 50 lings v 25 marines on creep. You have less time to react and you'll be splashing yourself if not focus firing faster. You can't outrun banes and it's harder to reinforce. Either make your push a crippling/killing blow or get the fuck out after taking out creep. Recompose and go again after the creep has receeded some. In the meantime, you can drop and clear towers keeping yourself mobile. If you're scared of falling back, you've either pushed too far or you just aren't experienced enough. The first one is unforgivable, the latter is fine. Scan where you think the zerg army will be coming from (usually right infront of your tanks and marines), unsiege and start moving back towards your main to regroup. You'll either see: nothing come in to scan view OR:the entire swarm coming for you. If swarm coming, just siege up and Z will probably run away.
Also, against muta ling bling, your army scales better the larger it gets and muta ling bling becomes grossly inefficient if T is positioned correctly. If possible just try to drop as much as possible while taking out creep and maintaining map control before you attack a muta ling bling player. Z also maxes out way faster than you.
I had the common courtesy to use the latest patch replays so you don't have to logout everytime you want to watch something.
Micro + Macro Tips
+ Show Spoiler +Focus Firing+ Show Spoiler +Marines + medis on one hotkey, tanks on another. No exceptions.
I use: 1 for MMM 2 for tanks 3 for ghosts, vikings until I get them 4 production 5 CCs 6 dropship/vikings when I get them 7 dropship 0 for Engibays and Armories My hands are small or I'd use 8 and 9.
You ABSOLUTELY need to be able to focus fire banelings with tanks. If you can focus fire banes, you won't even need to split. A lot of players I see (and I used to do this myself, heh) was just go psycho splitting my marines the second I saw banes. What would then happen is, I'd run behind my tanks just clicking splitting furiously (I have some nasty splits btw, level 18 on marine split challenge, come at me). Lings would swarm my tanks, banelings still rolling towards my marines, mutas would take out my tanks, marines still splitting. Once I'm done seperating each individual marine, I'd take a look at my tanks all my mech would be dead, he'd save all his mutas + some lings and banes so I'd have to fall back without proper medivac and mech support. I'd repeat this over and over until Z finally got a hive tech army and I'd lose. Focus firing banes will make it so your marines can support your tanks longer without having to start splitting. Also, if a Z is putting lings on one hotkey and banes on another, often, you can just get all the banes with a few tank shots cause they'll be clumped.
How do we focus fire? Press your tank hotkey while seiged, right click a bane, hold shift and then right click like mad on every bane you can see. The most optimal way to focus fire would be to focus fire banes that are at least 2 radii apart and not just banes that are right next to each other. Note: Your tanks do NOT overkill even when focus firing. I actually did not know that and was wary of focus firing after I had 3+ tanks. WHY DIDNT ANYONE TELL ME? Basically, the problem in BW was that if you selected used your hotkey for your tanks to focus fire goons, ALL 12 tanks will kill 1 goon. If 1 zealot dropped on to your tanks, ALL tanks will fire and kill that zealot. In SC2, if a marine is dropped on a clump of tanks, 2 tanks will fire. If you focus fire a bane with 10 tanks, only 1 will fire. If you focus fire 10 banes, all 10 will fire and kill those 10 banes (while splashing the surrounding area).
You also need to try and focus fire mutas anytime you have a group of marines attacking just mutas e.g. when you drop.
Try and focus down lings towards the center of the pack rather than allowing your tanks to autoshoot whenever possible if you're going up against just lings. Splitting+ Show Spoiler +Not as necessary as you may think. Your first priority should be focus firing, then splitting unless banes catch you off guard, then split away. There's a guide describing a patrol method at: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206208Personally, I don't like this method. I prefer splitting by hand as, if all you know is the patrol method and lings and banes catch you off guard, you're losing all your shit. Manual splitting is just better. Practice it both in game for the real situations and on the micro map "Marine Split Challenge" made by Griffith. You generally want to stim and move in the direction parallel and opposite the direction the banelings are coming from while splitting marines furthest from the banelings away at a 45 degree angle. You don't want to move your marines away too far or you'll jhust have ran and not shot at all and to kill banelings, you actually need to shoot. Here is a guide on how to split your marines, made by me. Dropping+ Show Spoiler +Dropping is going to be used differently depending on what Z is doing. If Z is going an infestor or roach style, you want to drop incessantly as Z can't really clean the drop up if you just keep lifting. Against muta ling bling, you have to be more wary with your drops and only drop to relieve muta pressure, take position or drop 3 places at once. When dropping against Infestor/Roach/only ling bane style, you can be a lot less cautious with your drops. You can fly them over the map and just float around after you lift (unless against infestors of course). Dropping Tip 1 Microing Against Infestors+ Show Spoiler +Against this style, what I do is keep the tanks in front of my marines, preventing infestors from just running ahead and fungaling. Try to keep your tanks in a line to make a wall from lings and keep your marines behind that 'wall'. You then want to keep either a viking or medivac, something to give your tanks vision and then focus fire infestors any time they come in to range. If they have a lot of infestors just charging towards you, just split your marines like you would against banes but from 9 range away. Clump of infestors? Emp Stranded infestor? Snipe Macroing against Infestor Before Muta+ Show Spoiler +I personally think infestor first for Z isn't as good as muta first. This is because, in the hands of a good Z, muta first can cause a lot of economic damage to Terran by forcing turrets, keeping T turtled, forcing thors if enough mutas, wasting stims and punishing sloppy Terran. Against infestor first, you save a lot of resources not having to make turrets. Take a very fast third, everytime. Infestor first can't ever attack in to you for a VERY long time. Production+ Show Spoiler +Factory Rule: 1 per base, 2nd factory near your 3rd CC timing.
I generally tell people not to make reactors against Zerg (and Terran). I think it's really fucking stupid because the first thing mutas go for is scvs, you'll have protected those but there's no way you're going to have enough turrets to defend all your reactors as well. They die almost instantly and don't really help you wall. Adding rax gives you the ability to use them as meat shields/walls, you won't waste your gas and it only takes 10 seconds longer to make one over a reactor. 1 reactor or so in the early game is fine IMO but start becoming a burden against good muta players.
I usually opt for orbitals rather than PFs at 3rd and 4th bases. I feel the additional mule and scan benefit outweighs the defensive capabilities of a PF in this matchup. Sometimes I'll make a PF at my gold on Xel but that's about it. It's better to just float, have good map vision and control rather than lose all your scvs repairing or just have your PF get right clicked on by banes. At lower levels, it's okay to use PFs for 3rd+ bases but try to get away with orbitals.
Openers I recommend
+ Show Spoiler +The problem with Terran and TvZ openers and builds is that terran supply is really hard to give you in openers because all the builds rely on pressure. You'll lose your marines, scvs, helions and reaper. I'll do my best to give what I can but know that if I'm giving definite numbers, they are not definite after ~23 and YMMV. I pretty much only open with 11/12rax expand, 12/14rax expand , 1rax nogas FE, reactor helion expand or reaper expand. They all work really well in a BoX series but in a tournament, I might still throw in a gas before rax reactor helion (which I won't talk about today). 11/12 Rax+ Show Spoiler + Recommended on:
Any map with close positions Xel Naga Caverns
You can still use this on larger maps like Tal'darim and Crevasse occassionally, keeping the metagame going but if Z scouts it out, it's a lot easier to stop. Also, you can choose to proxy the barracks like BoxeR but I wouldn't practice that often on ladder and just save doing that in tournaments. We want to build the fundamentals first.
The Build
10 supply 11 rax don't make scv 12 rax continue scv production 15 marine 15 OC 15 supply 2 more marines, constant scv and marine production. From here, you have to judge what to do next. If it's close positions or xel and Z went for hatch first, you can send 3-5 scvs along with your marines and do VERY heavy pressure. Of course, you can do this on any map but it's best on smaller ones. Your goal is to pretty much cripple Z with this as your CC will be late and you might be sacrificing the mining time of 5 SCVs. Place some bunkers, micro those marines. Once your pressure is up and you expand, you can choose to go in to a transition listed below depending on the situation.
12/14 Rax+ Show Spoiler + Recommended on: Any map, all around good build. Not as great on larger maps though
You can still use this on larger maps like Tal'darim and Crevasse occassionally, keeping the metagame fresh but if Z scouts it out, it's a lot easier to stop. Also, you can choose to proxy the barracks like BoxeR but I wouldn't practice that often on ladder and just save doing that in tournaments against players you know are better than you.
The Build
10 supply 12 rax 14 rax 15 OC 16 marine 16 supply constant marine + scv production From here, you have to see whether or not you can do a lot of damage. If Z is being too greedy and you can punish with more marine pressure, do it. If not, I generally get my CC at 23. You'll have to cut marines for the 23 CC so don't get too aggressive with your marines at his nat. After 23CC 24 supply Then transition to whatever you deem necessary listed below.
1 Reaper expand in to Fact+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this done by Jinro on his stream.
Recommended on: Tal'darim, Metal, Backwater, Typhon (can work everywhere though of course)
I watched day9 daily 319 (I think?) on his TvZ analysis "Less is More". I felt good watching and seeing that everything day9 was saying is good is what I've been doing all along. I feel like day9's criticism of the reaper build being cute was misdirected and rather meant for Strelok's version where he goes reaper expand in to 1-1-1. I go for a more marine heavy variation. I've seen this done differently by other players like Major and Strelok, I have my own method that I feel is better. Basically it revolves around the concept of powering.
The Build
10 supply 12 rax 13 refinery 15 OC 15 Tech lab on rax, reaper @100% tech lab 15 supply 18 CC @100% reaper, lift off rax and make factory on tech lab at 19, only make 2 marines out of floated rax 21 rax [1] @100% factory, start either blue flame and helion or tank depending on what Z does. [2] @ Start of blue flame or tank, start 2nd gas. @ 4 marines total, make reactor on 1 rax and tech lab on another [3]
Note[1]: Most people I watch get another supply depot instead of the additional rax. This I feel isn't optimal. When your CC is finished and made in to an OC, you'll have 2 mules to drop at once giving you a huge surplus of minerals. It's best if you just cut marine production, "power", for a short time so you can add the additional rax and go balls to the wall a minute later. Note[2]: If your reaper scouts roaches and sees roaches out, get tank. If baneling or just lings, go blue flame. Note[3]: From here, you can choose, depending on what your reaper sees, to make tanks if you think roach all in or you can get stim and make a starport while delaying tank production as ling bane can't do anything vs your BF helions.
Early Reaper Build Goals Per Unit:
Reaper - Kill some drones. You likely won't be able to against better players but you will be able to delay mining from nat and moving drones around. You don't want to take any damage from queens. You also want to scout out whether he's all inning, getting speed or just droning hard. After you feel you can't do anymore damage, go to a tower and hold it as reaper can jump up and down cliffs where most towers are. You can also snipe creep until they can do something about your reaper.
BF Helions - Map control map control map control. The great part of the BF helions after a speedling expand is, the one thing the Z will have (map control) is gone. Their opening gives them no benefit that they would otherwise have gotten and can't even defend against your helions without roaches or spines (more and more economic damage to Z). A lot of damage is done inadvertently. Go for drones, if you can't that's fine, deny creep spread, take towers and deny scouting. The beauty lies within the map control. If Z wants to retake it, they either need to make 3+ roaches and a spine or 5+ roaches (more economic damage) all the while your economy is left unharmed.
Tanks - stop roach all ins early on and the goals of the medivacs is to BF drop a Z going late gas style or drop marines in Z base and take out ovies across the map.
Alternate Transition
If you feel you are safe, because of late gas, you can also transition in to fast drops as so:
18 CC 20 Factory, 1 marine, then cut 23 Barracks 23 Barracks 25 OC 26 Stim and resume marine production 29 Starport @100% make medivac 31 Refinery 32 Supply Depot 35 Tech lab on Factory @150/125 make tank then tank and siege mode. @ float out, make refinery And so on. I have a replay doing this transition against LGZelniq on Typhon.
Slayers Transition
Best against: Late gas Z
10 supply 12 rax 13 refinery 15 OC 15 Tech lab on rax, reaper @100% tech lab 15 supply 18 CC @100% reaper, lift off rax and make factory on tech lab at 19, only make 2 marines out of floated rax 21 rax @100% factory, start blue flame and helion production @100% CC, orbital command and then float to natural if not already there Constant marine helion and scv production @150/100, Starport @100% starport 1 medivac @100% medivac, push towards Z with marines, helions and medivac and add more production and gas.
Drop your marines on to the high ground while keeping helions on the low ground then elevator everything up. You can focus queens with marines and take out his drones with your helions. Pretty simple really. If you see too many roaches, try running around with your helions and then use them to pin Z back to their base to prevent counters (as in, if Z trying to do roach counter, just run in to his base with helions).
From here, while I'm microing my attack, I like to add 2 more gas, swap my barracks on to the tech lab to start stim and add 2 more rax and engi bay. Also, if he's going roaches, you can start pumping marauders from your tech lab barracks and making marines and some helions as well as he won't have mutas for a long time.
If you do drone damage, keep pressing on the map to prevent him from droning up like a mad man and keep forcing units to keep his economy down. You don't want to just sit back after that which is why this style is very different and harder to pull off.
1rax nogas FE, delaying 2nd supply+ Show Spoiler + Recommended on: Crevasse, sometime shakuras and Tal'darim to keep metagame fresh
The Build
10 supply 12 rax 15 OC 16 1 marine, then cut until you start next supply 16 CC @100 minerals supply, continue marine production @150 minerals rax @150 minerals double gas and then transition below.
I feel transitioning in to a strong tank push is best after this and safest as Z players often do some sort of all in when they see this but, with adequate scouting information, you can transition in to whatever your heart desires. E.g. if you see a speedling expand, you can go in to BF helions.
Reactor Helion Expand+ Show Spoiler +It's explained really well in the liquipedia. I'm just going to talk about transitions. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Reactor_Hellion_Expand_(vs._Zerg)Recommended on:Metalopolis, Xel Naga, any map with wide natural but can be done anywhere really. You can transition from here in to mech, to the Slayers style or just standard marine tank. I only build 2 helions with this build. Note: A style that used to be popular when SC2 came out was to just not expand, get double gas and go for cloak banshee after reactor helion. I feel this style puts you REALLY far behind if you can't do crippling damage as you'll have later expo, he'll have mutas and he'll be free to drone up and take 3rd as you can't push out for very long time. For now, I'm going to add the SlayerS style transition here as it's the only one that's different from BF helions and other transitions that you'll see below. To go to the other transitions from reactor helion expand, add another rax before adding your 2nd gas and then do one of the builds in the build order transitions section. SlayerS StyleAfter CC, supply depot 2 helions out of reactor factory. Do NOT suicide these unless he has no lings, no spines and drones just sitting there. Add tech lab on barracks Swap factory and barracks so factory on tech lab and barracks on reactor Start blue flame and constant helion marine SCV and supply depot production Keep helions around the map and float your 2nd CC after making it in to and orbital to natural if you didn't build it there. Add Starport at 100 gas @100% starport 1 medivac @100% medivac, push towards Z with your helions, marines and medivac Drop your marines on to the high ground while keeping helions on the low ground then elevator everything up. You can focus queens with marines and take out his drones with your helions. Pretty simple really. If you see too many roaches, try running around with your helions and then use them to pin Z back to their base to prevent counters (as in, if Z trying to do roach counter, just run in to his base with helions). From here, while I'm microing my attack, I like to add 2 more gas, swap my barracks on to the tech lab to start stim and add 2 more rax and engi bay. Also, if he's going roaches, you can start pumping marauders from your tech lab barracks and making marines and some helions as well as he won't have mutas for a long time. If you do drone damage, keep pressing on the map to prevent him from droning up like a mad man and keep forcing units to keep his economy down. You don't want to just sit back after that which is why this style is very different and harder to pull off.
WTF is Zerg Doing? How do we Determine it and then What do we Do?
+ Show Spoiler +Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. A lot of your information will be based off extrapolating, using your scouting info with the build you're doing. You need to determine using your marines, helions, tank push etc. what Z is doing. Early game:+ Show Spoiler +Z will pretty much only 14/15 hatch, gas pool, hatch pool or pool hatch, I listed them in order of how good I think each build is.
If they go 14/15 hatch
1. Your SCV scouts no gas until lings pop. This means that they're going to be droning up hard. Don't be shy with your marines on the map as he won't have ling speed until at least 6:30.
2. Your SCV scouts gas and drones still mining gas after 100. Z either forgot to pullout or they're going to do an all in, baneling or roach (assume all in). Keep pressuring with marines or reaper and try to scout out which it's going to be, fall back and progress with your transition as you normally would, make a bunker or two if roaches and wall off if suspected banelings.
3. Your SCV scouts gas and drones pulling out after 100 gas (DRG v sCfOu style). Z is going to get speed and hatch. They'll have a weaker mineral income because of this. You need to be back in your main at about 5:30 minutes but any drone kills you get at this stage are HUGE. If you kill 5+ drones, do a tank + stim push transition. It's safe if Z feels they got too behind and all in, feel they need to get back by taking fast 3rd or if they try to drone up too hard and overcompensate.
If they go Gas Pool:
1. Your SCV scouts no more drones mining gas after 100 and the spawning pool is shaking. Zerg expands. Zerg is just getting some speedlings to stop any marine pressure. You want to pressure for a bit but be back in your base by 5:00 but give yourself time to be back in your base as it takes long to get back to your main if you're pressuring. I usually fall back around 4:30. Any blue flame play after this is really, really good.
2. Your SCV scouts drones mining after 100 gas and spawning pool isn't twitching. Zerg doesn't expand. Make CC, 2 bunkers at ramp and another rax. Stop his all in and win doing pretty much anything.
Hatch pool and pool hatch follow the same guideline above.
SpineCrawlers:
Any forced spinecrawlers means Z is sacrificing more economy for semi-static defense. They're likely not going to be making a lot of lings as well as they're going to rely on spinecrawlers for defense. Anytime you see this, you can be a lot more aggressive with your marines on the map for map control once you have 8+. This can force Z to make either more spinecrawlers or more lings once they see your marines on the map, what commentators have been saying is overreacting. If they have a lot of lings on the map AND spinecrawlers, then their economy is shit. Keep macroing yourself and then take out his 3rd as he takes it.
Z overcommits on 2rax pressure and makes too many lings.
You'll notice this from the bunch of lings that took out your marines or that keep poking up your ramp. If Z did this, a common thing for Z to do is just all in since they have the lings made anyways. What I generally do is go in to a BF helion transition anytime Z overcommits on lings. I'd be a lot more wary of doing any reactor starport build. Mid Game:+ Show Spoiler +Almost finished. Mass ling (yeah really) + Show Spoiler +Used often by ReignPhoeNix AKA kOre. My practice partner, RevWarlockx also does it. I need to play against it more but I've done fine against it against Warlock.
Mass ling isn't that bad actually and stops mid game 3 tank pushes easily. You need to scout that he's doing this. Some hints are, your scouting SCV won't see any gas, your drops or scan won't see any spire or infestation at the 10 minute mark and that he'll PROBABLY have a fast third. Every build transition I wrote is good against this. The higher your marine count, the better your marines scale, so, don't do any small pushes around the map.
Drop and abuse cliffs constantly and use those drops to scout his bases until you see mutas or infestors. You can also take a fast third as he has no potential to kill you with any mass ling timing pushes. He'll have banked a lot of gas so he'll pump a lot of mutas, or infestors, at once. No matter which it is, if you see an infestation or spire, you should be able to do a push before the Z can get the mutas or infestors out to take out any 3rd. If he doesn't have a 3rd base, just take your 3rd (off of 1 factory) and then play out with an economical advantage. Defend his muta harass and then do a push once you've built up your tank count and added a thor. Losing your tank count early sets you far back so try your best, using scans, sacking marines and taking towers to see his army size and army position. Don't go too far on creep and remember, no half-assed pushes. Ling baneling all game+ Show Spoiler + The same as mass ling almost. More tanks = better so don't make any half assed pushes around the map. Usually I see this done on XNC where Z tries their hardest to stop you from taking your gold. You'll see no spire or infestation so just keep harassing with drops while your tank count grows.
Ling bane roach, + Show Spoiler + Losira style. Very strong. Can either transition in to a huge all in, early timing attack or a fast 3rd and then (usually) mutas. This style will be evident by, of course, the roaches. A few roaches in the early game doesn't necessarily mean that Z is going to go roaches. Some Zs use roaches just to take their natural safely because they suck at defending 2rax or helion pressure without them. A giveaway that he's going to be investing in roaches heavily is roach speed. Once you scout out roaches, you're going to have to determine whether he's gearing up for an attack or expanding.
Note: There's a Jecho timing attack that some people use but it's never been done on me before. I'm going to ask some practice partners to try it out on me and see how and what I do against it. I'm thinking bunkers and proper focus firing would make this a piece of cake to hold.
Generally, anytime I see roaches, I just add another bunker on top of the one I already have at my natural. I also get a faster 4th gas and second factory before making my 3rd CC. One factory will not cut it at all against this style and you need to add your 3rd as soon as you take your 3rd base. Again, focus firing banes is most important. It'll be easier cause he'll have less banes. Use drops to determine which tech he chooses, scan if absolutely needed. I usually add 1 viking after my first dropship is out to take out any ovies. Shift click spam attack move over your minimap with the viking in areas he'll likely have ovies. With this style, it's VERY important that you don't do any half-assed pushes unless you see some glaring holes to take advantage of. This is because, once you get a maxed tank marine army, a maxed ling bane roach army doesn't even remotely compare. I have some replays where a Z loses everything while I lose ~10 supply (granted, he engaged terribly). Early on, you need to more so rely on drops, like MMA did vs Losira. Your drops can hover in space since there will be no mutas and you can abuse his immobility and pin him back like you would a Protoss.
