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On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote:
idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands.
yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even.
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On July 07 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote:
idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands. yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even.
no you're not. if you lose the hatch you lose the game every time. Killing the scvs means killing one or more bunkers full of marines with slow zerlings, i.e. cost ineffectively. even if you can trade 2 lings for 1 scv/marine, which never happens, its still not a good trade; his expansion will be earlier than yours, and 1 base is dead vs double mule.
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On July 07 2011 21:41 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 21:10 Big J wrote:On July 07 2011 20:39 dementrio wrote:
idra also said that he now believes if terran commits to a 2rax they are going to kill the hatch. OTH reactor hellions is very popular, hatch first is waay better against that and hellions are very good against speed expands. yeah, if they do they will, but they have to bring a lot of scvs... so if you can hold your 1base and kill the scvs you are at least even. no you're not. if you lose the hatch you lose the game every time. Killing the scvs means killing one or more bunkers full of marines with slow zerlings, i.e. cost ineffectively. even if you can trade 2 lings for 1 scv/marine, which never happens, its still not a good trade; his expansion will be earlier than yours, and 1 base is dead vs double mule.
+ Show Spoiler +Jinro did this in his up/down matches against Zenio and Coca. Killed the hatch with a 2rax, and both came back I think. I have no season ticket for gomtv to rewatch it but I think those two