Muta ling bling+ Show Spoiler +I'd call this the "standard" of Z. Very mobile, very deadly. Again, your marine tank army scales a lot better than muta ling bling. Dropping is VERY risky against this style and should be used situationally, e.g. you see mutas flying to the left on your minimap, you can then go drop his main on the right, or you want to drop 3 places at once, or you want to use a drop as a diversion to move out and position your army.
There are small timings you can do depending on your build. When Z is doing this style, they'll generally be banking a lot of minerals and gas before the spire completes and because of this, any transition I listed has a strong timing associated with it. The AVERAGE time that a Spire will finish at is 10:30 but can be different of course. I know IdrA used to do some really, really fast muta play (don't know if he still does, he hasn't streamed in a long time. For example, a blue flame + stim marine timing is VERY good against this style and with proper micro, you can take out a zerg's natural whereas a Z would crush a marine BFH push with ling bane roach. Just know that behind this you'll have to be putting up turrets and macroing. Any fast third Z does with this build can also be taken out with a marine tank stim push or, if you're doing BFH, you can pump out 3 tanks and then do a push with marines, BFH and tanks. In general, any sort of pressure before a Spire is done really hurts the Z because they'll have to divert minerals, gas and supply to stop your pressure, limiting their early muta count.
Make turrets around the hotspots of your base, I generally do 2 at my natural and main at first and 1 near my production and more if I see Z is going mass muta. I start adding Thors when I feel his muta numbers get too high to handle, that number is generally 15+. Early Thors isn't necessarily good if he only makes 6 mutas, drops an infestation and techs to hive for fast BL. You should of course have an armory ready to produce them if you're keeping up with your upgrades. 1 Thor with your army is good as it just prevents Z from focus firing tanks with his mutas.
I generally make 2 facts before expanding against this style. On XNC (mostly), Z can do a mass ling bane muta timing attack as you go to take your gold, just focus fire with tanks and spread as normal. Infestor play+ Show Spoiler +I personally think infestor first play isn't better than muta first, but that doesn't matter, let's talk about how we're going to kill a Z doing infestor first play.
As always, scout out with your drops or pushes if he's doing this. I have a replay on shak vs OTLTro where he goes delayed gas in to mass infestor style. I basically just take a fast third off of one fact and drop a LOT against it. This is because, with infestors, there isn't really any timing attack he can do to kill you and you'll have more minerals than usual because you won't need to make turrets (roach ling bane differs in the sense that you'll have to get a 2nd factory earlier).
Always keep a spotter on top of his army before engaging or scan, this way, you can focus fire infestors and know when to start running your marines back or spreading them. Try to engage off of creep because his main army unit will be lings.
You should add just 1 turret at your natural incase he tries some burrow shenanigans. Also, on XNC, if you take your 4th base as the pit base (3rd should always be gold), add a supply depot on the high ground and a turret at that base behind your mineral line to see burrowed infestor sillyness.
I always add vikings to take out ovies once I have enough medivacs and drops going around. You'll also probably need vikings anyways when BL come out.
Again, depending on the build and map, there are some strong timings you can do depending on your build. If you choose a tank stim push and you see infestors, you can do a hard contain. Spread and siege up your tanks, pre-spread marines and leave them on hold position while your SCVs come to make bunkers. Take a third after the bunkers are up, make sure you can spot any nydus play with SDs on edge of base and slowly creep your tanks towards Z.
Any reactor starport v this would be really strong, BF helions will take map control for a long time and the korean transition leads in to a fast third.
If you lose your tank count early on, you'll probably find you can't keep up with infestors. If that's the case, start adding ghosts. Infestor clump ---> EMP, stranded infestor ---> snipe.
Build order Transitions
+ Show Spoiler +The beauty of Terran is all the different things that we can do in the midgame to do subsequent pushes. There are a few good general transitions I'm going to list that can lead you in to good macro games. Of course there are other things you can do like the sCfOu mass bio all in. Build order transitions depend on whether you went reaper or 2rax as the transitions building order timings are different but generally the same. Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On: Larger maps
Good Against: Delayed gas builds Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is: Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) @150 minerals 3rd rax @75 minerals refinery @150 minerals 4th rax @75 minerals 2nd gas @150 minerals 2nd OC @100% 3rd rax tech lab @100% tech lab start stim Cut marine production a bit to add @125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons. @150/100 factory @75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals: The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss. 2 Fact Blue Flame (Really Popular on NA Ladder)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build used in the GSL sometime in Jan. or Feb. I believe. Can't remember the player, sorry Mr. Unknownyo. Good On:Metalopolis XNC Typhon Peaks Good Against:Speedling Expands No spine and no roach zerg i.e. greedy zerg Fast Muta Pretty much auto-win vs Julyzerg baneling pressure. I can explain the build here a bit but QXC explains it really well in the 12 weeks with the pros guide with Mr. Bitters so I'm going to link that as well. He does his transition after a 11/12 rax build. See it here: http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/the-next-12-weeks-week-4-tvz-with-qxc-5152225(I hope it's okay that I'm posting this...it's public so I wouldn't see why not but if you guys have a problem with it just pm me). The Build24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) You won't need to start another Supply depot until after 2nd CC is done. Constant marine, scv and supply depot (as necessary production). @150 double gas @150 minerals rax @100% CC, start OC @150/100 Factory @100% 3rd rax, tech lab, swap with first factory @150/100 Factory After landing on tech lab, start blue flame and helion. @50/25 Tech lab on 3rd rax and @100% start stim Float out CC when you have 10-12 marines, you don't want to reveal helions if possible. Keep making helions out of both factories until you have 5-7 and move out accordingly. You can choose whether you want to go out really, it doesn't matter TBH and I don't know which is best so I just move out whenever I feel. Note: There are other variations. You can either do a blue flame + stim timing push or get a fast +1 upgrade, watch the QXC guide with Mr. Bitters. Goals:Kill a bunch of drones if Z has not enough spines or roaches. Even if Z does, you've done economic damage inadvertently by forcing spines, roaches and usually a Z wall. Take map control Prevent creep spread Tank Stim Push (Old but solid build)+ Show Spoiler +This was my go-to build since December and January until BF helion transition came along. It's really solid and I recommend it as a good learner build. I kind of developed it myself while taking pieces from koreans. You want to retain your marines from any bunker pressure as much as possible. You hit with 3 tanks and marines at a delicate timing before any 3rd base kicks in and before mutas pop. You can then fall back if you choose and go for a better push where you'll have medivacs, combat shields and +1 if Z didn't go fast 3rd or fast muta while you take your 3rd CC.
Good On: Smaller, closer maps.
Good Against: Fast 3rd Fast Muta
Countered by Losira style roach ling bane play.
The Build 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) You won't need to start another Supply depot until after 2nd CC is done. Constant marine, scv and supply depot (as necessary production). @150 double gas @150 minerals rax @100% CC, start OC @150/100 start factory @100% 3rd rax start tech lab to swap factory on to @swap, start tank production with siege mode. You want constant tank production until you push. Start another tech lab on 3rd rax @float out to natural, start 3rd refinery @100% tech lab, start stim @2nd tank, start engibay and +1 right away if haven't started before @50% 3rd tank, start starport. @3rd tank push out. Should have 3 siege tanks and a lot of stimmed marines. @100%stim, start combat @100% stim, start 4th refinery
Note[1]:siege mode if you suspect any ling bane all in, else, you can get a fast +1 by adding an engibay if you know he's going to be droning (lots of spines made, or no/delayed gas).
Float 2nd OC out after 1st tank if you lost your marines. If you retained your marines, you can float out earlier.
Goals:
Flat out kill Z Take out 3rd Push back Creep Safely take 3rd while doing drop play Reactor Starport (Jinro build)+ Show Spoiler + This build I copied from Jinro. The first time I saw it IIRC was the Jinro v Idra clash of the titans showmatch. The build gets you early medivacs and stimmed marines for drops, picking off ovies and map control until mutas are out.
Good On: Shakuras Close air positions any map
Good Against: Pretty much anything Z does besides below.
Auto-lose Against: Julyzerg baneling pressure. If a competent Z is doing it, you will almost always lose. Be very careful this build. IIRC Jinro lost to Morrow's bane pressure both times.
The Build
24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) You won't need to start another Supply depot until after 2nd CC is done. Constant marine, scv and supply depot (as necessary production). @150 double gas @150 minerals rax @100% CC, start OC @150/100 start factory @50/25 start tech lab on 3rd rax @100% tech lab start stim @100% factory starport and reactor on factory @100% starport, swap factory and starport and start 2 medivacs, start tech lab on factory @100% factory tech lab, start tank and siege mode and 3rd and 4th gas @100% stim, start combat and engibay and +1 right away From here you add your 2nd fact and CC as needed.
2 Fact Siege Tank (Auto-win close positions)+ Show Spoiler +I was watching Jimpo's stream late one morning when I came across this build. Basically, I think the only way to lose doing this if Z scouts it, makes a tonne of lings and speed banes (all in) and gets you the second you move out. Otherwise, I've never seen Z stop this. If you suspect muta play, add an engi bay and turret up and do a hard contain/push. If every T starts doing this close positions, I strongly believe Blizzard will have to remove close positions map because this shit is just so imba.
I wouldn't do this build outside of close positions as you don't even get stim. Also good on Typon Peaks vertical positions. Push through rocks, make bunkers and make turrets.
The Build
24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) You won't need to start another Supply depot until after 2nd CC is done. Constant marine, scv and supply depot (as necessary production). @150 double gas @150 minerals rax @150/100 start factory @100% start tech lab @150/100 start factory @100% start tech lab Produce your 1st tank and siege mode along with more tanks. You want early siege mode because it's close positions and zerg will probably all in you. You also want to float to your main ASAP to get your additional gas income to support your double fact. No early stim or combat shields with this push. Move out at 5-6 tanks or as you see necessary, sack and SCV to see army size and composition or scan if needed.
Goals: Kill him
Extreme2 Port Banshee + Show Spoiler +This is less all-in than one base 2port but really sets you back if you can't do significant damage). There's a game of SjoW v July on Shattered I believe in the MLG? Where SjoW got really far behind from July's baneling pressure. Sjow then transitioned in to 2-port and July wasn't prepared. Terrible damage was dealt and eventually sjow won. I'd reserve this for tournaments against players better than you or for when you're really behind and need something drastic to catch up.
The Build The build order is simple, you make 2 starports, absolutely deny all scouting, make some banshees without cloak and pray he doesn't have lots of queens or fast mutas. Then go kill, in order, Queens, if you have enough banshees, any made or making spores, spire, drones.
Replays + Show Spoiler +
FAQs + Show Spoiler + Upgrades Certain builds, such as the siege tank timing push, Korean build and sometimes off of a blue flame, you can get really early ups. They're essential throughout the entire game and you always want to keep your upgrades going, never delay them once they start. Against a muta-ling bling player, go for mech +1 armor, then +1 attack, then continue on armor. Against roach ling bane, go for mech attack.
When to add in Thors?
I used to be so scared of mutas. The second I saw mutas, I'd start pumping thors. The problem with that is, you don't know if Z is just making a few mutas while teching to hive or if they're going to go mass muta ling bling. I generally start adding in Thors if, from my drops and scans, I see no signs of infestor/hive tech and Z has more than 15 mutas.
What do I do in the Late Game?
IMO the best way to deal with late game Z is to use ghosts. Any infestor BL corruptor play can't be dealt with head on without them. The second I see greater spire, I start dropping ALL my marines everywhere or go for a death push if I see I can because he'll either be making corruptors or saving up supply for them. Any push will delay it. Once BL are out and you're not ready with ghosts, start dropping him EVERYWHERE. If he abandons his BL, see if you can take them out with vikings or stimmed marines while you build up your ghost count. This is a really strong ability Terran has anytime something is introduced that Terran isn't ready for and this can be adapted in to any matchup.
When do I add in Ghosts?
A good time to start adding ghosts would be after they have 6+ infestors and you feel like your tank count won't be able to handle that because you lost your tanks early on. Another good time to add them is while Hive is morphing. If you scout/scan a hive morphing, add your ghost academy, 2-3 tech labs and start pumping out ghosts with mobius reactor. You know Z won't have BL or ultras for a long time even after hive is morphed so you don't need 20 ghosts instantly but rather can gradually increase your ghost count.
Ask me more.
Map Specific Tricks
+ Show Spoiler +
Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +Fuck this took long to write. IDK why I did. Just felt like it. Needed some stress relief maybe, whatever. No one else wrote a TvZ guide and I've been feeling like I could add to TL for months now.
I don't think too many people are going to read this as it's not any auto-win build or gimicky new thing. This is just standard play. Enjoy.
External Resources
+ Show Spoiler +
VODs + Show Spoiler +Bunker Rushing Liquid Ret + Show Spoiler +http://www.justin.tv/thedoctor91/b/290733594 Long Game v Mass Muta Z. + Show Spoiler +http://www.justin.tv/thedoctor91/b/290733138 Microing Against Infestor BL Ultra army + Show Spoiler +http://www.twitch.tv/thedoctor91/b/291724041
|
BTW I don't play on Slag, delta or scrap so you're on your own on those maps or you can downvote them like me. Garbage maps they are.
I'm posting this kind of prematurely. I still have some things to add but I'm watching GSL now and going to go to sleep after so I'll finish it up after. Have to add some neat map specific tricks after.
I'll also up some more reps later as well.
BTW if my micro sucks in some replays, it's more likely that it was lagging while streaming rather than me sucking. Yeah, definitely.
|
Lol i dont play on slag/delta or scrap either! Finally a good TvZ guide. thanks for putting in the time for this guide!.
|
As a Zerg player, lowbie platinum that I am, I will be a sad, sad panda if this works its way into the TvZ metagame. Some of these strats give me nightmares.
Great guide! It's a good read, even for non-terrans.
|
wow, great guide. thanks a lot for this
|
Nooooooo the two factory siege tank... 
Nice to see that there is a general consensus on this strat being imba on close positions though :p.
Anyway I'm zerg, and I still find your guide extremely interesting. It's well written, really going into the depth of this interesting match-up, and it will allow me to recognize openings from Terran more easily.
Thank you so much for this contribution to the community .
|
On July 07 2011 18:58 Ahelvin wrote:Nooooooo the two factory siege tank...  Nice to see that there is a general consensus on this strat being imba on close positions though :p. Anyway I'm zerg, and I still find your guide extremely interesting. It's well written, really going into the depth of this interesting match-up, and it will allow me to recognize openings from Terran more easily. Thank you so much for this contribution to the community  .
Imba as fuck close positions haha. Best believe I'm going to do it though (and not apologize afterwards).
+ Show Spoiler +Nada v MVP monster on ATM. Nada FIGHTING. Hopefully Nada has some cool new build to copy and analyze  . I felt like STC was doing well last game off of his reactor helion opening, kinda blew it though. Aww yeah Nada 11/12 bunker rush
|
If you want to win just 1aing, go play protoss.
Fighting, fighting to keep reading after this. He might be a saint with on black wound, keep reading! Like dropping a big juicy dessert on the table, and saying the chef likes to wipe his butt with his hands after defecating. Like meeting a young attractive girl and hearing on the first date she used to be a man and wonders if you'll be okay with her going back. So too is a guide delivering so much content (that includes with a no-nonsense approach to marine/tank TvZ) with such balance rabble as you include in the opener.
my TvP was around 10-20%. Yeah, seriously. I've since gotten my TvP a LOT better I hope, too, your opinions of Protoss will improve as well. Otherwise, great effort.
|
On July 07 2011 19:07 Danglars wrote:Fighting, fighting to keep reading after this. He might be a saint with on black wound, keep reading! Like dropping a big juicy dessert on the table, and saying the chef likes to wipe his butt with his hands after defecating. Like meeting a young attractive girl and hearing on the first date she used to be a man and wonders if you'll be okay with her going back. So too is a guide delivering so much content (that includes with a no-nonsense approach to marine/tank TvZ) with such balance rabble as you include in the opener. Show nested quote +my TvP was around 10-20%. Yeah, seriously. I've since gotten my TvP a LOT better I hope, too, your opinions of Protoss will improve as well. Otherwise, great effort.
Hahahahaha. Yeah I know I know. I just used to be so frustrated and there was a style I had a friend do where he would stay on 2 base and just do a 2 base colli + blink push that was SOO hard to stop.
I'll edit it out, for you.
|
Good guide. I was 1830 on EU until I hit 8 zergs in a row and lost 7 of them qq.
|
Wow thanks for explaining the focus fire on the banelings.
|
where mah mech
|
On July 07 2011 19:33 phisku wrote:where mah mech  In a thread not including the words "Marine/Tank" in it's opening sentence? :p
|
Thanks a lot for this, I plan to finish reading all of this over the next day or two.
As high diamond I'm having to work on my TvZ the most, this will definitely help. I find it really hard because of how easily you can lose your entire army if you look away to macro for a second, plus having to constantly harass to keep zerg macro from getting out of control On the bright side I guess TvZ forces you to improve your multitasking
|
On July 07 2011 19:38 Nexic wrote:Thanks a lot for this, I plan to finish reading all of this over the next day or two. As high diamond I'm having to work on my TvZ the most, this will definitely help. I find it really hard because of how easily you can lose your entire army if you look away to macro for a second, plus having to constantly harass to keep zerg macro from getting out of control  On the bright side I guess TvZ forces you to improve your multitasking 
Definitely. I've found that my protoss or zerg friends who try bio tank in TvZ often spend too long staring at their main macroing up all the while zerg is rolling through your clumped up marines with banes. You have to be VERY careful, though zerg the same. Z can't just run around the map freely once you have some map presence with tanks so I guess it evens out.
|
On July 07 2011 19:33 phisku wrote:where mah mech 
I don't deny mech's viability. I have really little experience with it though and I think marine tank is better in TvZ, from what I've observed. Mech is really good on certain maps and certain positions though. Unfortunately for you, this is a marine tank guide. I don't see why anyone would want to ignore the marine. The marine is a good unit, or so I've heard. In other words, I'd rather play like MMA rather than goody.
+ Show Spoiler +Okay Nada v DRG. This is gonna b e fucking good.
|
I have a question: you seem to dislike factory openings. If your opponent knows this, do you still think it's smart for him to open hatch first? How do you claim your natural when going gasless against speed openings?
|
OK... you are my favorite terran right now Just reading what you write... everything is so true!
+ Show Spoiler +Don't be scared to go in to the late game against any race. I hope to turn you cheesy noobies in to macro monsters. + Show Spoiler +A lot of people I feel just overcommit to attacking Zerg. I feel once people move out they say okay you're going to die now. The problem is, you can't just immediately run up to zerg and siege them + Show Spoiler +Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you
It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes lategame for us zerg players so easy, we get ahead after every push we hold, because terrans tend to overcommit to everything. I really fear fighting good macro terrans, that never lose units when pushing out, taking mapcontrol, and then returning home and in the end they are even in the workercount, but have 4-5 extra mules.
|
On July 07 2011 20:31 dementrio wrote: I have a question: you seem to dislike factory openings. If your opponent knows this, do you still think it's smart for him to open hatch first? How do you claim your natural when going gasless against speed openings?
as zerg you always want to open hatch first if it is not something like 11rax/11rax, simply because of the creep spread (for queens, spinecrawlers and also slowlings). I think Idra said this once: "The best defense (in ZvT) is to get the hatch down as fast as possible."
|
idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands.
|
On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote: idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands.
yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even.
|
On July 07 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote: idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands. yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even.
no you're not. if you lose the hatch you lose the game every time. Killing the scvs means killing one or more bunkers full of marines with slow zerlings, i.e. cost ineffectively. even if you can trade 2 lings for 1 scv/marine, which never happens, its still not a good trade; his expansion will be earlier than yours, and 1 base is dead vs double mule.
|
On July 07 2011 21:41 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote: idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands. yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even. no you're not. if you lose the hatch you lose the game every time. Killing the scvs means killing one or more bunkers full of marines with slow zerlings, i.e. cost ineffectively. even if you can trade 2 lings for 1 scv/marine, which never happens, its still not a good trade; his expansion will be earlier than yours, and 1 base is dead vs double mule.
+ Show Spoiler +Jinro did this in his up/down matches against Zenio and Coca. Killed the hatch with a 2rax, and both came back I think. I have no season ticket for gomtv to rewatch it but I think those two games are pretty much the best examples for a terran that goes 2rax against a zerg to kill the hatch, brings a lot of SCVs but doesn't really get an advantage of it. also if he pulls a lot of SCVs (6+) you can simply sac the expo and deny reinforcements with lings(if you catch some of them rallying... even better), keep ling production up, kill his cointain and the SCVs and be ahead with something like 15vs10 workers. (he can't expand very fast with so many SCVs pulled) ofc if you simply let him build bunkers, lose the hatch and then attempt to kill bunkers with a ton of repairing SCVs and like 10+marines around you are dead...
I'm not saying I recommend this stuff (being a zerg myself), but any 2rax that has a lot of eco behind it is holdable and any 2rax that doesn't is recoverable, if you exectue your defense right. (except for retarted rush distances like metalopolis close and other imba stuff like that...)
|
Amazing guide, thank you!
I wish I would of started with a different hot key setup, after 2000 games its going to be hard to change. I really need more than 2 army hotkeys after reading this.
|
Great write up, can't wait to watch the replays when I'm home
|
On July 07 2011 23:04 maddogawl wrote: Amazing guide, thank you!
I wish I would of started with a different hot key setup, after 2000 games its going to be hard to change. I really need more than 2 army hotkeys after reading this.
switching hotkeys is easier than you might think, trust me ^^
OT:
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G guide. thank youuuu~
|
United Kingdom2950 Posts
Wow, this is a disgusting guide. Thanks for writing it!
|
|
Wow, this is an incredible guide. It's really helped smooth out some kinks in my low level gameplay :D
|
awesome guide! there was not many good terran resources lately :3 ( I kinda want to write one up, but, sadly, I'm not that good yet)
|
I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play.
Here a replay of mine from today.
In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to.
You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while.
The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base.
|
A ton of good stuff in this guide, really appreciate it! Nice to see a guide about very standard play without any gimmicks. Will be keeping a close eye on the further development of this guide as well, I've been struggling a bit in TvZ lately (Master level as well) so this helped me to get a much better overall view of the matchup.
|
Doc... you wrote more here than all your college papers together. Nice read though but I wish you would teach my low platinum ass some of this awesomeness!
|
Brilliant guide [: couple of holes but I'm sure you'll fill them. Discussed all the strong viable builds imo, but I am wondering, have you tried early drop play before? Reactor for when starport finishes, 16 marines with stim & combat shield dropped behind mineral line? From what I have seen it can set the zerg way behind against pure ling or just low baneling count. Bomber vs Destiny g1 the most recent example I have seen.
And also, what do you think about tackling infestors with banshees instead of ghosts? Cloaked if resources allow. Infestors die super fast and with simple splitting you can force a lot of fungals. Follow up with marine & tank and can clear out lingbling quickly and snipe hatcheries. With enough infestors killed/fungal energy lost can protect banshees with marines quickly. Can easily force sporecrawlers at expansions too. Can lead into battlecruisers which do amazing if zerg does not have corruptors. This is in my experience playing against master zergs. Ghost play to me is weak against the zerg just flooding lings/banelings. It's also absolutely perfect against ultralisks if for some reason your opponent wants to lose the game.
I love the tip you give near the end about just dropping everywhere once you see greater spire. A lot of people need to know about this
|
Fack I just creamed. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you so much for putting this together, now please do one for TvP and TvT XD
|
On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base. Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/.
For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push.
But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win.
|
Nice I just switched from Protoss to Terran and really had no idea how to play the matchup at all. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to help newbies like me
|
I think...I think you just made me get to Masters!!(we'll see when next season starts)
<3<3 THANK YOU!
|
On July 08 2011 01:41 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base. Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/. For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push. But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win.
Well, I'm aware I'm bad. The point I'm trying to make though is: Tank/Marine/Medivac is as standard as it gets. And adding ghosts and nukes isn't that expensive or complicated. The point of the nukes is to kill larva and eggs, everything else is just bonus. Why? Because if I kill all his larva and eggs, I have a long timing window to kill him. Zerg very rarely will have detection, having scouted my starport with reactor, and me having vikings out on the floor then. He will almost always go muta and use all the gas he has on them. I defend home while the ghost do the nasty. And if he has the detection ... I just move out with the ghosts in my army and land the nukes while my army protects the ghosts.
I don't see why this shouldn't work at a a higher level. Up to starport it is as standard as it gets. And in this game I got the academy at the same time as the starport, well, I did a lot of damage and had the resources left over because my macro slipped earlier.
All I want is to see more nukes. I don't have the time and talent and ambition to get to high level. I just wanna see the world burn Some bored master terrans might pick up on it, and maybe eventually this will get added. MMA used nukes in late game to great effect already after all.
|
awesome guide, i love insights like these into how to play a certain matchup.
|
|
Very nice contribution for the community. Well done!
|
I think the guide is very well written. Explaining standard play in detail is always great to see, should be a recommended thread. I also love to see a thread that covers ALL standard openings at the moment: both versions of 2raxes, reaper expand etc. I wish hellion reactor was covered too as it's a very common opening on some maps. The tank focus firing is SO CRUCIAL. Everyone should listen to this tip! When I see them split marines and then my first 4 or 5 zerglings that I spread out in front of the bulk of my army take the siege hits I smile because I just got my banes past their tanks and have stopped a push.
|
Always love it when I look at the replays and see names I recognize. Assures me that blindly following the advice of the guide will not be a bad step, since it definitely works upto high levels. Thanks for this
|
As a zerg it's sometimes hard to understand terran and protoss deviations (as they're not as black and white as army/workers), but this guide definitely gives me some insight on that. Thanks!
|
Great contribution Doctor -- you make David Tennant proud.
|
Ty for the guide, only read about half of it so far and i can already tell its SC2 gold =D
Just a quick question, what time do you tend to get medivacs out for each of your gameplans? or is it just purely situation, and if it is, what are the triggers for ?
|
On July 07 2011 20:31 dementrio wrote: I have a question: you seem to dislike factory openings. If your opponent knows this, do you still think it's smart for him to open hatch first? How do you claim your natural when going gasless against speed openings?
I've played a lot of games where my practice partners elected for gas pool instead of hatch first. If I'm doing a reaper opening, I do the BF helion transition negating any map control and presence they wouild have gotten and force either spines or roaches. If they go gas pool after a 2rax, you can still pressure once you have enough marines or you can just transition in to BF helions, forcing roaches most of the time. IMO roaches are damn easy to play against compared to mutas and BF helion transition in to double fact tank is quite easy as all the infrastrucutre is already put in place for you.
On July 07 2011 20:31 Big J wrote:OK... you are my favorite terran right now  Just reading what you write... everything is so true! + Show Spoiler +Don't be scared to go in to the late game against any race. I hope to turn you cheesy noobies in to macro monsters. + Show Spoiler +A lot of people I feel just overcommit to attacking Zerg. I feel once people move out they say okay you're going to die now. The problem is, you can't just immediately run up to zerg and siege them + Show Spoiler +Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you It's exactly this kind of stuff that makes lategame for us zerg players so easy, we get ahead after every push we hold, because terrans tend to overcommit to everything. I really fear fighting good macro terrans, that never lose units when pushing out, taking mapcontrol, and then returning home and in the end they are even in the workercount, but have 4-5 extra mules.
Heh that's another point I forgot to add. You don't want to lose any mech while pushing. It's a lot easier to reinforce Z units than it is mech units as part of your bio mech.
On July 07 2011 20:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 20:31 dementrio wrote: I have a question: you seem to dislike factory openings. If your opponent knows this, do you still think it's smart for him to open hatch first? How do you claim your natural when going gasless against speed openings? as zerg you always want to open hatch first if it is not something like 11rax/11rax, simply because of the creep spread (for queens, spinecrawlers and also slowlings). I think Idra said this once: "The best defense (in ZvT) is to get the hatch down as fast as possible."
Gas pool is fine, Nestea has shown that a lot. You get behind in economy (the Z) in the beginning but then drone like made men later on.
On July 07 2011 22:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 21:41 dementrio wrote:On July 07 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote: idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands. yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even. no you're not. if you lose the hatch you lose the game every time. Killing the scvs means killing one or more bunkers full of marines with slow zerlings, i.e. cost ineffectively. even if you can trade 2 lings for 1 scv/marine, which never happens, its still not a good trade; his expansion will be earlier than yours, and 1 base is dead vs double mule. + Show Spoiler +Jinro did this in his up/down matches against Zenio and Coca. Killed the hatch with a 2rax, and both came back I think. I have no season ticket for gomtv to rewatch it but I think those two games are pretty much the best examples for a terran that goes 2rax against a zerg to kill the hatch, brings a lot of SCVs but doesn't really get an advantage of it. also if he pulls a lot of SCVs (6+) you can simply sac the expo and deny reinforcements with lings(if you catch some of them rallying... even better), keep ling production up, kill his cointain and the SCVs and be ahead with something like 15vs10 workers. (he can't expand very fast with so many SCVs pulled) ofc if you simply let him build bunkers, lose the hatch and then attempt to kill bunkers with a ton of repairing SCVs and like 10+marines around you are dead... I'm not saying I recommend this stuff (being a zerg myself), but any 2rax that has a lot of eco behind it is holdable and any 2rax that doesn't is recoverable, if you exectue your defense right. (except for retarted rush distances like metalopolis close and other imba stuff like that...)
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Can you post some links or vids of what it is you're talking about?
On July 08 2011 01:28 Huggerz wrote: Brilliant guide [: couple of holes but I'm sure you'll fill them. Discussed all the strong viable builds imo, but I am wondering, have you tried early drop play before? Reactor for when starport finishes, 16 marines with stim & combat shield dropped behind mineral line? From what I have seen it can set the zerg way behind against pure ling or just low baneling count. Bomber vs Destiny g1 the most recent example I have seen.
And also, what do you think about tackling infestors with banshees instead of ghosts? Cloaked if resources allow. Infestors die super fast and with simple splitting you can force a lot of fungals. Follow up with marine & tank and can clear out lingbling quickly and snipe hatcheries. With enough infestors killed/fungal energy lost can protect banshees with marines quickly. Can easily force sporecrawlers at expansions too. Can lead into battlecruisers which do amazing if zerg does not have corruptors. This is in my experience playing against master zergs. Ghost play to me is weak against the zerg just flooding lings/banelings. It's also absolutely perfect against ultralisks if for some reason your opponent wants to lose the game.
I love the tip you give near the end about just dropping everywhere once you see greater spire. A lot of people need to know about this
I haven't seen the Bomber v Destiny but I discussed a reactor starport build in the guide. I don't have combat shields but rather only stim with my drop timing. The reactor starport is very strong but has its weaknesses, namely baneling busts as you have no tanks out for a while. I'll post some more replays in a bit. If you drop and a Z isn't prepared, you can flat out win the game if not do terrible damage. You get map control and pick off any stray ovies. Good build.
Ghosts are better for the purpose of taking out infestors for a few reasons. For one, you're not going to just go sacking ghosts trying to snipe off whatever infestor they have. Two, they can still have muta + infestor. Three, you need ghosts to take out BL in the late game anyways. Four, you have a bunch of rax and generally only one starport.
Ghosts make a LOT more sense, banshees seem silly.
|
On July 08 2011 01:41 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base. Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/. For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push. But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win.
Nukes are fine really late game v Z. I find that there are more important things you need to spend your money on first. My priority late game, after getting all my infrastructure and bases up is
1. Couple more OCs then sack SCVs for bigger standing army. 2. Planetary fortresses for defense 3. Few more OCs 4. Nukes.
|
1) Thanks a lot my tournament play will benefit greatly from this. 2)What do you think about reactor hellion? It is my standard atm, and i picked it up from Kas replays so its got to be good  3)Please make such a guide for tvp, we terran could use them standard plays a LOT. 4) Is there a safe 1 rax FE for tvt? and what do you do tvp right now? reactor first two rax with expo after first/second marauder another barracks then reactor starport? Also how do you feel about 3 gate expand against 1rax FE in this MU. Is the FE worth it at all?
|
On July 08 2011 02:11 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 01:41 Ahelvin wrote:On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base. Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/. For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push. But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win. Well, I'm aware I'm bad. The point I'm trying to make though is: Tank/Marine/Medivac is as standard as it gets. And adding ghosts and nukes isn't that expensive...
well I stopped reading there
|
I do enjoy this guide very much so.
|
On July 08 2011 05:40 TheAwesomeAll wrote:1) Thanks a lot my tournament play will benefit greatly from this. 2)What do you think about reactor hellion? It is my standard atm, and i picked it up from Kas replays so its got to be good  3)Please make such a guide for tvp, we terran could use them standard plays a LOT. 4) Is there a safe 1 rax FE for tvt? and what do you do tvp right now? reactor first two rax with expo after first/second marauder another barracks then reactor starport? Also how do you feel about 3 gate expand against 1rax FE in this MU. Is the FE worth it at all?
2. Reactor helion is good on certain wide maps where it's hard for Z to defend their entire nat such as metal. I feel, you're more likely to damage with reaper in to blue flame or 2rax and reactor helion can get you behind very easily if Z can defend your helion pressure without losing any drones. It's not bad by any means. I use a reactor helion expand from time to time. I'll include that as well in my guide later on as well, reactor helion expand or 1-1-1 super aggro. The thing is, if you don't do crippling damage with any build that delays your expansion, Z is FAR ahead as he'll have mutas out and you usually won't have stim, marines, medivacs and be able to support turrets. Look at the games from SC2 release to Decemberish, that's pretty much what happened everytime and man it was FRUSTRATING. Reactor helion does no damage, banshee minimal. Z gets mutas and then while you're taking your nat, he's taking his 3rd and has 30 mutas forcing you back everytime you move out. It's definitely important to keep this build in the metagame as well to keep Z on their feet.
3. Hehe I pretty much nogas FE v P but often swithc builds depending on maps. My TvP used to be terrible and I just spent a month fixing it to the point where I was beating Top GM (something I wouldn't have ever imagned a month ago). I'll consider it but I still feel like I need some more time developing my TvP.
4. I often nogas FE in TvT in to double gas then another rax, fact, starport, tank. It's safe but T can still punish this with early game reaper pressure as marines are scarce and if you misread a situation, you can flat out lose. If you're looking for safe 1rax FE though, that would be it. TvP I either nogas FE, marauder expand, 2rax reactor first, cloak banshee in to double expand (one hidden, MVP style) depending on map and positions and what I feel like doing. Yeah the FE is worth it v a 3gate expand, why not? You'll probably get contained but that's fine. Make sure you cut scvs once you're saturated at your main, get stim and reactor medivac and then push out. P will often have delayed tech which you have to take advantage of in that small time frame.
|
On July 08 2011 05:43 Huggerz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 02:11 imbecile wrote: Well, I'm aware I'm bad. The point I'm trying to make though is: Tank/Marine/Medivac is as standard as it gets. And adding ghosts and nukes isn't that expensive... well I stopped reading there
Sure. For the cost of 5-6 tanks you get it all up, the ghosts, the 2 academies, cloak and the nukes. And if you wanna get 6 tanks out in that time you need to get all the ghosts and nukes up, you'd need a second factory. Defensively 12 tanks are not much better than 6 behind a wall. And offensively they are not faster as well.
More tanks are nice ... but they don't force the zerg to completely change his playstyle. All he needs is more of the same ... and if you don't wanna lose them to muta or lings, you have to push very slowly while the zerg can macro up in peace.
While 6 tanks can shoot at creep tumors and lings at best, 2 ghosts can already wipe out production and economy or tech.
|
Thank you very much for the guide
|
|
i love you. thank you. now im struggling with protoss and destroying zergs ha
|
Sure. For the cost of 5-6 tanks you get it all up, the ghosts, the 2 academies, cloak and the nukes. And if you wanna get 6 tanks out in that time you need to get all the ghosts and nukes up, you'd need a second factory. Defensively 12 tanks are not much better than 6 behind a wall. And offensively they are not faster as well.
First off, stop and never try to try this. 12 tanks over 6 is life and death against zerg ground. Ghosts and nukes have no place until infestors/tier3 and a stalemate, respectively. And yes, 12 tanks over 6 is a LOT faster. You can 2-4 tank hop at a time, and still have 8-10 tanks sieged. 6 you can only do 1-2 at a time.
Dude this 2 fac close position. I tried it on shakuras, and on XNC following a 11/12 rax (I'm almost 1.7k master, but a habitual 1-1-1'er in every MU) and even tho I suck with 2 raxing, that tank follow up is a 100% safe IMO to any cheese all in against my FE. The push? Insane how hard it hits lol
Dude even did a fast lair + speed banes into mass muta. Easy peasy take out his third, and push his nat hard as he hits me with mutas. Makes it 1 base zerg vs 2 base terran, just gotta survive muta play. I feel the damage if you control and hop well is like... definite taking out an army/base,.
|
Extremely well done guide. gg
|
good stuff man, nice guide to read.
|
On July 08 2011 07:07 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +Sure. For the cost of 5-6 tanks you get it all up, the ghosts, the 2 academies, cloak and the nukes. And if you wanna get 6 tanks out in that time you need to get all the ghosts and nukes up, you'd need a second factory. Defensively 12 tanks are not much better than 6 behind a wall. And offensively they are not faster as well.
First off, stop and never try to try this. 12 tanks over 6 is life and death against zerg ground. Ghosts and nukes have no place until infestors/tier3 and a stalemate, respectively. And yes, 12 tanks over 6 is a LOT faster. You can 2-4 tank hop at a time, and still have 8-10 tanks sieged. 6 you can only do 1-2 at a time. Dude this 2 fac close position. I tried it on shakuras, and on XNC following a 11/12 rax (I'm almost 1.7k master, but a habitual 1-1-1'er in every MU) and even tho I suck with 2 raxing, that tank follow up is a 100% safe IMO to any cheese all in against my FE. The push? Insane how hard it hits lol Dude even did a fast lair + speed banes into mass muta. Easy peasy take out his third, and push his nat hard as he hits me with mutas. Makes it 1 base zerg vs 2 base terran, just gotta survive muta play. I feel the damage if you control and hop well is like... definite taking out an army/base,.
Nice. This is the 2fact siege tank push you're talking about yeah? It really relies on you doing a lot of damage as you get late stim, late combat, late medivacs and late attack upgrades so you need to do a lot of damage. The thing is, close positions, you can get a good siege on them before they have mutas out and then turret up as you contain them. Longer maps, if they can get mutas out, you are going to be in a lot of trouble.
|
+ Show Spoiler + Your SCV scouts gas and drones pulling out after 100 gas (DRG v sCfOu style). Z is going to get speed and hatch. They'll have a weaker mineral income because of this. You need to be back in your main at about 5 minutes but any drone kills you get at this stage are HUGE. If you kill 5+ drones, do a tank + stim push transition. It's safe if Z feels they got too behind and all in, feel they need to get back by taking fast 3rd or if they try to drone up too hard and overcompensate.
I dont get this. You say that zerg will get speed and hatch. You mean a 3rd hatch early or are you talking about the natural hatch?
|
On July 08 2011 08:14 minimalistic wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Your SCV scouts gas and drones pulling out after 100 gas (DRG v sCfOu style). Z is going to get speed and hatch. They'll have a weaker mineral income because of this. You need to be back in your main at about 5 minutes but any drone kills you get at this stage are HUGE. If you kill 5+ drones, do a tank + stim push transition. It's safe if Z feels they got too behind and all in, feel they need to get back by taking fast 3rd or if they try to drone up too hard and overcompensate. I dont get this. You say that zerg will get speed and hatch. You mean a 3rd hatch early or are you talking about the natural hatch?
Er sorry, I meant natural hatch. I can see how you might have read 3rd hatch. I'll fix it.
|
Noooooo!!! You revealed all the builds i've been using on the ladder haha
Great guide though!
|
Is the OP bunker rush really OP? Has it been used by any pro-gamers?
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
Impresive guide, im not terran but i can show this to some friends, i would be glad if some day i see a guide like this for Protoss.
|
On July 08 2011 08:42 archonOOid wrote: Is the OP bunker rush really OP? Has it been used by any pro-gamers?
Well, pros don't play in close positions but I bet they'd use it if they could. There are similar things you can do on xel and on crossfire where you can place a marine next to a wall and use a bunker to wall the marine off. Pros do those bunker placements and I'm sure they'd do this if they played close positions metal.
|
On July 08 2011 09:15 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 08:42 archonOOid wrote: Is the OP bunker rush really OP? Has it been used by any pro-gamers? Well, pros don't play in close positions but I bet they'd use it if they could. There are similar things you can do on xel and on crossfire where you can place a marine next to a wall and use a bunker to wall the marine off. Pros do those bunker placements and I'm sure they'd do this if they played close positions metal. Watch pros stream ladder. Not directed at you, just off what you said -- they bunker rush close position all the times whenever I watch. 11/12 rax or 12/13 is what I see, and do the bunker block or bunker hop on expos.
A bunker is not unusual to get up if you space it back and build next closer. I see a lot of people doing that now to enforce a lot of early lings so you regain econ lead.
|
loved the metal trick ahhaahah
|
|
crazy good so well done great guide
|
great write-up! I gotta practice doing more focus-firing ^^
|
Wow thank you very much for this post. TvZ is definitely something I've struggled with as I've been learning, hopefully this can help me break my plateau and get Diamond
|
Wow, thank you so much! I have just started playing 1v1s again after a long school break, and I have been looking for some TvZ guidance lately, but this guide seems to cover everything!
|
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
|
You are AWESOME! TvZ has basically made me quit SC2 the past 2 or so weeks and you really covered all the bases with this guide. Excellent, excellent work!
|
So... is there any method to deal with burrowed banelings or must I always get a raven in fear of this crap thats made me lose like 15 games?
Awesome guide, btw, I was going to switch to zerg because of the new season, then I saw this guide.
|
Wow what a great guide. I'll definitely watch you if I see that you're streaming. Thanks for the guide
|
wow did not know about the tanks vs banelings...
|
On July 08 2011 14:17 deathtrance wrote: So... is there any method to deal with burrowed banelings or must I always get a raven in fear of this crap thats made me lose like 15 games?
Awesome guide, btw, I was going to switch to zerg because of the new season, then I saw this guide.
I prefer scanning rather than using a raven.
You need to be able to see the Z army from far away and a Raven can't serve that purpose as it would just get picked off by mutas and replacing it is annoying. Baneling bombs aren't that popular on the ladder maps from what I've experienced but more so on say crossfire where it's very easy to lay and get a T army clumped up and predict which way T is going. I might get a raven when I play on that map. Gas is quite important to Terran (believe it or not). You want that tank and medivac production up all game along with your upgrades. Z shouldn't have too many banes around the map if you have proper map presence and typically you'll only need to scan once or twice when pushing. Yes it makes sense to use a raven but as per the current metagame, I think scans are better ATM.
|
On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote: Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
x2. i also have this problem
|
On July 08 2011 15:46 mols0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote: Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario? x2. i also have this problem
Make 2 bunkers and the great wall of supply depots (in your nat of course), siege a tank behind your bunkers, make sure you have ample turrets to cover your butt from muta.
Don't rally to your outlying forces, rally below your ramp and keep them there. Use the marines rallied to fend off muta counter, wreck his expansions and bases with your push.
Profit.
|
Excellent guide!! Both for Terrans who are trying to learn the art of TvZ and for Zergs who have trouble distinguishing the different builds a Terran may do.
Most definately this will stay bookmarked for further study by a lot of players, even players who are not so low ranked. We need more like this, high Masters who care for the community enough to take a few hours of their time and share their experience with lowbies.
I would suggest to consider giving advice over this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225571), for every time i do this build, high diamond terrans seem to just die. I have yet to see a guy who survives it, so I only use it as anger management after a 2rax scv allin loss.
And again, a sincere thanks for the effort put in this guide.
|
Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after. If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack. Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to). Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic. A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust). I hope this is helpful!
|
You're awesome. Hope your tvps are going much better by now, I saw the reactor hellion with no marine opening on tal darim and thought this guy is absolutely nutss. Watched all those replays, gonne check these out for sure. I've been doing quite well against zerg playing my own style after opening reactor hellion in top diamond and it's worked well, but i'll definitely learn this style too. :D
|
|
On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote: Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after. If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack. Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to). Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic. A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust). I hope this is helpful! ...I played a 2 base spanishwa fast third straight to infestors my first time doing the close position 2 fac tank push. It was an auto win vs infestor first late gas. They just can't deal with tanks. Going ghosts before tanks is so stupid.
TBH I had never had a solid opening vs spanishwa late gas style other than a blue flame drop. Now? I just push with 6 tanks and no stimmed marines and push hard into them and force a LOT of units or a GG.
What's with people going ghosts. Ghosts have no defense capabilities. Ghost have very limited offensive attacks. Tanks? I can siege a tank near a cliff or ramp and cut off a route to his base. I can tank hop faster than I could attack with the ghost marine army and get beat back and have to go again basically.
Tank > ghost in almost every single possible scenario.
|
On July 08 2011 16:20 saritenite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 15:46 mols0n wrote:On July 08 2011 12:57 Trollhammer wrote: Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario? x2. i also have this problem Make 2 bunkers and the great wall of supply depots (in your nat of course), siege a tank behind your bunkers, make sure you have ample turrets to cover your butt from muta. Don't rally to your outlying forces, rally below your ramp and keep them there. Use the marines rallied to fend off muta counter, wreck his expansions and bases with your push. Profit.
Pretty much this. 1-2 bunkers and a supply wall on every map will go a long way. Reinforcements should always be rallied to nat as, if Z is doing any ling,bling,muta style, you won't be able to reinforce units individually anyways. Always clear and hold towers as you push to help determine if Z is countering. If Z counters with EVERYTHING, just go home, take out their army and go again.
On July 08 2011 16:42 Notfragile wrote: Excellent guide!! Both for Terrans who are trying to learn the art of TvZ and for Zergs who have trouble distinguishing the different builds a Terran may do.
Most definately this will stay bookmarked for further study by a lot of players, even players who are not so low ranked. We need more like this, high Masters who care for the community enough to take a few hours of their time and share their experience with lowbies.
I would suggest to consider giving advice over this (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225571), for every time i do this build, high diamond terrans seem to just die. I have yet to see a guy who survives it, so I only use it as anger management after a 2rax scv allin loss.
And again, a sincere thanks for the effort put in this guide.
I've never faced Jecho on ladder or any Z doing this attack. I read what Jecho wrote with how much stuff you should have while doing it and I've ran in to Zs with a bit less. Basically, what I'd do is bunker up and focus fire banes with tanks. After I stop the push I'd go very drop heavy while taking 3rd, pretty much the same thing I do against JulyZergesque baneling pressure.
On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote: Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after. If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack. Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to). Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic. A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust). I hope this is helpful!
How woul you determine this? Only way to know for sure is scanning and I don't think the build is that good that the metagame calls for that ATM. Scanning is always a gamble as well. You'd have to have made tanks to defend anyways by the time you'd get dropships to scout that way because if you don't, you can just lose to some roach bane all in.
On July 08 2011 18:47 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 16:44 Kornholi0 wrote: Can I add something that I didn't read (or let me know if you said what I said but differently)?
If you see your opponent play "destinyisque" aka hatch first or overpool into mass drone 2 base infestor. A really really really good way to not only punish but sometimes straight up win you the game or at least set you up for an amazing macro position, is to of course scout the infestors, but to get ghosts instead of tanks. Ghost Marine Medivac is very powerful, especially because early game 1 EMP can knock out the initial 4~ infestors energy which is really big especially if you can push right after. If that doesn't work, do constant drops at multiple locations (its very hard to deal with especially with infestors) if he has his units spread out at his bases take that time to scan and kill creep at his front. Expand every time you do a 3 prong attack. Once you've successfully either killed a mineral line, or done infestors damage (trade infestors for ghosts if you have to). Push mid-game with a 3-4 base push of marines, marauders, BFH and ghosts. Split accordingly and doing a drop at the same time is really cute. If zerg makes an aggressive switch to mutalisk, just go mech or use your already massed marines to finish him off while he is teching. If zerg fakes infestors (gets it for hive) and rushes broodlords or ultralisk, broodlords are easily sniped, and ultralisk in that small of numbers are just pathetic. A thing to watch out for is a roach-baneling all-in (if you metagame the ghosts too much you may not have enough units to defend against a baneling bust). I hope this is helpful! ...I played a 2 base spanishwa fast third straight to infestors my first time doing the close position 2 fac tank push. It was an auto win vs infestor first late gas. They just can't deal with tanks. Going ghosts before tanks is so stupid. TBH I had never had a solid opening vs spanishwa late gas style other than a blue flame drop. Now? I just push with 6 tanks and no stimmed marines and push hard into them and force a LOT of units or a GG. What's with people going ghosts. Ghosts have no defense capabilities. Ghost have very limited offensive attacks. Tanks? I can siege a tank near a cliff or ramp and cut off a route to his base. I can tank hop faster than I could attack with the ghost marine army and get beat back and have to go again basically. Tank > ghost in almost every single possible scenario.
Nice. I've never tried the build v late gas but it sounds like an excellent idea. You can get some sick contains going as well. I'll try it out next time. It is really really strong against infestor first as well thoguh because you can just spread out marines and use bunkers with your push.
+ Show Spoiler +Some Z doing ling infestor style play in GSTL ATM. Fxotgun v some NSHoSeo player. T doing tank push with bunker contain. No chance for Z, not even close, ez pz
|
You use mumble, what a bro.
great guide too!
|
You are the best. very good strategies and explanation found right here, can you make a guide in TvT and TvP :D
|
On July 08 2011 19:38 The.Doctor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Some Z doing ling infestor style play in GSTL ATM. Fxotgun v some NSHoSeo player. T doing tank push with bunker contain. No chance for Z, not even close, ez pz + Show Spoiler +While it's true that it worked, that had more to do with the fact that blueflame hellions killed *27* drones and like 10+ lings at around the 8-9 minute mark or something.
|
Man this is awesome, thanks !
|
Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank.
|
On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote: Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank.
If it's that late in the game you should have the infrastructure to produce Ghosts to counteract Broodlords. They're also quite good against Ultralisks and you can build some marauders as well if he's going heavy on their numbers (which is usually a terrible idea in ZvT).
|
Fuck this took long to write. IDK why I did. Just felt like it. Needed some stress relief maybe, whatever. No one else wrote a TvZ guide and I've been feeling like I could add to TL for months now.
I don't think too many people are going to read this as it's not any auto-win build or gimicky new thing. This is just standard play. Enjoy.
I don't really want to plug my stream, no one ever watches so fuck it.
Great guide! loved it, and i read entirely. Would love to watch your stream.. just saying, you should stream ^^.
Thanks
|
At the korean transition after 2rax.:
@75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, start combat shields
After 2nd tank i suppose you start siege mode not combat shields again?
|
this is a fantastic guide, well done ^^
|
This is exactly what we seem to be missing. A good quality guide for a TvX that explains not only a build order, but the general feel of the matchup including explanations on why certain things happen the way they are. I was actually writing up a general guide about the Terran mindset and how to make decisions, but between this and Day9's Terran week I've scapped it. I do hope someone can do the same for TvP and TvT in this format.
|
For the 2 fact siege tank push(auto-win on close positions) you specify to float the CC down ASAP to get the extra gas income.
I assume you get the third gas as soon as the CC floats down, but when do you get the 4th gas? Is it instantly as well or will you delay it?
|
great work. i am a plat terran and this guide inspired me to plactice more
|
Nice. I've never tried the build v late gas but it sounds like an excellent idea. You can get some sick contains going as well. I'll try it out next time. It is really really strong against infestor first as well thoguh because you can just spread out marines and use bunkers with your push.
Your 2 fac close position was the game vs nrgostijy or somethin like that where he went fast infestors. That alone is just dirty enough for me, gas late or not. Against the late gas the 2 times I've done it so far, it does significant, if not game ending, damage. Late gas = late lair = late spire = late bane speed = late ling speed. Sure, 4-5 queens and 4-5 spine crawlers, but you still have slings and slow banes against a well spread tank marine push, with heavy tank count lol.
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
Wall off nat with sim city with rax bunker depots etc. If your push is strong enough, the mutas always come back. I left 25 mutas in my base with +1 attack yesterday and attacked because what can I kill if I go back? 3? I go to his base, take out third, nat, and entire army + mutas when he was forced to engage with them.
So, in short, attack if your unprepared for mutas. I can't count the armies I've sacked to get turrets and 2 thors out in time to defend that fucking murder of mutas.
|
On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote: Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank.
Late game, you'll have your ghosts for snipe hopefully and since you have tech lab rax you can start adding marauders too. Note, if he has just ultras, don't siege tanks. Unsieged tanks are a lot better vs ultras. If he has ultra ling bane, you want to focus fire banes with tanks like normal and then stutter step v ultras. The thing with ultras is they're very slow. Always stutter step and kite them with marauders and marines. If you've had your upgrades going all game, they should be no problem. If however you fell behind on upgrades, you are going to be in a world of hurt against 3/5 ultras.
On July 09 2011 02:34 minimalistic wrote: At the korean transition after 2rax.:
@75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, start combat shields
After 2nd tank i suppose you start siege mode not combat shields again?
Nice catch, fixed.
On July 09 2011 04:41 Ghyslyn wrote: For the 2 fact siege tank push(auto-win on close positions) you specify to float the CC down ASAP to get the extra gas income.
I assume you get the third gas as soon as the CC floats down, but when do you get the 4th gas? Is it instantly as well or will you delay it?
You don't want to start your 4th gas right away because then your mineral income will suffer too much. I don't have any specific timing for that build, but you can try adding it once you have 5 tanks.
|
On July 09 2011 01:14 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote: Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank. If it's that late in the game you should have the infrastructure to produce Ghosts to counteract Broodlords. They're also quite good against Ultralisks and you can build some marauders as well if he's going heavy on their numbers (which is usually a terrible idea in ZvT).
Ghosts is best counter for Ultras? Never even thought.
It seems to happen a lot when I got tank marine med. Out of the blue 10 Ultras are produced and they just run over me. I don't feel like I am that far behind zerg. They can go 10 Ultras on 2 base if they are shifty enough.
|
|
He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard
|
On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote: He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard
Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
|
On July 09 2011 06:16 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote: He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
That statement my friend is priceless.
|
This is mind-blowing! I've never known how to play TvZ and now just by reading I feel like a boss, thanks!
|
On July 09 2011 06:16 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote: He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
They just want to hug you. ;_;
|
Thank you for this great guide. My win ratio against zerg is increasing
|
This is very good stuff. I decided to lift the Nada v. Coco game build too and have been doing it but you have added much more insight in this post. Look forward to incorporating the various tips in my play, especially how to interpret scouting information and the baneling target fire tip. Watching the replays now.
|
In TvZ while everyone is doing +1 weapons for marines as priority, im doing + 1 armor. Also + 1 armor for factory units is better than +1 weapons for factory units. People try to justify +1 weapons for tanks because it counters + 1 armor for lings, but you should not use tanks to kill lings - that should be left up to the hellions.
Every single time tanks siege up late , they're dead as useless. Alpha strike at range 13 is a necessity, because tanks are expensive in gas and rarely pay for themselves. As seen in the GSL, all the terrans have to run their marines away from banelings even when tanks are already sieged and alpha strike at max range.
As the game goes on, zergs get + 1 melee attack as well, and tanks die so much faster. Every time broodlords come out in late game, tanks have to unsiege and the + 3 weapons don't help, in fact they cause so much friendly fire to the marines its better to not siege at all.
This is zerg's best possible scenario and terran's worst.
When you have around like 7+ tanks in late game tanks with +3 armor(tank), tanks unsieged with BFH hellions do much better against charging zerg army.(less friendly fire dmg as well)
See the Upgrade Analysis Data thread benefit table- armor upgrades are better for factory units and of course you should be upgrading both 3/3 for bio.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116789.
Should consider reading it, helps for me TvZ.
BOth T and Z are triple upgrading, 3/3 for bio and continuously from armory, and zerg gets armor carapace + melee attack + spire.
|
Ok I've been practicing 2 Rax into Siege Tank/Stim push and I have to say this is just stupid how good it is compared to what I did before. My old build was a reactored Hellion opener into the same push, but there were so many little things wrong with it that made the push look really small. The way you laid it out actually gives ~30 marines when I push which is almost double what my old build provided (assuming I keep the initial marines alive). I especially like it because it's less of a deviation from what the overall goal of the build is. Focusing money on Hellions means less marines for my push later and half the time you can't even use them for map control once they have ling speed anyway xD
Doc do you have any intentions of doing this for the other races? TvT would be super helpful since I don't exactly have solid builds for that either :D
|
|
What prompts the +1 armor vs muta play on your mech? I assume it is about the bounce damage but is it about your tanks or is about thors and what other advantages are you getting out of it?
|
Both reps vs darkcell he says you're terrible after u rape him LOL
|
i never see a pro who goes for +1 armor on mech units..
i think at +2 attack you can 2shoot mutas with thors...
never thought about the advantage of tanks with armor upgrades against the zerglings..
|
On July 10 2011 03:58 vaderseven wrote: What prompts the +1 armor vs muta play on your mech? I assume it is about the bounce damage but is it about your tanks or is about thors and what other advantages are you getting out of it?
As long as you're focus firing, your tanks will still be 1 shotting banelings (35 attack v 30 hp). If they get a ling armor upgrade, you won't be 1 shotting anymore but every ling will virtually be in the red for your marines to clean up. If he does get +1 armor on his lings (which he will), get +1 attack next. Armor so thor can take a lot more hits and same with tank. I usually do it in the order of +1 attack then armor after that b/c the tanks will now do 38 damage v lings and even if he gets +3 armor, your tanks still 1 shot.
|
Marines + medis on one hotkey, tanks on another. No exceptions.
I'm 1900+ terran with 60%+ win rate and I think this is a foolish move. I see a lot of high ranking terrans do it, but they are playing poorly.
Using your suggested method: When I want to micro my marines and I need to move command them away to space out vs lets say zealots w/ out legs my medivacs stop healing and move with them. This is a huge problem for obvious reasons.
If you want to move your medivacs AND your marines you need to issue to move commands. Takes little effort if you're over 200 apm during battles and you will be putting out a lot more healing.
I'm a BW player so using all 10 hotkeys is something I'm used to. I see a lot of terrans with the 1 key for all units and the 3 key for all production and the 4 key for all CCs. I think it's more important to separate marines from medivacs on a key than it is to separate tanks... having medivacs move without healing causes a lot of people to lose games even on GSL level.
My hotkeys are usually like this but they change mid game
7-0 are production with 0 being ccs 1 mnm or hellions depending on opening later being mnm 2 medivacs 3 tanks 4-6 are my drops, vikings, counter attack marine/med squad, ravens, ghosts, whatever.
|
On July 10 2011 07:04 starcraft911 wrote:I'm 1900+ terran with 60%+ win rate and I think this is a foolish move. I see a lot of high ranking terrans do it, but they are playing poorly. Using your suggested method: When I want to micro my marines and I need to move command them away to space out vs lets say zealots w/ out legs my medivacs stop healing and move with them. This is a huge problem for obvious reasons. If you want to move your medivacs AND your marines you need to issue to move commands. Takes little effort if you're over 200 apm during battles and you will be putting out a lot more healing. I'm a BW player so using all 10 hotkeys is something I'm used to. I see a lot of terrans with the 1 key for all units and the 3 key for all production and the 4 key for all CCs. I think it's more important to separate marines from medivacs on a key than it is to separate tanks... having medivacs move without healing causes a lot of people to lose games even on GSL level. My hotkeys are usually like this but they change mid game 7-0 are production with 0 being ccs 1 mnm or hellions depending on opening later being mnm 2 medivacs 3 tanks 4-6 are my drops, vikings, counter attack marine/med squad, ravens, ghosts, whatever.
I used to do that but found that just putting everything on 1 isn't that bad. In battle against say a gateway army, i just ctrl+click my marines to pull the mbehind marauders, medivacs still healing, everyone is happy.
|
I must say again, love the transitions. Cut off 20-40 seconds on many of my similar builds. I honestly, as a non 2 raxer, didn't know 11/12 rax was so potent compared to 12/14 rax.
Personally, the fast stim drop transition is about the sex cross map for me. The 2 fac tank push is becoming a staple in my 2 base pressure to secure a safe third. I found with the fast stim drop that the absolute damage is so insane when you execute it decently. Sets up solid map control until he can get a size of mutas to stop some drops, letting me get a fast third and 2-3 fac for a tank push follow up.
Good shit man. Needed to get away from my 1-1-1s. You know its sad when I never 2 rax, now 1650 masters, and even I can take down a 1750+ zerg in 6 minutes with a 2 rax marine push lol
|
Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks!
|
On July 11 2011 01:37 ale_jrb wrote: Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks!
Well the thing is, with Terran, you can do almost any transition because Z won't know it's coming and if you play it correctly, you can do a lot of damage with any, as long as you don't overcommit in non favorable conditions. E.g. you can always do a tank stim push, but if you see he has roaches lings and banes, it's best you fall back, add another factory, try dropping while making your 3rd CC. I'd say the best thing to do is a tank stim push as you start learning or blue flame after 12/14 raxing. Both are VERY safe and can transition very well against every scenario.
|
When will you do a nice commentated stream next time Doctor? I am sure we would take a look to see you in action.
|
On July 11 2011 05:27 minimalistic wrote: When will you do a nice commentated stream next time Doctor? I am sure we would take a look to see you in action.
Hmm I haven't been streaming as much as I used to but I guess I might stream today after a few tournament matches and NASL is done.
|
On July 11 2011 05:20 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 01:37 ale_jrb wrote: Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks! Well the thing is, with Terran, you can do almost any transition because Z won't know it's coming and if you play it correctly, you can do a lot of damage with any, as long as you don't overcommit in non favorable conditions. E.g. you can always do a tank stim push, but if you see he has roaches lings and banes, it's best you fall back, add another factory, try dropping while making your 3rd CC. I'd say the best thing to do is a tank stim push as you start learning or blue flame after 12/14 raxing. Both are VERY safe and can transition very well against every scenario.
Cheers.
|
This was amazing.
The one thing I feel its missing (or perhaps I didn't notice where you said it) is a notation on what the standard timing is for mutalisks and when to be ready for them.
|
Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
|
On July 11 2011 12:49 Trollhammer wrote: Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
you just press tab to switch between production buildings, rather than dedicating different hotkeys to them. I'm considering adding this to my own setup as well.
|
On July 11 2011 12:49 Trollhammer wrote: Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
4aaaaaaaaaaaaTABsssTABdd
I just find it easier, I do have some pretty small hands, but if you prefer 456 then do it that way TBH, whatever works best for you when it comes to hotkeys. As long as you're using them all, how you use them doesn't really matter.
|
I really look forward to anything you are going to add that is specific on fighting certain mid compositions.
Again, great guide, I was surprised to read something so well done on TL.net
|
On July 07 2011 19:14 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 19:07 Danglars wrote:If you want to win just 1aing, go play protoss. Fighting, fighting to keep reading after this. He might be a saint with on black wound, keep reading! Like dropping a big juicy dessert on the table, and saying the chef likes to wipe his butt with his hands after defecating. Like meeting a young attractive girl and hearing on the first date she used to be a man and wonders if you'll be okay with her going back. So too is a guide delivering so much content (that includes with a no-nonsense approach to marine/tank TvZ) with such balance rabble as you include in the opener. my TvP was around 10-20%. Yeah, seriously. I've since gotten my TvP a LOT better I hope, too, your opinions of Protoss will improve as well. Otherwise, great effort. Hahahahaha. Yeah I know I know. I just used to be so frustrated and there was a style I had a friend do where he would stay on 2 base and just do a 2 base colli + blink push that was SOO hard to stop. I'll edit it out, for you.
Thanks man! I like posts where I can give my full heartfelt: GOOD JOB GREAT GUIDE to it. Balance whining makes me do that mixed bag sentiment.
Everything except that one line was GOOD JOB GREAT POST, now ALL of it is so great!
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
Nice guide. Thx alot. Waiting for more details about dealing with middle game zergs combos + BO desision making after first push.
|
As a 1700 masters terran, I read this entire guide top to bottom and found it extremely useful as I have no reliable build order or transitions against Z. (I usually just go reactor helion -> cloak banshee lol) but I appreciate this and am definitely looking forward to improving.
|
Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)
+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On: Larger maps
Good Against: Delayed gas builds Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is: Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) @150 minerals 3rd rax @75 minerals refinery @150 minerals 4th rax @75 minerals 2nd gas @150 minerals 2nd OC @100% 3rd rax tech lab @100% tech lab start stim Cut marine production a bit to add @125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons. @150/100 factory @75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals: The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss.
First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc 
Now my question(s):
I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed.
He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it?
Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play?
And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too.
I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well.
best regards,
|
Canada120 Posts
Nice OP, you really have spent a lot of time preparing this MU. Not sure why the 2 fac tank push v Ost is in there though.. the win doesn't really have anything to do with the build. How would your strat have changed w.o close pos?
|
On July 12 2011 07:44 saaaa wrote:Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On: Larger maps
Good Against: Delayed gas builds Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is: Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) @150 minerals 3rd rax @75 minerals refinery @150 minerals 4th rax @75 minerals 2nd gas @150 minerals 2nd OC @100% 3rd rax tech lab @100% tech lab start stim Cut marine production a bit to add @125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons. @150/100 factory @75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals: The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss. First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc  Now my question(s): I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed. He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it? Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play? And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too. I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well. best regards,
I just rewatched NaDa v Coca and NaDa did it a bit different from what I wrote actually. He goes 4rax before double gas where I go rax gas rax gas. I think my way times out just fine though as when your 3rd rax finishes, you have just enough gas for a tech lab and then stim when your tech lab finishes.
I've heard of Bomber's way, haven't tried it yet but I'll give test that way out as well.
Also, about getting additional reactors, I don't see why he would do that as I don't see how it would affect his timings and macro. Maybe he has a gas surplus or is powering? IDK, I'll have to re-look at it.
I think a medivac first is better than viking. A medivac with marines can pick off stray overlords almost as well as a viking. You also have the potential to drop in the Z main (which you should do first). If, with that drop, I see Z isn't getting mutas, I add a viking after that to pick off stray ovies. If you go viking first, your chances of doing drop damage with a medivac after a viking is greatly reduced. Thus, get the best of both worlds, make a medivac first.
|
On July 12 2011 08:14 AGsc wrote: Nice OP, you really have spent a lot of time preparing this MU. Not sure why the 2 fac tank push v Ost is in there though.. the win doesn't really have anything to do with the build. How would your strat have changed w.o close pos?
The win has everything to do with the strat. I specifically say that the strat is best in close positions and it's almost a guaranteed way to win in those conditions (though, any push close positions is really strong and effective, 2fact tank I believe is best.).
|
So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost.
Btw, I'm a gold terran.
So what's one to do against ultra/ling?
|
Thank you for posting this. This is a veritable gold mine. I've been reading and re-reading to synthesize everything.
A couple quick questions:
- Do you have a way of making the reaper-first builds 6-pool safe? Or is this (as it seems to me) a straight build order loss? - If going reaper first on Scrap Station, do you recommend Jinro's ultra-forward Rax&Factory wall-off? I'm not confident about how safe the timings are here, especially during the Rax-Lift. - Would you ever drop your expo directly at your natural on a slightly bigger map (say, on Terminus or Tal'Darim)?
Thanks for the guide. Please do expound on the mid-game section when you have a chance. I'm really looking forward to it.
|
Zurich15313 Posts
|
On July 12 2011 13:39 deathtrance wrote: So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost.
Btw, I'm a gold terran.
So what's one to do against ultra/ling? It has a lot to do with micro and positioning and UPGRADES!!! First off all, although it may seem counter-intuitive, you want the ultras to be attacking your marines so that they do not get bonus damage. Practice your kiting and spreading micro to minimize splash damage from both the ultras and your tanks, and make sure your tank lines are nicely spread out and deep to draw the zerg into over-committing. The more chokes the merrier, as this will maximize your tanks' damage and disallow ling surrounds. You can certainly beat ultra ling with standard marine/tank/medivac play however special units can help too. Ghost snipe is okay if you are very good with it (there is a guide on how to snipe effectively on tl, just search) Thors with cannons do fairly well but is tricky to use and thors kinda suck anyway except a few against muta heavy strategies. Blue flame hellions can clear out mass zerglings very quickly but do tickling damage to upgraded ultralisks. Again, upgrades are key as unupgraded marines against fully upgraded ultras is humorous in a grotesque sort of way.
|
The purpose is the its easier to navigate to each section of the guide, rather having to do massive scrolling. I don't see what the problem is.
|
On July 12 2011 13:39 deathtrance wrote: So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost.
Btw, I'm a gold terran.
So what's one to do against ultra/ling?
He had to have had something before ultras popped out no? If he didn't, you can just attack with mass marine and unsieged tanks before they do as lings are terrible in mass marine v mass ling battles. In general, you should be dropping like crazy but let's say he does get ultras out, you should see this coming with your drops in which case you need to make marauders and kite the ultras. Unsieged tanks are actually better against ultras unless they have more lings than ultras or if they have banes mixed in. Try to fight closer to the Z when he has ultras so you can keep kiting back rather than having no place to run if it's close to your base.
Oh and if you haven't been keeping up in upgrades, you're so screwed.
On July 12 2011 14:46 pwei wrote: Thank you for posting this. This is a veritable gold mine. I've been reading and re-reading to synthesize everything.
A couple quick questions:
- Do you have a way of making the reaper-first builds 6-pool safe? Or is this (as it seems to me) a straight build order loss? - If going reaper first on Scrap Station, do you recommend Jinro's ultra-forward Rax&Factory wall-off? I'm not confident about how safe the timings are here, especially during the Rax-Lift. - Would you ever drop your expo directly at your natural on a slightly bigger map (say, on Terminus or Tal'Darim)?
Thanks for the guide. Please do expound on the mid-game section when you have a chance. I'm really looking forward to it.
I don't think I've ever been 6 pooled lol. Maybe once in a tournament by a Bronze player but I had a wall. Depending on the wall off you have, if the tech lab is facing towards your main and away from the attacking lings, you can just cancel it and make a marine while repairing with a few scvs or just go ahead with the reaper. If the tech lab is facing the lings for your wall, your best bet is to add a bunker in your mineral line, another rax and then wait til he out he destroys the forming tech lab and try to escort a marine over with scvs. IDK really, never been in that situation but that's what I feel would be the most logical response.
I don't play on scrap but when I did, I would do a 1rax FE and then add 2 more rax to wall diagonally from my main ramp to the corner of the chasm on the road towards my natural. I'd then do a tank push through middle with turrets, bunkers and tanks on the edges. That map sucks though so I don't play it. Yeah I drop my expo at my natural on shakuras, tal'darim and terminus depending on the strat I'm doing. I don't usually do that while reaper expanding as there are some Z timings that can take it out but while 2 or 1 rax feing, it's safe.
The guide is 19 pages when I post it in to MS word so if you like staring at a clusterfuck of words, more power to you. Can't please everyone, I 'spose.
|
Updated a lot of stuff today, check out the main post.
|
Epic guide is epic. I actually feel like I know what I'm doing now, as opposed to simply randomly tank/marine pushing (and usually dying)
|
Just wanted to say thanks doc, my tvz has been way better since reading this guide. I can now win some games against zerg as to before when i almost lost all my games against z.
|
Thanks Doc, this is a great guide. I'm a high Gold player, and my TvZ went from basically unwinnable to now being probably my best matchup. I've been doing the 12/14 rax into stim/tank build. The 2-rax opening is awesome against an early hatch, in fact I've had a couple of games where it's either gg after the marine push, or I take out the natural. I still have trouble with mutas, but it's getting better. Now when the mutas go into my base, instead of running around like an idiot, I just attack an expansion with my MMT army. Go ahead, I'll trade my SCV's for your base
|
On July 13 2011 14:32 Tuplex wrote:Thanks Doc, this is a great guide. I'm a high Gold player, and my TvZ went from basically unwinnable to now being probably my best matchup. I've been doing the 12/14 rax into stim/tank build. The 2-rax opening is awesome against an early hatch, in fact I've had a couple of games where it's either gg after the marine push, or I take out the natural. I still have trouble with mutas, but it's getting better. Now when the mutas go into my base, instead of running around like an idiot, I just attack an expansion with my MMT army. Go ahead, I'll trade my SCV's for your base 
thats actualy not a good idea, you dont want to go into a bse race against mutas, ever.....
|
Hello The.Doctor
"If zerg goes 14/15 hatch Your SCV scouts gas and drones pulling out after 100 gas (DRG v sCfOu style). Z is going to get speed and hatch. They'll have a weaker mineral income because of this."
my question is why would they have weaker income if they pull out of gas and mine minerals with 3 more drones? And they get speed and a 3rd hatch? I do not understand these.
|
On July 13 2011 18:11 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 14:32 Tuplex wrote:Thanks Doc, this is a great guide. I'm a high Gold player, and my TvZ went from basically unwinnable to now being probably my best matchup. I've been doing the 12/14 rax into stim/tank build. The 2-rax opening is awesome against an early hatch, in fact I've had a couple of games where it's either gg after the marine push, or I take out the natural. I still have trouble with mutas, but it's getting better. Now when the mutas go into my base, instead of running around like an idiot, I just attack an expansion with my MMT army. Go ahead, I'll trade my SCV's for your base  thats actualy not a good idea, you dont want to go into a bse race against mutas, ever.....
Yeah obviously the BEST thing to do, what I need to work on, is to scout better and be prepared for mutas before they become a problem. But in those occasions where I am not prepared, this has worked out better for me. Instead of chasing mutas back and forth between my bases, I just go attack with my main army, where most of my marines already are, and most of the time he brings the mutas over so I can deal with them. Of course if he has a lot of banelings too, then I'm screwed, but most of the time that's not the case since he just spent a lot of resources on mutas.
I just hate chasing a pack of mutas all over the place and losing control of the game. That's the other reason I like to attack, it allows me to keep the initiative. While he's dealing with my attack I can get turrets up or start some thors...
EDIT: I'm only Gold level so take this with a grain of salt, I'm not saying this is a good high-level tactic.
|
Glorious Guide dude. Now for the real challange, getting a GG from a zerg player :/ + Show Spoiler +Also lol@ ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2251.jpg) This guy calling you terrible after both your games rofl :D
|
I was wondering if you stream? Would be awesome if you did!
|
On July 14 2011 11:40 Hypemeup wrote:Glorious Guide dude. Now for the real challange, getting a GG from a zerg player :/ + Show Spoiler +Also lol@ ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2251.jpg) This guy calling you terrible after both your games rofl :D
HAHAHAHAHA
On July 14 2011 13:42 TheWarbler wrote: I was wondering if you stream? Would be awesome if you did!
added link in conclusion
|
Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den.
Does nobody see anything wrong with this? I'm a very sad Zerg ;_;. Isn't that kind of like saying, 'Generally there isn't really any way a zerg can win, so don't bother working out what they're trying to do until they get greater spire or ultra den.
|
you sir have given me a very good reason to ladder again.
I use to use every build you mentioned in the op with no success. After reading your guide i now realise why. Thanks a shit load. I love solid gameplay like this. I got sick of not having a decent style vs that wasnt gimmicky. now its just to learn a bit of patience with tank micro and to learn from your replays. Just reading what you had to say about the matchup made me realise a lot of my mistakes. I can finally move forward 
if i knew you in person id let you have my sister lol.
Cant wait to get home!
|
|
Extremely thorough guide that can even help masters improve, thanks alot.
|
This is amazing. I'm a high diamond Zerg switching to Terran, and while my ZvP is getting fairly competent, this is going to really really boost my TvZ. THANKS A BUNCH, DOOD.
|
Thanks for this awesome guide!
|
On July 14 2011 16:40 HughJorgen wrote:Show nested quote +Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. Does nobody see anything wrong with this? I'm a very sad Zerg ;_;. Isn't that kind of like saying, 'Generally there isn't really any way a zerg can win, so don't bother working out what they're trying to do until they get greater spire or ultra den.
I think you should probably try to look at WHY he feels that way. The reason is that he is using a decision making process that should lead him to having either blue flame hellions, tanks with siege, and/or bunkers when the logical attacks of zerg would hit and he uses scouting clues besides scouting to deduce that these things are coming. Let me break it down to show why he said all that...
Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it.
Until this timing of 10 minutes, the options Zerg has are usually clearly readable via scouting of their gas timing and marine pressure / reaper pressure. Your choice of transition, if done correctly, will be solid vs the range of possibilities that are open to him with this information in mind.
After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den.
After that phase of the game, the Zerg tech switches are very scarey if not scouted and you need to know, via scans even if required, what is coming and when it is coming.
Its the coach/teacher instinct in me that replies to your post, it seemed to be a saying that you simply saw zerg as having no way to win and that terran should never fear a zerg. This guide doesn't show or teach how to bring the game to that state. This guide is more like an example decision making tree with builds and timings included as well as planed out phases of the game.
To be very honest, it is showcasing just a few of the ways you can use marine tank medivak. Like most "standard plays" it has so many uses that it becomes the responsibility of the player to develop attack and defense timings and tactics that react properly to the game.
Don't read a thread like this and come to the conclusion that zerg can't win, you should read something like this and realize that better a terran player gets the more he has to rely on very sound decision making, scouting, control, macro, and multitasking.
Your reaction to this guide is what I would normally expect to see in a [g] thread to a solid all in!

REJOICE at terran's playing like this because it will either allow you to win through the fact that you are a better player or it will challenge you to expand your skills in all areas of play because the terran will be using the full gambit of RTS options to fight you.
Question Doc,
Have you encountered the zerg transition of late gas into 2 gas baneling bust? It hits around 8 minutes with many banes and lings and allows the zerg to transition easily into a mid game (i.e. not all in). I ask because it would seem to hit a hole in your decision making as the very late first gas would lead you into your "korean transition" and that build happens to leave you with marines, no stim (at the time the attack hits), bunker(s), and sim city to hold something a good sized attack.
The only way I have found to react to this in time is to have your marines on the map long enough to deny him the ability to scout the build I am going for and to control the location of his army. This isn't always possible (or so I feel), especially on maps like shattered temple where an ovi can hide and scout your build very easily. I guess a secondary question would be do you find your korean transition to be weak if scouted well before speed is done? I have always felt that and is why I had shy'd away from nada's build.
It hits with 10 banes and 30 lings at 8:20. He doesn't take his first gas till around 5 minutes. For what it is worth, he is a 1700 masters zerg.
|
This guide is so so good. I can't say enough good things about it, I feel like I know what I'm doing in this mu now. The stuff about what zerg is doing and midgame transitions are excellent. I feel like I'm finally being challenged on a macro/micro/decisions level and not a random not enough game knowledge one (if that makes any sense). Please keep updating it! (or simply continuing to add replays)
|
On July 15 2011 15:07 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 16:40 HughJorgen wrote:Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. Does nobody see anything wrong with this? I'm a very sad Zerg ;_;. Isn't that kind of like saying, 'Generally there isn't really any way a zerg can win, so don't bother working out what they're trying to do until they get greater spire or ultra den. I think you should probably try to look at WHY he feels that way. The reason is that he is using a decision making process that should lead him to having either blue flame hellions, tanks with siege, and/or bunkers when the logical attacks of zerg would hit and he uses scouting clues besides scouting to deduce that these things are coming. Let me break it down to show why he said all that... Show nested quote +Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. Until this timing of 10 minutes, the options Zerg has are usually clearly readable via scouting of their gas timing and marine pressure / reaper pressure. Your choice of transition, if done correctly, will be solid vs the range of possibilities that are open to him with this information in mind. Show nested quote +After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. After that phase of the game, the Zerg tech switches are very scarey if not scouted and you need to know, via scans even if required, what is coming and when it is coming. Its the coach/teacher instinct in me that replies to your post, it seemed to be a saying that you simply saw zerg as having no way to win and that terran should never fear a zerg. This guide doesn't show or teach how to bring the game to that state. This guide is more like an example decision making tree with builds and timings included as well as planed out phases of the game. To be very honest, it is showcasing just a few of the ways you can use marine tank medivak. Like most "standard plays" it has so many uses that it becomes the responsibility of the player to develop attack and defense timings and tactics that react properly to the game. Don't read a thread like this and come to the conclusion that zerg can't win, you should read something like this and realize that better a terran player gets the more he has to rely on very sound decision making, scouting, control, macro, and multitasking. Your reaction to this guide is what I would normally expect to see in a [g] thread to a solid all in!  REJOICE at terran's playing like this because it will either allow you to win through the fact that you are a better player or it will challenge you to expand your skills in all areas of play because the terran will be using the full gambit of RTS options to fight you. Question Doc, Have you encountered the zerg transition of late gas into 2 gas baneling bust? It hits around 8 minutes with many banes and lings and allows the zerg to transition easily into a mid game (i.e. not all in). I ask because it would seem to hit a hole in your decision making as the very late first gas would lead you into your "korean transition" and that build happens to leave you with marines, no stim (at the time the attack hits), bunker(s), and sim city to hold something a good sized attack. The only way I have found to react to this in time is to have your marines on the map long enough to deny him the ability to scout the build I am going for and to control the location of his army. This isn't always possible (or so I feel), especially on maps like shattered temple where an ovi can hide and scout your build very easily. I guess a secondary question would be do you find your korean transition to be weak if scouted well before speed is done? I have always felt that and is why I had shy'd away from nada's build. It hits with 10 banes and 30 lings at 8:20. He doesn't take his first gas till around 5 minutes. For what it is worth, he is a 1700 masters zerg.
Is this somewhat what you're talking about?
Basically if he comes out with only a few banelings, I focus them down. When he has a lot, I just fall back. If he tries to get too ahead with lings, I just shoot the lings down.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221329.jpg)
This game was kinda sloppy after the initial part because I accidentally lifted my rax with stim as it was finishing. I show some good focus firing and taking position and falling back when necessary.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221330.jpg)
This game the Z does VERY late baneling pressure but the same thing holds. You just run away and engage lings when they're far away from banes. BTW watch the entire game if you want to see a top master Z get absolutely dismantled. It gave me a good lol. This was for a tournament and he started saying he was going to report me to TL for cheating. I guess I'm reporting myself with this replay? haha
|
On July 12 2011 12:00 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 07:44 saaaa wrote:Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On: Larger maps
Good Against: Delayed gas builds Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is: Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) @150 minerals 3rd rax @75 minerals refinery @150 minerals 4th rax @75 minerals 2nd gas @150 minerals 2nd OC @100% 3rd rax tech lab @100% tech lab start stim Cut marine production a bit to add @125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons. @150/100 factory @75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals: The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss. First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc  Now my question(s): I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed. He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it? Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play? And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too. I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well. best regards, I just rewatched NaDa v Coca and NaDa did it a bit different from what I wrote actually. He goes 4rax before double gas where I go rax gas rax gas. I think my way times out just fine though as when your 3rd rax finishes, you have just enough gas for a tech lab and then stim when your tech lab finishes. I've heard of Bomber's way, haven't tried it yet but I'll give test that way out as well. Also, about getting additional reactors, I don't see why he would do that as I don't see how it would affect his timings and macro. Maybe he has a gas surplus or is powering? IDK, I'll have to re-look at it. I think a medivac first is better than viking. A medivac with marines can pick off stray overlords almost as well as a viking. You also have the potential to drop in the Z main (which you should do first). If, with that drop, I see Z isn't getting mutas, I add a viking after that to pick off stray ovies. If you go viking first, your chances of doing drop damage with a medivac after a viking is greatly reduced. Thus, get the best of both worlds, make a medivac first.
Hi doc,
do you test it already?
Today i will test it on my own and write down the timings for marines and tanks exactly in numbers compared to the NaDa build.
I think it it way better do the 2 gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. This allows to start 2 techlabs on the 2 "new" baracks and start stim, combat and +1 attack immediately. 
I'm very interested in what do you think 
best regards,
|
Great guide man! I really enjoy the detailed analysis of Terran and Zerg openingss. I have bookmarked this for further use. Much kudos.
|
Nice thread! I look forward to looking over it in detail tonight and watching the reps. Thanks for the effort, I look foward to seeing it all!
|
On July 15 2011 21:26 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 12:00 The.Doctor wrote:On July 12 2011 07:44 saaaa wrote:Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On: Larger maps
Good Against: Delayed gas builds Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is: Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC 24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC) @150 minerals 3rd rax @75 minerals refinery @150 minerals 4th rax @75 minerals 2nd gas @150 minerals 2nd OC @100% 3rd rax tech lab @100% tech lab start stim Cut marine production a bit to add @125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons. @150/100 factory @75 minerals refinery @100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas @100% factory start tank @100% stim, start combat @100% starport, make medivac @100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor @2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals: The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss. First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc  Now my question(s): I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed. He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it? Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play? And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too. I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well. best regards, I just rewatched NaDa v Coca and NaDa did it a bit different from what I wrote actually. He goes 4rax before double gas where I go rax gas rax gas. I think my way times out just fine though as when your 3rd rax finishes, you have just enough gas for a tech lab and then stim when your tech lab finishes. I've heard of Bomber's way, haven't tried it yet but I'll give test that way out as well. Also, about getting additional reactors, I don't see why he would do that as I don't see how it would affect his timings and macro. Maybe he has a gas surplus or is powering? IDK, I'll have to re-look at it. I think a medivac first is better than viking. A medivac with marines can pick off stray overlords almost as well as a viking. You also have the potential to drop in the Z main (which you should do first). If, with that drop, I see Z isn't getting mutas, I add a viking after that to pick off stray ovies. If you go viking first, your chances of doing drop damage with a medivac after a viking is greatly reduced. Thus, get the best of both worlds, make a medivac first. Hi doc, do you test it already? Today i will test it on my own and write down the timings for marines and tanks exactly in numbers compared to the NaDa build. I think it it way better do the 2 gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. This allows to start 2 techlabs on the 2 "new" baracks and start stim, combat and +1 attack immediately.  I'm very interested in what do you think  best regards,
Oh, this 4rax style is actually a pretty old build. If you add in marauders it just becomes the old 4rax push after 2rax expand. I didn't include this in the guide as I think there are better builds. I used to use it though. It's good for taking out a fast 3rd from Z as he won't be able to make enough units to take out your bio push fast enough. I used to use it around December and if anyone remembers, Mvp lost to July's baneling pressure doing this and since I really haven't seen it used.
|
but what is your advantage you get?
the number of marines or what? i think combat shield is one of the most important upgrades in TvZ.
the old build was the 4 rax 2 with reactor and 2 with techlabs to upgrade stimpack and combatshield.
Or what do you mean exactly?
|
On July 15 2011 19:35 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 15:07 vaderseven wrote:On July 14 2011 16:40 HughJorgen wrote:Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. Does nobody see anything wrong with this? I'm a very sad Zerg ;_;. Isn't that kind of like saying, 'Generally there isn't really any way a zerg can win, so don't bother working out what they're trying to do until they get greater spire or ultra den. I think you should probably try to look at WHY he feels that way. The reason is that he is using a decision making process that should lead him to having either blue flame hellions, tanks with siege, and/or bunkers when the logical attacks of zerg would hit and he uses scouting clues besides scouting to deduce that these things are coming. Let me break it down to show why he said all that... Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. Until this timing of 10 minutes, the options Zerg has are usually clearly readable via scouting of their gas timing and marine pressure / reaper pressure. Your choice of transition, if done correctly, will be solid vs the range of possibilities that are open to him with this information in mind. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. After that phase of the game, the Zerg tech switches are very scarey if not scouted and you need to know, via scans even if required, what is coming and when it is coming. Its the coach/teacher instinct in me that replies to your post, it seemed to be a saying that you simply saw zerg as having no way to win and that terran should never fear a zerg. This guide doesn't show or teach how to bring the game to that state. This guide is more like an example decision making tree with builds and timings included as well as planed out phases of the game. To be very honest, it is showcasing just a few of the ways you can use marine tank medivak. Like most "standard plays" it has so many uses that it becomes the responsibility of the player to develop attack and defense timings and tactics that react properly to the game. Don't read a thread like this and come to the conclusion that zerg can't win, you should read something like this and realize that better a terran player gets the more he has to rely on very sound decision making, scouting, control, macro, and multitasking. Your reaction to this guide is what I would normally expect to see in a [g] thread to a solid all in!  REJOICE at terran's playing like this because it will either allow you to win through the fact that you are a better player or it will challenge you to expand your skills in all areas of play because the terran will be using the full gambit of RTS options to fight you. Question Doc, Have you encountered the zerg transition of late gas into 2 gas baneling bust? It hits around 8 minutes with many banes and lings and allows the zerg to transition easily into a mid game (i.e. not all in). I ask because it would seem to hit a hole in your decision making as the very late first gas would lead you into your "korean transition" and that build happens to leave you with marines, no stim (at the time the attack hits), bunker(s), and sim city to hold something a good sized attack. The only way I have found to react to this in time is to have your marines on the map long enough to deny him the ability to scout the build I am going for and to control the location of his army. This isn't always possible (or so I feel), especially on maps like shattered temple where an ovi can hide and scout your build very easily. I guess a secondary question would be do you find your korean transition to be weak if scouted well before speed is done? I have always felt that and is why I had shy'd away from nada's build. It hits with 10 banes and 30 lings at 8:20. He doesn't take his first gas till around 5 minutes. For what it is worth, he is a 1700 masters zerg. Is this somewhat what you're talking about? Basically if he comes out with only a few banelings, I focus them down. When he has a lot, I just fall back. If he tries to get too ahead with lings, I just shoot the lings down. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221329.jpg) This game was kinda sloppy after the initial part because I accidentally lifted my rax with stim as it was finishing. I show some good focus firing and taking position and falling back when necessary. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-221330.jpg) This game the Z does VERY late baneling pressure but the same thing holds. You just run away and engage lings when they're far away from banes. BTW watch the entire game if you want to see a top master Z get absolutely dismantled. It gave me a good lol. This was for a tournament and he started saying he was going to report me to TL for cheating. I guess I'm reporting myself with this replay? haha
Ah yes! The player I am talking about has a slightly cleaner build (somehow he lost more in the 2 rax stage but had 1 more drone and a few more lings and same banes as sooch) but the idea was just that.
I had never bothered to learn Nada's build to closely because I had never considered the ability to delay his push and engage the lings while you get siege out because he lacks bling speed.
Thanks man.
|
awesome guide! gonna be watching those replays soon. i'll be sure to check out your stream as well, thanks a lot Doc!
|
Well written guide. I am inclined to try the Korean transition in the platinum league. It seems awesome and I liked how it went in the replays, but how would you defend against a baneling bust (or is it viable against all-ins to begin with)?
Thank you very much for the guide!
|
On July 18 2011 01:52 ShnAndrei wrote: Well written guide. I am inclined to try the Korean transition in the platinum league. It seems awesome and I liked how it went in the replays, but how would you defend against a baneling bust (or is it viable against all-ins to begin with)?
Thank you very much for the guide!
Re-read this page and you will find that I asked about bane pressure and Doc posted some replays.
If you mean 1 base bane bust, you just need to scout it and make a thick wall which is easy if you are 2 raxing.
|
What do you do if you're 2raxing but see that the zerg has gone gas-pool first? Do you try to bunker push your way into the enemy's main, or do you just fall back and give up on the push?
|
On July 07 2011 18:34 The.Doctor wrote: If they go Gas Pool:
1. Your SCV scouts no more drones mining gas after 100 and the spawning pool is shaking. Zerg expands. Zerg is just getting some speedlings to stop any marine pressure. You want to pressure for a bit but be back in your base by 5:00 but give yourself time to be back in your base as it takes long to get back to your main if you're pressuring. I usually fall back around 4:30. Any blue flame play after this is really, really good.
2. Your SCV scouts drones mining after 100 gas and spawning pool isn't twitching. Zerg doesn't expand. Make CC, 2 bunkers at ramp and another rax. Stop his all in and win doing pretty much anything.
Hatch pool and pool hatch follow the same guideline above.
Straight from the opening part of the guide.
Combine that with his Blue Flame transition, which he lists as good vs Speedling Expand, the other option from gas pool or pool gas builds, and you have a game plan.
Seeing as the guide is about a macro style of TvZ I would say that the 2 rax openings are not intended to out right win the game. Since he has gas very early in a gas-pool first build he will have speed, banes, or roaches (or 1 base lair?) very quickly and you will have marines. That is not a good fight for you. You do, however, have a faster expansion coming up and the ability to defend it.
|
On July 18 2011 08:43 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 01:52 ShnAndrei wrote: Well written guide. I am inclined to try the Korean transition in the platinum league. It seems awesome and I liked how it went in the replays, but how would you defend against a baneling bust (or is it viable against all-ins to begin with)?
Thank you very much for the guide! Re-read this page and you will find that I asked about bane pressure and Doc posted some replays. If you mean 1 base bane bust, you just need to scout it and make a thick wall which is easy if you are 2 raxing.
yep
On July 18 2011 15:18 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 18:34 The.Doctor wrote: If they go Gas Pool:
1. Your SCV scouts no more drones mining gas after 100 and the spawning pool is shaking. Zerg expands. Zerg is just getting some speedlings to stop any marine pressure. You want to pressure for a bit but be back in your base by 5:00 but give yourself time to be back in your base as it takes long to get back to your main if you're pressuring. I usually fall back around 4:30. Any blue flame play after this is really, really good.
2. Your SCV scouts drones mining after 100 gas and spawning pool isn't twitching. Zerg doesn't expand. Make CC, 2 bunkers at ramp and another rax. Stop his all in and win doing pretty much anything.
Hatch pool and pool hatch follow the same guideline above. Straight from the opening part of the guide. Combine that with his Blue Flame transition, which he lists as good vs Speedling Expand, the other option from gas pool or pool gas builds, and you have a game plan. Seeing as the guide is about a macro style of TvZ I would say that the 2 rax openings are not intended to out right win the game. Since he has gas very early in a gas-pool first build he will have speed, banes, or roaches (or 1 base lair?) very quickly and you will have marines. That is not a good fight for you. You do, however, have a faster expansion coming up and the ability to defend it.
yep
|
Just wanted to post saying that I got my new PC parts today. Got my i5 2500k and 8gb of ram. I've gotten the i5 to 4.2 and don't really plan on ocing it much more, it gets hot in Toronto.
On Wednesdayish I'm going to be getting cable internet as well, upping my upload rate from 0.6mb to 1mb (hopefully). Thus, I'm going to be streaming a LOT more often.
It was hell trying to stream with my old specs
|
Germany1780 Posts
|
Doc, I really enjoyed the strat guide. One problem I am having though is zergs seem to be responding to it so much better as of late. I loved the reaper into blue flame hellion opening, but ever since Puma did it at NASL, every Zerg played responds to it perfectly. Basically roach warren as soon as they see the factory tech lab swap
|
Man I hate to answer questions in someone else's thread so Imma just point out he mentions roaches in the notes on that opening and he has a section later on about the mid game roach heavy roach/bling/ling style.
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
The.Doctor, can you post more replays with transitions - iam interested in BF transition when zerg go for roaches - how to use hellions in this case. Also i am interested in more mass muta play replays + more macro games with comments like - how we can end game with zerg if we survived to macro?
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
Also, hope to see more information about choosing transition according to our scouting and early game preasure results. I mean, when it will be better to use BF transition instead of Korean, or StimTank push instead of Drop Play.
|
Great guide Doc, love the content and effort put into this and I'll definitely benefit from your tips 
Will check out your stream as your understanding of the game seems solid :D. And I would LOVE to see this same kind of guide/tips for TvP when you figure that shit out (by far my worst match-up as well t.t)
|
TheDoc, I see you added a section for when to make ghosts but seriously.. I always have trouble playing TvZ late game because of mass infestors (13+ around 16-17 minutes). 13+ infestors can pretty much hold on to any push imo... What do you do against that? I know you make ghosts and emp but usually I see that ghosts can't even walk toward the infestors to emp because of the lings.
|
On July 20 2011 21:00 yaRus wrote: The.Doctor, can you post more replays with transitions - iam interested in BF transition when zerg go for roaches - how to use hellions in this case. Also i am interested in more mass muta play replays + more macro games with comments like - how we can end game with zerg if we survived to macro?
Ok.
On July 20 2011 21:04 yaRus wrote: Also, hope to see more information about choosing transition according to our scouting and early game preasure results. I mean, when it will be better to use BF transition instead of Korean, or StimTank push instead of Drop Play.
I wrote out when a certain build is good and when it's bad in the guide...
On July 20 2011 22:31 Tonem wrote:Great guide Doc, love the content and effort put into this and I'll definitely benefit from your tips  Will check out your stream as your understanding of the game seems solid :D. And I would LOVE to see this same kind of guide/tips for TvP when you figure that shit out (by far my worst match-up as well t.t)
My TvP is quite good now, more so focusing on TvT now but I will see what I can do about a TvP guide. Maybe get someone to help me as the TvZ guide took a LONG time.
On July 20 2011 22:32 JiSu wrote: TheDoc, I see you added a section for when to make ghosts but seriously.. I always have trouble playing TvZ late game because of mass infestors (13+ around 16-17 minutes). 13+ infestors can pretty much hold on to any push imo... What do you do against that? I know you make ghosts and emp but usually I see that ghosts can't even walk toward the infestors to emp because of the lings.
If they go infestor first, you should have the economic advantage 100% of the time. Delay their 3rd, then drop everywhere while teching to ghosts. Make sure you focus fire with tanks. Use cloak with ghosts if you need to and see an opportunity (no overseers). EMP has more range than fungal. It becomes micro wars again, ghost v templar style. Unfortunately, our spells don't actually kill them in both TvP and TvZ so we kinda have the disadvantage in that regard but make up for it with range. Scan whenever you think a big battle is going to go on to give yourself better vision. Focus fire with tanks and emp with ghosts. Work on microing that scenario. Get a practice partner, go to unit test map duo or just do practice games.
|
Hi The.Doctor, I read all your guide and it seems like it will improve my TvZ a lot more since I am extremely horrible at it and I just started to switch race to Terran. Nice guide! ^.^ And I have a question for the hotkeys : do you have all the production buildings on one hotkey? Thanks!!
|
Thank you so much for this. I've been having trouble with TvZ. I like the 2 rax opening as it pressures zerg into making spines or zerglings. its also an easy transition into mech play
|
On July 22 2011 09:32 Keos wrote: Hi The.Doctor, I read all your guide and it seems like it will improve my TvZ a lot more since I am extremely horrible at it and I just started to switch race to Terran. Nice guide! ^.^ And I have a question for the hotkeys : do you have all the production buildings on one hotkey? Thanks!!
I personally do and I find it easier.
|
T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Wow, this is such a good guide. I think I understand more about terran's mentality after reading this.
BTW, there's also a op bunker rush location in xelnaga.
|
On July 22 2011 12:14 T.O.P. wrote: Wow, this is such a good guide. I think I understand more about terran's mentality after reading this.
BTW, there's also a op bunker rush location in xelnaga.
Yeah I'm gonna add that spot too.
|
|
This guide is not getting enough credit.
It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english.
Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory.
I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?).
I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles.
|
This is a fantastic guide. I think it will probably take more than a year for all the information you've put out there to sink in. I just recently started winning against mass infestor based on what you've written here.
|
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this amazing guide, and congrats on beating ret the other day on ladder!
|
On July 25 2011 14:32 vaderseven wrote: This guide is not getting enough credit.
It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english.
Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory.
I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?).
I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles.
if you post a replay I'd be happy to take a look, and I'm sure Doctor would too. I absolutely love cross positions against Zerg lately which is weird because I used to call it auto-loss, but all the drops and hellion harrassing are a blast. Personally I tend to avoid tanks in these positions but you can definitely use drops to pull his army back so you can establish a siege contain.
Drops are finnicky. There is a gigantic difference between good drops and bad drops. Maybe you weren't clearing ovies, which he really can't stop you from doing if he went infestors and thus should have no warning when you hit him. Maybe you weren't using multi-pronged drops to force him to multi-task or maybe he was just much better at multi-tasking. Maybe you weren't targeting the right things during the drops, or you stayed too long and sacrificed everything when you should have picked up and ran. Sometimes it's better to snipe tech, kill drones, or just distract long enough for another drop or frontal assault to do the real damage. Either way, if he's constantly defending drops he's not challenging your expos (hopefully). Maybe you unloaded one at a time in his mineral line, which usually isn't the most efficient way to go. Maybe you clumped up in a ball so one fungal wrecked you. I'm just guessing, there are so many ways to improve drop play it's hard to be perfect. That's why a replay would be most useful . Man I love drops.
|
Great guide; it's taught me a lot already.
I've started learning standard TvZ myself after an extended period of MKP style marine rushing (which has been getting crushed in the past month). One question though: After a bit of harass with a couple of hellions, I typically push out at the 10 minute mark with tanks and marines to deny a third expo. If the Zerg is going infestor though, the 3rd is delayed and my army kind of sits outside of his base waiting to die. If zerg is going infestor should I not move out at all and take a 3rd base, or just do what I've been doing and take a 3rd while simultaneously moving out?
My problem could be more of a scouting issue though, since I usually don't figure out which tech route the zerg is going until I'm already sieged by his third.
|
great guide lord knows I need it
I am so bad at TvZ I probably win about 15-20% and win about 60-70% of my TvT and TvP in gold
is this normal ? playing verse Zerg has been brutal for me
|
I hope this has not been asked
Marines + medis on one hotkey, tanks on another. No exceptions.
I have this old habit of setting medivac on following my Bios (without hotkey) instead of setting them on the same hotkey (i do have tanks on another tho), do you think it is a mistake and should be changed?
|
On July 25 2011 14:32 vaderseven wrote: This guide is not getting enough credit.
It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english.
Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory.
I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?).
I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles.
Post the replay! I have a hard time dealing with infestors sometimes myself. A lot of time it has to do with me letting Z get their econ up. If you're doing any bio heavy play like the nada style, make SURE you delay the Z's 3rd base until infestors pop. Then start heavy drop play while building your tank count and taking your fast 3rd. Your 3rd should be faster than z's though. Metal cross positions is really tough in general though and now, it's gone. The nada style would lead in to a longer game but if you like doing tank contains and pushes then by all means, do what works for you. I'm still experimenting with other things as I find the infestor style really volatile, weird and played way differently by different players. Some choose to use burrowed infestors, some defensively, some all around the map dropping infested terrans.
On July 26 2011 14:08 HighQuality wrote: Great guide; it's taught me a lot already.
I've started learning standard TvZ myself after an extended period of MKP style marine rushing (which has been getting crushed in the past month). One question though: After a bit of harass with a couple of hellions, I typically push out at the 10 minute mark with tanks and marines to deny a third expo. If the Zerg is going infestor though, the 3rd is delayed and my army kind of sits outside of his base waiting to die. If zerg is going infestor should I not move out at all and take a 3rd base, or just do what I've been doing and take a 3rd while simultaneously moving out?
My problem could be more of a scouting issue though, since I usually don't figure out which tech route the zerg is going until I'm already sieged by his third.
When you do your push, check for Z's 3rd. If it's there, take it out, which you should be able to if he's going infestors as they won't be out by then. Fall back and take yours. If Z doesn't have 3rd, don't just sit around their front with your army, they will build up a huge army the longer you wait. Fall back.
On July 27 2011 03:29 ShooTouts wrote: great guide lord knows I need it
I am so bad at TvZ I probably win about 15-20% and win about 60-70% of my TvT and TvP in gold
is this normal ? playing verse Zerg has been brutal for me
Everyone has their shitty matchup. Mine used to be TvP, now it's good and my TvT is starting to suffer.
On July 27 2011 09:55 doomscythe wrote:I hope this has not been asked I have this old habit of setting medivac on following my Bios (without hotkey) instead of setting them on the same hotkey (i do have tanks on another tho), do you think it is a mistake and should be changed?
Bad, if the unit that your medivac is following dies, the medivacs stop following and just sit around.
|
Also, I'm going to be adding reactor helion guide. The reason why I haven't added it is because I truly think it is more advanced and for higher ranked players b/c it takes more APM, micro, game understanding and multitasking.
|
Thanks so much for this guide man. Zerg is the match up that has been holding me back and now incorporating 12/14 rax and accompanying transitions has helped me immensely.
|
oh fuck wrong thread.
edited.
|
Here is two examples of me trying some things to deal with the infestor play I was speaking of.
1. http://replayfu.com/r/6Lndrg
I go for a bit too strong of pressure with the 2 rax (should have let some of the marine numbers build in the waves following the first but I was trying to abuse his lack of speed) though he does make alot of defense. I would say it was not the best trade for me but it was by no means game ending or deciding. I try to add a ghost academy as I take my 3rd to allow faster ghosts.
2. http://replayfu.com/r/NNpXFq
I did a reaper expand this game and went for a lot of drop play. The drops are very much shut down and I do not put any pressure on his 3rd really. The game is clearly over as I try to take my 4th and he gets a good hit on my 3rd.
There was several other games vs Bubba but I can't find them. I did not include any of the games were I went for a siege contain as I understand that style vs this but I don't feel like I can always prepare to do that style by the time I have confirmed this build. I want a more passive management style that works. I know that my game plan appears either disorganized or poorly optimized but that is because I really cant decide on when, timing window wise, I should be focusing on aggression and expanding vs turtling and/or harassing.
With the tips people have posted so far in the thread in regards to my post i feel like I should probably look at devising a timing that punishes his 3rd but a quick glance at the replays doesn't make that the obvious answer.
I am very curious as to what you guys have input wise. Do keep in mind that Bubba is one of those players that really will punish any mistake (as you can see in the replays any spotted movement on the minimap is taken in and reacted to) so I would love to devise a plan that is able to play vs that kind of style.
His style is to fast expand with fairly late gas into double evo chambers and speed (and often multiputle queens). He takes a very fast 3rd due to the map being favorable to him defending it. He transitions to infestor tech as he does this and uses infestor/ling/upgrades to safely get 1-2 more bases as he transitions into hive and ultra/ling.
I have seen many similar styles on the ladder but it has never actually been done to me in an elegant fashion. He uses his simple tools so correctly at each of the timings and I just am lacking the insight to see the exact weaknesses vs my game plan's strengths.
|
Is the OP bunker rush thing worth it? I can never get my bunker to more than 30 % hp before lings pop. I noticed it could be done on the new nerazim crypts as well - worth trying? Or is it solely for close pos?
|
Doctor: Could you go over your mindset when performing a rine/tank push?
Such as: *Where do you position your tanks? *When do you siege your tanks? At the creep's edge? *How do you forward scout in attempt to find the Ling horde? *How many tanks do you need?
I'm a mid Masters myself but I am having *huge* issues TvZ. It isn't a build nor macro issue I just need to shore up how to effectively attack a Zerg.
|
On July 27 2011 15:27 vaderseven wrote:Here is two examples of me trying some things to deal with the infestor play I was speaking of. 1. http://replayfu.com/r/6LndrgI go for a bit too strong of pressure with the 2 rax (should have let some of the marine numbers build in the waves following the first but I was trying to abuse his lack of speed) though he does make alot of defense. I would say it was not the best trade for me but it was by no means game ending or deciding. I try to add a ghost academy as I take my 3rd to allow faster ghosts. 2. http://replayfu.com/r/NNpXFqI did a reaper expand this game and went for a lot of drop play. The drops are very much shut down and I do not put any pressure on his 3rd really. The game is clearly over as I try to take my 4th and he gets a good hit on my 3rd. There was several other games vs Bubba but I can't find them. I did not include any of the games were I went for a siege contain as I understand that style vs this but I don't feel like I can always prepare to do that style by the time I have confirmed this build. I want a more passive management style that works. I know that my game plan appears either disorganized or poorly optimized but that is because I really cant decide on when, timing window wise, I should be focusing on aggression and expanding vs turtling and/or harassing. With the tips people have posted so far in the thread in regards to my post i feel like I should probably look at devising a timing that punishes his 3rd but a quick glance at the replays doesn't make that the obvious answer. I am very curious as to what you guys have input wise. Do keep in mind that Bubba is one of those players that really will punish any mistake (as you can see in the replays any spotted movement on the minimap is taken in and reacted to) so I would love to devise a plan that is able to play vs that kind of style. His style is to fast expand with fairly late gas into double evo chambers and speed (and often multiputle queens). He takes a very fast 3rd due to the map being favorable to him defending it. He transitions to infestor tech as he does this and uses infestor/ling/upgrades to safely get 1-2 more bases as he transitions into hive and ultra/ling. I have seen many similar styles on the ladder but it has never actually been done to me in an elegant fashion. He uses his simple tools so correctly at each of the timings and I just am lacking the insight to see the exact weaknesses vs my game plan's strengths.
Quick glance at first replay, your early game pressure went really poorly but you already know that so I'm gonna skip on to the later parts.
If you're doing the bio heavy transition, the point is to STAY on the map preventing creep spread and preventing too early expansions and keeping map control. You know how BF helions are used to deny creep in certain builds, with this build, marines serve that purpose. If he's going infestors you CAN'T let him get his 3rd up without any pressure.
+1 before factory btw.
In that space above your main base, there are a million overlords spotting your drops coming and you know he's going infestors, get a viking or two and take them ALL out. Dropping through overlord vision might work against bad players but against better players it won't.
You also fell way behind on upgrades.
If he has all his units defending drops, don't be scared to push out on the map, clear towers and creep and fall back.
That should help a lot, from a quick glance.
2nd game, don't just sack your reaper, take the tower and keep hopping up and down when zerglings come, they shouldn't be able to pick it off. Don't delay on sending out your BF helions and pay attention to the helions. Losing them AND the reaper gives map control back to a Z without Z having to go a different tech route to get it (i.e. roaches).
When I see a fast third like he did, I personally do a 3 tank push with marines afterwords with the helions marines and tanks and always take it out. You waited far too long to push and then just stayed camped up in your base when you needed to be aggressive, again letting Z get their 3rd fast while going infestors, didn't watch the rest afterwards. Creep was everywhere. Metal cross positions shitty in general though.
|
Nice guide. Anything like this for the other match-ups?
|
Whenever i go marine/tank the the zerg just kills my tanks with banelings and the zergling surrond + the banelings just kill all my marines, how do i avoid this?
|
Wow this is such an amazing guide, has helped me so much! Thank you for the post, and I love your organization
|
On July 29 2011 08:27 TheQforce wrote: Whenever i go marine/tank the the zerg just kills my tanks with banelings and the zergling surrond + the banelings just kill all my marines, how do i avoid this?
If the Zerg overwhelms you in that way and just has so much ling-baneling that you can't really stop him, then you're doing something completely different wrong, be it poor macro, or letting zerg build up a massive economy without harassing. Basically, if that happens, then it means that you're probably behind anyway.
|
To defend against mutalisk harass it can help to keep your turrets spread out a little so that you reduce the glaive damage from larger groups. Also you can put a depot or other building in an adjacent space to the turrent and that building will soak up all the first bounce damage.
|
Mindblowingly fantastic guide. You deserve a MVP poster status for this.
That said, small black mark for your implied BM to the Emperor > He proxies because he is good enough to make them stable - and he does them consistently, so doesn't get massive surprise value out of them, just pressure, and 50% of the time tempts his opponents into all-ins he has specifically prepared for.
Question: Once a Z commits to BLs, do you stay with ghost pack or squeeze out a few vikings? Do you ever get a large pack of vikings? My style has been to avoid Viks altogether, but I'd love your opinion.
|
On July 31 2011 00:14 DaemonX wrote:Mindblowingly fantastic guide. You deserve a MVP poster status for this. That said, small black mark for your implied BM to the Emperor >  He proxies because he is good enough to make them stable - and he does them consistently, so doesn't get massive surprise value out of them, just pressure, and 50% of the time tempts his opponents into all-ins he has specifically prepared for. Question: Once a Z commits to BLs, do you stay with ghost pack or squeeze out a few vikings? Do you ever get a large pack of vikings? My style has been to avoid Viks altogether, but I'd love your opinion.
Woah woah by no means was I BMing boxer. He's one of the reasons I play Terran. I simply meant to show as an example of how you can proxy barracks and who does it. I meant for players not to do it on ladder though as straight up practice might be better as boxer often does the proxy rax in a calculated manner eg. Him VS idra in nasl. He knows idra plays macro and is less likely to counter cheese and has a weaker early game. I guess I should edit it o clarify though.
I personally get both ghosts AND Vikings. I find just Vikings is bad because of fungals and just ghosts is very volatile so I use both. I'm going to up 2 more vods playing against late game z and dealing with this when I get home.
|
Definitely the best TvZ guide on TL. Much thanks!
I'm a little surprised you relegate the gas first reactor hellions for more one-off situations. I've found that it is: -extremely safe, even for fast roaches after FE (not sure if it still works on one base... but i can't remember the last time someone has done that to me), for which you definitely have time for at least one bunker and at least 1 marauder. -map control -larva/drone harass (not many seem to expect the larva harass if the zerg is relying purely on queen ramp blocking for the earliest stages of defense Is there a particular opening you feel this is very weak to? Or are zergs at your level just especially competent at defending relative to the rax openers you've mentioned?
You don't really emphasize upgrades that much in this guide, but that could be because upgrading hard is just understood. That said, I find that vZ I'm double upgrading earlier and with higher priority relative to vP and vT.
|
It might be worth noting that although Metalopolis is no longer in the pool, Your bunker tip is also possible on these Ladder maps.
Typhon Peaks (4) Nerazim Crypt (4) Searing Crater (4) Antiga Shipyard (4) ( 11 and 5 O'clock positions.)
|
AMAZING post! I have been completely lost in the world of TvZ in the past couple of months. Having this as a reference will do wonders to the understanding of the matchup.
|
Hey taking the time to put together this post. For a while I've been stuck in a rut similar to yours except for that my weakness has been zerg rather than protoss. I feel like reading this post has done a lot to help my understanding of TvZ and hopefully I will now be able to improve it well beyond what I thought was possible before. Good luck getting into GM this season With the help of this guide I hope to get there as well.
|
I second my esteemed colleagues suggestions.
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy?
|
On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote: TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy?
It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field.
|
On August 02 2011 10:43 DocM wrote: I second my esteemed colleagues suggestions.
Yes, quite.
|
Russian Federation68 Posts
On August 02 2011 19:17 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote: TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy? It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field.
And can you provide your thougts about this build in general? How we can open and be equal on zergs economy? What kind of preasure we can/should apply depending on our scouting?
|
great guide man, very useful. can you do one for TvP also? :D
|
im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
cool guide anyway can u give more in depth guide like this with other match up ? plat player stumbling here
|
On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote: im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors.
At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech.
|
On August 03 2011 16:45 tubs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote: im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors. At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech. Why it wouldnt ?
I still have tanks even with my marauders But they do take gas
|
On August 03 2011 16:45 tubs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote: im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors. At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech.
I watched doc crush a top korean zerg (#226) this morning on his stream with marine tank against hive tech (brood lord corrupter infestor ultralisk queen). He was pretty behind until the zerg switched to hive tech and he stomped it with marine/tank and a handful of vikings.
Maybe it's on his vods, if not maybe can get him to post the replay. It was a pretty insane game on tal'darim.
|
Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On August 03 2011 21:53 Tommie wrote: Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
Doc is hardly arrogant. In fact it was really generous of him to sacrifice the great amount of time it took to contribute this guide to the TL community. It's funny how you were selfish enough to read it because I'm sure you were at least curious to see if you could learn anything from it, yet you post such a worthless condescending remark instead of a grateful one.
BTW Doc, great guide and great stream! Keep up the good work dude!
|
On August 03 2011 21:53 Tommie wrote: Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
Someone wins using their own build and playstyle ----> Doc doesn't know shit. BTW MVP did nogas FE in to BF helion, MMA did reaper in to BF helion on shak v DRG but made it in to his own 'slayers style' play...what I remembered off top of head, both covered.
Alright so I want to include the slayers build because it's really strong but there's a problem. I think it's far too advanced for your average player...I have troubling pulling it off as well because it takes a LOT of APM because the exact time you need to be laying down your buildings, starting upgrades and swapping addons is when your helions and marines are in the Z base. I'm going to play around with it a bit more and see what I can do with it.
|
On August 03 2011 21:22 Vertical wrote: Why it wouldnt ?
I still have tanks even with my marauders But they do take gas
Well that's a different composition. In your original question you were asking about a marine/marauder composition and I was pointing out the weakness. Marine/marauder/tank is a whole different story. The problem with throwing in marauders is unless you are going for a specific early marine/marauder stim timing, using gas on marauders will just slow down your siege tank timing. It also means you will have less marines and will be more easily contained in your base if the zerg decides to go the muta harrass route or an aggressive infestor soft contain. That will delay your third base and cause you to waste more money on turrets.
Basically in the later stages of the game marines do way more dps than marauders and tanks will take care of anything armored (roaches, spines, etc) so that's why "standard play" skips marauders.
|
On August 03 2011 21:43 michaelhasanalias wrote: I watched doc crush a top korean zerg (#226) this morning on his stream with marine tank against hive tech (brood lord corrupter infestor ultralisk queen). He was pretty behind until the zerg switched to hive tech and he stomped it with marine/tank and a handful of vikings.
Yeap again we're talking about different compositions. I was saying marine/tank gets you pretty much through mid game until late game hive tech. At hive tech you will need to add in vikings, ghosts, etc to take care of broodlords/infestors.
|
VERY awesome guide, going to see if we can get it into the Recommended Threads!
Ty for making this man, really helped me understand the matchup =)
|
On July 31 2011 11:42 cskalias.pbe wrote: Definitely the best TvZ guide on TL. Much thanks!
I'm a little surprised you relegate the gas first reactor hellions for more one-off situations. I've found that it is: -extremely safe, even for fast roaches after FE (not sure if it still works on one base... but i can't remember the last time someone has done that to me), for which you definitely have time for at least one bunker and at least 1 marauder. -map control -larva/drone harass (not many seem to expect the larva harass if the zerg is relying purely on queen ramp blocking for the earliest stages of defense Is there a particular opening you feel this is very weak to? Or are zergs at your level just especially competent at defending relative to the rax openers you've mentioned?
You don't really emphasize upgrades that much in this guide, but that could be because upgrading hard is just understood. That said, I find that vZ I'm double upgrading earlier and with higher priority relative to vP and vT.
I've always found that if Z plays defensively and shuts down your helion pressure, you will get wrecked by fast mutas and have to play defensively for a very long time. I did talk about upgrades. They're absolutely essential to keep going constantly but the timing of when you want to start your +1 varies depending on the build you do.
On August 02 2011 19:36 yaRus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 19:17 The.Doctor wrote:On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote: TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy? It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field. And can you provide your thougts about this build in general? How we can open and be equal on zergs economy? What kind of preasure we can/should apply depending on our scouting?
I very very seldomly do any 1-1-1 play because like I said, if you don't do crippling damage to Z, you will be pretty far behind economically and pinned back once he gets mutas. I generally recommend against it. You don't need to play super safe 1-1-1 against Z because they don't have any way of killing you even if you go nogas FE. Z is the one who wants to play safe, not T in this match up. I feel that the only other choice to do damage with 1-1-1 outside of some silly all-in is to go for cloak banshee but most Z can hold it off quite well now. Also, I believe any helion in to cloak banshee play is an advanced build more reserved for players with high APM and good decision making as you're relying on a few units to get you ahead economically and keep constant map control with. In short, I'd recommend against it unless you want to change up your style in a tournament in say a bo5+ vs a Z or vs a friend.
On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote: im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
cool guide anyway can u give more in depth guide like this with other match up ? plat player stumbling here
Tanks tank better than marauders. Save gas for higher tank count and build more marines.
|
|
That MMA stuff is very fun. Thats a very precise build wow.
|
There is a bunker rush on Backwater gultch that is pretty good. You can make a bunker and a depot next to each other and wall off next to their ramp.
Ok i have another map specific trick for you. The triple bunker rush on Shakuras Plateau, You wall off the zerg from attacking your marines scv`s, and when the bunkers finish you are in range of the hatch.
|
Hi doc,
can you do a yabot build order test file to train your builds? 
this would help extremly
thx
|
ty ty ty ty ty, finly a tvz guide that isn't damn mech
|
I played another game v royalflush last night where he went ling roach in to mass infestor ling and then eventually ultras with high upgrades. I thought I played alright against it so, I'm going to up my VOD of the game and a replay. Was kinda sloppy this game though, haven't played much lately.
http://drop.sc/28149 for the replay
http://www.twitch.tv/thedoctor91/b/292960575 VOD
|
I dunno , as a Masters Random/zerg player I find that your builds seem kinda bad , vs any allin-ish play , If i for example did the fake speedling expand on Tal'Darim Alter , im not sure how you would stop it ? Maybe add a thread / spoiler for "How to stop speedling flood all-in"?
|
A simple wall + good sim city will stop any sling all in.
|
On August 19 2011 19:46 DH_Remorse wrote:I dunno , as a Masters Random/zerg player I find that your builds seem kinda bad , vs any allin-ish play , If i for example did the fake speedling expand on Tal'Darim Alter , im not sure how you would stop it ? Maybe add a thread / spoiler for "How to stop speedling flood all-in"? 
Lol but I'm not teaching one single build. I'm teaching diffferent openers and transitions and what to look for from zerg before transitioning so you can have the best counter to what they're doing.
|
This guide is definitely good but the better that I get the more I feel that straight up macro play is the best way to play, relying on good mechanics and micro vs getting tech that you wont be using throughout the game (blue flame).
|
Upon reading you, i got a better sense what to transtion to, as I usually open 12/14 rax, usual pressure, xpand at 23 or so and then usually go for the tanks.
I'm a high gold T, so I mostly suck, but still, a question came up on a situation I found myself in on playing a game just now.
So I play this game in Shakuras, crossed positions (me 11 o'clock, him 5 o'clock), where i do the usual bunker, i manage to get 2 of them up between his main and his natural and kill a lot of zerglings and even the hatch, without losing a single marine. I go up the ramp and i see two spines done and i see roaches amassing, so i get down the ramp immediatly with my 12 or so marines, salvage the bunkers and get the hell out of there, leaving an scv at his entrance to see when he gets out with his roaches, and to get a count to.
He gets out eventually and it felt all-inish.
Going back to my main, i have a factory up, without techlab, and 3 rax, one working on stim already. 2 gases are up, but i just have less than 100gas. So i have to make a decision and i put a couple of bunkers when i see about 8 roach on the middle of the map, while pumping up several marauder to help defend, as I thought I wasn't able to get enough tanks in time, and that my marines would have gotten crushed by that force.
My question is: what do you think about the decision making? Did I read it bad and had enough time to get a couple of tanks up or was it ok to get the marauder?
Thanks a lot for your time and patience!
|
I still await your TvP. pa-lease
@ the guy above me, upload the replay impossible to tell from what you described. For one, we have no idea at what point in time all this happens. Upload the replay and it will tell us alot!
|
Done, there you have the replay.
http://drop.sc/29119
Beware of it...i'm bad!
I just need some validation from other players that i'm doing ok, or not and what should i change.
|
Thank you Doc! Very good guide, i will definetely use ur guide because my TvZ sucks
|
Hello Doctor, great guide.
Just wanted to add two things for the reactors.
1) Regarding the good old marine-tank timing push, I believe that the emperor made a pretty good job with the reactors at TSL. If you analyze his play a little bit, you can see that he always gets a third rax with his first 150 minerals and adds two refineries right after that (you need to have a good number of marines so you can defend if the zerg goes for something tricky). Now, Boxer gets his tech lab immediately on this third rax for stim and then goes for two reactors on the first two raxes. After the standard three barracks, he adds the factory/tech lab for siege tanks and makes the first medivac from a naked starport. You can now pressure with the standard mix and throw down two additional reactor-barracks and take your third.
Take a look at Boxer's play on Xel'Naga Caverns and Metalopolis (he had more losses on metalopolis and his timing attack was one minute late but it's good to compare). Also, someone asked for a one rax play. Boxer does the same build on Shakuras Plateau but with one rax (he did one rax on Crevasse but he made a fast factory there). I would like your opinion on that...
I believe that with this style, you can have better waves and replenish better your army in time. I agree that mutalisks could be a problem but as you can see, the first two reactor-barracks are always landed to make a wall to the natural, thus you need less turrets at your main and you're mostly protected at your expansion from the marines and the bunker/s.
In late game marauder play can be problematic though, if the zerg player transition to ultras. All the above go for the "old school" marine-tank-medivac timing push. Obviously the metagame changed since then but they are still applicable.
2) Regarding the Korean transition, I have seen Nada but especially Bomber (I believe you saw his match vs Idra at MLG Raleigh but he does this at GSL), to add reactors and pump out marines like crazy. Especially Bomber who likes to add two additional Tech Labs instead of one, in order to get combat shield faster and also to produce two marauders simultaneously for the second wave so he can absorb damage from banelings. Then he always adds reactors. Obviously this is adding reactors later on, compared with my first comment on Boxer's BO, since with that kind of pressure, the zerg can't produce easily mutalisks because he's defending his base from your pressure.
Thanks.
|
On August 04 2011 07:05 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote: im wondering whats your view about marauders i like to put marauders into play getting them from about 1 or 2 rax i used the to tank blings so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank is it effective or just a waste of money ?
cool guide anyway can u give more in depth guide like this with other match up ? plat player stumbling here Tanks tank better than marauders. Save gas for higher tank count and build more marines. i saw bomber vs DRG earlier today in MLG and he did use Marauder in his composition and he did won the game
any thought about it ?
i kinda prefer marauder first instead of go straight to tank since marauder have better mobility
|
Mmm MVP v July g2, MVP showing the noobs how it's done. So, so sexy.
|
|
There's a good timing attack in TvZ you can do from a 2 rax bunker FE (bunkers depending on what you scout but you may need 3 to hold off a 7RR, in which case if the Zerg is one-basing and pumping roach you should abandon the timing attack altogether and go for a long macro game post-expand anyways.
It more favours maps where you can wall off your natural and prevent access to your main i.e. Nerazim Crypt, Abyssal Caverns, Backwater Gulch and to a lesser extent the huge GSL maps like Terminus, Tal'darim Altar and Crevasse.because of their rush distance.
Open 2 rax.
Expand with a bunker or two safely guarding your natural and make marines.
Make 2 extra barracks and a single refinery, move 3 scvs to the refinery.
When the expansion goes down, continue to pump marines and research Stimpack at 100 gas.
When Stimpack is near completion, push out.
The only real thing that can hold this timing push is:
- A fuckton of spine crawlers at your natural (and your main if the natural can be bypassed. This will set back the Zerg HUGELY in economy as he sacrifices the 100 mineral cost for a Spine Crawler, the 50 mineral cost of the Drone and the opportunity cost of the mining that drone could have done, or the opportunity cost of the larvae which could have been more units.
- Loads of lings and banes. Marines are at such a critical mass where a load of lings alone are not going to improve your chances.of winning. You NEED banelings to hold this off, but Marines can be microed to make Banelings less efficient.
- Roaches. Marines are considerably weak against roaches, but you'll need quite a few to hold off.
I am not exactly sure why it's a good timing but I had success with it. I think it's something to do with hitting at a time where lair tech's benefits (i.e. speedbanes, high muta numbers, infestors etc) haven't quite kicked in yet.
It's meant to hit before mutas can come out and wreck your mineral line, that's for sure.
|
|
I have switched to Protoss for reasons of my wrist hating this matchup (TvZ) and tendonitis is something that scares me so Im taking it serious.
I figured I would share this with this thread, I made it after I added a lot of elements of this guide to my play. I am a visual person so this kind of thing helps me even if I don't look at it during a match.
![[image loading]](http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1654/2raxdocchart.png)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/2raxdocchart.png/
Some of the items are not what this guide says to do and were instead my own style but those are very rare bits.
Also, thanks "TheDoctor," once I practiced and understood the transitions you outlined in this thread, as well as learned how to abuse the small things like the gas timing of the Zerg and knowing what kind of transition was best vs what, my win rate in TvZ on ladder (both KR and NA) went from 47% to just a bit over 60%.
If playing a 25 minute TvZ didn't make me unable to play for the rest of the day if he made any banelings (boxing things fast hurts yo) I would be building upon these concepts for a long time.
|
On September 10 2011 16:05 vaderseven wrote:I have switched to Protoss for reasons of my wrist hating this matchup (TvZ) and tendonitis is something that scares me so Im taking it serious. I figured I would share this with this thread, I made it after I added a lot of elements of this guide to my play. I am a visual person so this kind of thing helps me even if I don't look at it during a match. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/2raxdocchart.png/Some of the items are not what this guide says to do and were instead my own style but those are very rare bits. Also, thanks "TheDoctor," once I practiced and understood the transitions you outlined in this thread, as well as learned how to abuse the small things like the gas timing of the Zerg and knowing what kind of transition was best vs what, my win rate in TvZ on ladder (both KR and NA) went from 47% to just a bit over 60%. If playing a 25 minute TvZ didn't make me unable to play for the rest of the day if he made any banelings (boxing things fast hurts yo) I would be building upon these concepts for a long time. Surprised no one replies this post. Vaderseven made a wonderful flowchart for everyone! Great thx!
|
I love you with all my heart <3
|
can you explain or give us a demonstration on how to defend mass muta harrass, mutas can sometimes just have a terran scrambling to defend and it's really frustrating even after getting a ton of turrets. When you get a thor it seems a little inefficient to keep him in yr main at all times. what is your opinion on that?
|
thanks it is very helpful!
|
Thanks Doc for the great guide. TvZ has always been one of my weakness but it has improved quite a bit after reading this guide. This thread should be on the SC2 Recommended Lists thread.
|
So what's your opinion on making reactors with the barracks nerf? Seemingly now from only 10 seconds longer, it's become 15 seconds longer, and that sounds a bit longer and less appealing to not be without production for those 15 extra seconds. Shouldn't really make a difference for me, though, as a gold player. Just wondering if reactors are still kinda useless.
EDIT: any new replays with the new patch?
|
Love this thread, my TvZ is my worst matchup because I don't understand Marine/Tank play like I should. Very, very helpful - I'm improving!
|
Couple of questions regarding the Korean transition out of 2 rax FE.
1) Why would you get vikings if you see infestors?
2) When do you push out? I usually do reactor hellion expand then attack with 3 tanks at 10 min. Sometimes they lose their natural and sometimes they beat me straight up and proceed to win the game.
3) How do you micro against infestors? Against mutaling/bling I know to pre spread marines, poke in with a small group while leap frogging tanks into positions but this doesn't seem to work against infestors play.
4) You said after get 5 or 6 marines deny creep spread but how do I do that? If I send out 5 or 6 they will just kill my marines with speedlings.
|
On October 01 2011 14:50 positron. wrote: Couple of questions regarding the Korean transition out of 2 rax FE.
1) Why would you get vikings if you see infestors?
2) When do you push out? I usually do reactor hellion expand then attack with 3 tanks at 10 min. Sometimes they lose their natural and sometimes they beat me straight up and proceed to win the game.
3) How do you micro against infestors? Against mutaling/bling I know to pre spread marines, poke in with a small group while leap frogging tanks into positions but this doesn't seem to work against infestors play.
4) You said after get 5 or 6 marines deny creep spread but how do I do that? If I send out 5 or 6 they will just kill my marines with speedlings.
2. You really need to scout what the zerg is doing before making that 10 minute push. If you scan and see mass zergling incoming (no lair or it just started, evo chambers for upgrades, no baneling nest or roaches), then you will die if you try that attack. You should take a fast third and do a lot of drops, because mass zergling will flat out destroy any 3 tank 10 minute push you try. However, if you scout them not going mass zergling (lair, baneling nest, roaches, mutas, infestors, or anything not zergling-related), then thats when you should do that push. You should be able to deny a 3rd every time, and maybe even kill them outright.
3. I don't know why it doesn't work for you, it normally should. Maybe you aren't target-firing the infestors with tanks when the engagement happens?
4. Have your tanks seiged up a little bit away, so that if zerglings try to kill the marines that are killing creep, then you just run back into your seige line and they lose a of zerglings.
|
On September 30 2011 20:55 deathtrance wrote: So what's your opinion on making reactors with the barracks nerf? Seemingly now from only 10 seconds longer, it's become 15 seconds longer, and that sounds a bit longer and less appealing to not be without production for those 15 extra seconds. Shouldn't really make a difference for me, though, as a gold player. Just wondering if reactors are still kinda useless.
EDIT: any new replays with the new patch?
They're not totally useless, they're good when going you're about to saturate a new base or real late game and I think I'm going to be using them more often as well b/c of the rax time nerf.
I have a few replays but I don't think too many notable players...I've been working out TvT lately.
On October 01 2011 14:50 positron. wrote: Couple of questions regarding the Korean transition out of 2 rax FE.
1) Why would you get vikings if you see infestors?
2) When do you push out? I usually do reactor hellion expand then attack with 3 tanks at 10 min. Sometimes they lose their natural and sometimes they beat me straight up and proceed to win the game.
3) How do you micro against infestors? Against mutaling/bling I know to pre spread marines, poke in with a small group while leap frogging tanks into positions but this doesn't seem to work against infestors play.
4) You said after get 5 or 6 marines deny creep spread but how do I do that? If I send out 5 or 6 they will just kill my marines with speedlings.
Viking --> clears air space for drops, snipes ovies, scouts
2. covered in guide
3. you don't necessarily want to prespread. Your DPS is limited as your marines, if too spread out, let lings get good surface area and marine's aren't all attacking. Covered in guide how to actually do it.
4. you're supposed to do it after nogas from Z and thus, they won't have speedlings to kill you.
edit: Also, I've added that the SlayerS style is best against nogas Z as they rely on spines at front and you will abuse by dropping in main.
|
|
Thanks a lot for this guide, I've really been struggling in tvz in particular, really helped out
|
Reactors are worth it imho, 15 seconds is basically how long it takes for a round of lings to pop, so if you're doing a timing push, it's better to add reactors than more rax if you plan on hitting after your production is done, but again, reactors vs more rax will always be a decision that you have to make based on what's going on in the game, I used to favor naked rax over reactors pretty much any day of the week, but lately I've found that they have a pretty damn good use, and you can drop a faster third gas which gives you more options as far as tech goes, and you don't have to sacrifice your marine count, as you can save 200 minz by dropping a couple reactors instead of 2 more rax.
|
On October 02 2011 17:20 CatNzHat wrote: Reactors are worth it imho, 15 seconds is basically how long it takes for a round of lings to pop, so if you're doing a timing push, it's better to add reactors than more rax if you plan on hitting after your production is done, but again, reactors vs more rax will always be a decision that you have to make based on what's going on in the game, I used to favor naked rax over reactors pretty much any day of the week, but lately I've found that they have a pretty damn good use, and you can drop a faster third gas which gives you more options as far as tech goes, and you don't have to sacrifice your marine count, as you can save 200 minz by dropping a couple reactors instead of 2 more rax.
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel as well, but some maps I like the naked rax for their walling capabilities as well.
|
I want to break my computer right now because I can't seem to deal with zergs who can hold off early pressure, make 30 mutas, and gain map control, and double expand while he confines me to two base. I can't seem to find the magical technique to fend off muta harass on 3+ bases. I can't move out because his mutas always then move in and begin to ravage my tanks or production while he expands more and masses up a 200/200 army.
I'm thinking about building a sensor tower so I can spot his mutas ahead of time. Halp D: I hate constant mass muta players who decide to harass me when I'm halfway across the map to push.
They'll magic box over thors too >.> 30 mutas is a pain in the ass to deal with.
|
thank you thank you thank you!
Great guide!!
cheers!
|
Wow, absolutely godly post. I am working on it hard, chose the 12/14 Rax into either Korean (large maps) or 2 Fact Siege Tank (close positions) to start with. It's not easy to get it done correctly, but even when I miss my macro hard, I still know the builds are so damn good . Do you know if there is anything comparable for TvP and TvT?
|
How well does the heavy bio opening work( MM + 1/1 upgrade)?
|
Just gotta say I wish this was the level of quality of every guide on TL. I've switched to Toss since this guide came out and even though Toss is prolly the best overall documented race on TL there is not a single guide that matches this one for Toss.
GG mate.
|
Is it bad to go mass turrets if you see mass mutas? I am tired of seeing those suckers hit my base when my army go out; especially on large maps. If map is small enough I just make marines to defend the harrass until my main army hit their base and hope that it will force the mutas back.
|
Mid game you wouldn't want mass turrets maybe 3-5 depending on the map when mutas are out but when you're ready to push with a large army, Z will always fly mutas in to your base to try to force you back so then you'd need a lot more turrets, 3-4 per base and sometimes I leave a few marines in the base too and then use rallying marines to clean up the rest of the mutas if they stil don't go back
|
Are there any reasons why one would one want to go Reactor Hellion instead of 2rax?
I prefer the 12/14 rax myself (I usually don't go for a Bunker though), going in with 3 or 6 marines to see if I can punish a greedy Zerg. It feels much more comfortable against a Roach rush then a straight up Reactor Hellion build as Hellions don't do much against Roaches.
The Hellions can ofcourse roast Drones and/or Zerglings but once speed is out aren't they in a similar position as marines would be and be forced to go home?
|
On October 12 2011 22:04 Thezzy wrote: Are there any reasons why one would one want to go Reactor Hellion instead of 2rax?
I prefer the 12/14 rax myself (I usually don't go for a Bunker though), going in with 3 or 6 marines to see if I can punish a greedy Zerg. It feels much more comfortable against a Roach rush then a straight up Reactor Hellion build as Hellions don't do much against Roaches.
The Hellions can ofcourse roast Drones and/or Zerglings but once speed is out aren't they in a similar position as marines would be and be forced to go home?
Reactor helion is definitely better than 2rax higher levels against good Zs (though 2rax isn't at all useless, look at MVP v Nestea games this and last season). The reason is, good Zs spread creep really, really well. Imagine playing against Coca and not being able to stop his creep spread. The reactor helions give you the advantage in that they can deny creep the entire game unless he makes roaches or mutas. With proper care of your helions outside his natural, he shouldn't be able to take them out with just lings. Yeah it's easier holding a roach rush with 2rax and like day9 says, you're getting units you're going to use the entire game (marines).
If you want I can write down the builds I do per map almost everytime:
Reactor Helion: Metal, shattered, antiga 2rax: XNC Reaper expand: Typhon, shak, nerazim Nogas FE in to BF Helions: Taldarim, shak, antiga
But back when I was still learning I'd just 2rax every map but then started adding in reaper expand and then reactor helion.
|
I'm still definitely in the learning part, I'll stick with a 2rax for now until I'm comfortable with Hellions. As for the 2rax, I prefer the 12/14 rax as it doesn't cut any SCVs. Ofcourse the attack does show up a little later as a result.
Do you prefer the 11/11 rax or 12/14 rax, what is your experience between these two?
|
On October 13 2011 21:03 Thezzy wrote: I'm still definitely in the learning part, I'll stick with a 2rax for now until I'm comfortable with Hellions. As for the 2rax, I prefer the 12/14 rax as it doesn't cut any SCVs. Ofcourse the attack does show up a little later as a result.
Do you prefer the 11/11 rax or 12/14 rax, what is your experience between these two?
11/12 if you want to do a lot of damage on a short map 12/14 if you just want to put on light pressure force lings and maybe a spine and such.
|
Thanks very much for this, appreciate it very much so, helps a TON! :D
|
Hey is it viable to play 1 rax FE ? I was wondering if you can defend that roach speedling all-in/pressure from 2 bases?
Edit: ok i watched mma vs lucky, mma defended it nicely with 1 bunker and 2nd nearly done.
|
Great post, I used to like to MECH against zerg because it was easy, but this works sooooo much better
|
Do you have any tips/tricks for microing Marines against mass Banelings?
I went up against a Zerg that went Ling/Baneling/Muta and although I managed to win the game (helps to be on 5 base vs 3 base and having 3/3 upgrades :D) I lost a lot of marines off creep to rolling Banelings. In closer games/engagements that could've lost me the game.
I usually put the whole army on 1, the marines on 2 and the tanks on 3. I've been trying to hit 2, stim the Marines, run them back and get the Tanks to shift focus-fire on the Banelings but this turns out to be a lot harder than it looks even. Ofcourse sometimes I hit 2 instead of 3 when right clicking on the Banelings with painfully hilarious results.
Anything you know about positioning, movement or controls that might help with this? I can provide the replay if that helps.
|
Well if you're accidentally clicking the wrong button when trying to micro that just comes down to not practicing it enough really...
That method should work fine just practice, try and scan before attacking in to Z or them attacking in to you as well.
|
Doc, what is your opinion on a 1-gas banshee tvz? There are many possible variations obviously, but the idea is that it delays 3rd considerably on most maps.
I remember from my zerg days (playing at a decent level), that I found it a real pita to deal with, since you can't really scout the 1 gas and have to assume cloak.
|
TvZ is my absolute worst matchup, and alot of times I really feel lost when entering the midgame. This guide is such a breath of fresh air for me after feeling borderline helpless in TvZ, and the fact that you continually update it is amazing! TY~
|
On October 26 2011 10:39 dementrio wrote: Doc, what is your opinion on a 1-gas banshee tvz? There are many possible variations obviously, but the idea is that it delays 3rd considerably on most maps.
I remember from my zerg days (playing at a decent level), that I found it a real pita to deal with, since you can't really scout the 1 gas and have to assume cloak. doesn't do much if goign straight up mutas. Instead of taking a fast third, they can just place a macro htach before the third, no harm done
|
On October 26 2011 11:28 Br3ezy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 10:39 dementrio wrote: Doc, what is your opinion on a 1-gas banshee tvz? There are many possible variations obviously, but the idea is that it delays 3rd considerably on most maps.
I remember from my zerg days (playing at a decent level), that I found it a real pita to deal with, since you can't really scout the 1 gas and have to assume cloak. doesn't do much if goign straight up mutas. Instead of taking a fast third, they can just place a macro htach before the third, no harm done
Yeah I never do this but whenever I do I see Terrans get wrecked when a Z does 44 drone mutas cause now T is going to have to play very passive. Of course you can get thors to stop the ensuing mutas but then you're going to be forced to 2 base for a long time.
You could even spread creep and just get queens there.
|
i like and i am from UT too keke
|
Hmmm does this still hold for plat/gold level these days? Since this post started long ago i am wondering. It does not cover the correct approach vs the 1 base bane/1 base roach...I die to the 1 base roach when it happens qq it is so annoying. Should have seen it coming....but somehow i always fail to get enough defense...
|
On December 29 2011 16:28 thesums wrote: Hmmm does this still hold for plat/gold level these days? Since this post started long ago i am wondering. It does not cover the correct approach vs the 1 base bane/1 base roach...I die to the 1 base roach when it happens qq it is so annoying. Should have seen it coming....but somehow i always fail to get enough defense...
Reactor hellion opening, delay 2nd cc for bunker + marauder, pull scvs in time.
|
Is this guide still viable ????
|
On December 30 2011 13:37 Goku___ wrote: Is this guide still viable ????
For the most part. Obviously the auto win siege timing on close positions doesnt work anymore [lol] but i have been learning to offrace terran as a masters zerg and this guide is always my go to. its really good unless you are trying to hit a specific build for your style that is not listed. Other wise macro and following his advice will get very well suited.
TLDR: If you need a tvz guide that is this general/overarching then yes it is still valid
So many terrans dont know about tanks on a hotkey and target fireing banes even in diamond. so many diamond terrans dont split well and if can do the 2 of those + macro you are set. As he says if you can target fire splitting is less important and below masters you can do whatever you want if you can macro VERY well so defenitley look at it.
|
Wow didnt know this has been around here for quite long, will definitely improve my TvZ, so thanks, i'll appreciate the effort you've put into it!
|
On December 30 2011 13:39 mapleleafs791 wrote:For the most part. Obviously the auto win siege timing on close positions doesnt work anymore [lol] but i have been learning to offrace terran as a masters zerg and this guide is always my go to. its really good unless you are trying to hit a specific build for your style that is not listed. Other wise macro and following his advice will get very well suited. TLDR: If you need a tvz guide that is this general/overarching then yes it is still valid So many terrans dont know about tanks on a hotkey and target fireing banes even in diamond. so many diamond terrans dont split well and if can do the 2 of those + macro you are set. As he says if you can target fire splitting is less important and below masters you can do whatever you want if you can macro VERY well so defenitley look at it.
Doesnt matter how well you can macro, you will never win against a zerg if you only a move unless you play mech.
|
On December 31 2011 03:48 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2011 13:39 mapleleafs791 wrote:On December 30 2011 13:37 Goku___ wrote: Is this guide still viable ???? For the most part. Obviously the auto win siege timing on close positions doesnt work anymore [lol] but i have been learning to offrace terran as a masters zerg and this guide is always my go to. its really good unless you are trying to hit a specific build for your style that is not listed. Other wise macro and following his advice will get very well suited. TLDR: If you need a tvz guide that is this general/overarching then yes it is still valid So many terrans dont know about tanks on a hotkey and target fireing banes even in diamond. so many diamond terrans dont split well and if can do the 2 of those + macro you are set. As he says if you can target fire splitting is less important and below masters you can do whatever you want if you can macro VERY well so defenitley look at it. Doesnt matter how well you can macro, you will never win against a zerg if you only a move unless you play mech.
When did i say dont micro? is target fireing banes with tanks not micro? did i say not to split? am i giving advice to gms with my statement? i NEVER said a move...
target fire banes and splitting + macroing well is somehow improper advice sub masters then idk.
and to my point. what is easier for a sub master or sub diamond player, Splitting vs 10 clumped banelings or shift right clicking them with tanks and watching them evaporate with no need to split? you tell me
|
Like a boss. Although some content may be outdated in today's meta game, this guide is still GOLD!
|
what data here is outdated? I started playing this week, and dunno all the changes that the games has had.
|
Nothing's really outdated. It's just a bit heavy on the 2rax. Unless you have a sick 2rax, I'd stick with something long the lines of reactored hellions for the most part,
|
Yeah, most of the BO's are outdated, as all the transition BOs are followups to a 2rax. So just go reactor hellion. Everything else is relevant to the current patch.
|
The "if zerg goes infestor first he won't be aggressive" part isn't true anymore. These days they mass upgraded lings and ultra rush with infestors or get a lot of roaches and a-move to your 3rd (obv only viable on some maps), and it's much harder to stop than you would think. Pro's keep losing to this stuff as well. Also they stopped forgetting that infestors can actually move while burrowedm, lol.
But overall this guide is pretty sick =)
|
How do you counter this mass ling + upgrades into fast infestors
|
On February 10 2012 22:16 zezamer wrote: How do you counter this mass ling + upgrades into fast infestors It's hard to say, the most successful thing I've seen pro's do vs infestor rush styles, is timings with bio and a lot of medivacs. Also the hellion-marine-elevator thing is strong, but I personally don't like that. Even though ideally you'd like tanks to kill the infestors before they fungal too much, this doesn't really work cos the mass upgrade ling style seems to just overrun it early on. So try forcing their army out of position with some drops and kill the 3rd and get the hell out, that kinda stuff. But yea, if you aren't a gsl champion your control probably wont be anywhere near sufficient, whereas for the zerg it's simple to a move lings and fungal some. You can also go for a fast 3rd and do some sexy turtling, but it's often hard to deal with hive rushes (map-dependent).
|
is guide still usefull? cuz im former high diamond zerg who just switched to terran and i need a good tvz guide.
|
|
with the ghost nerf im guessing you don't recommend them anymore. Vs infestor broodlord what's your new method of combat?
|
|
|
|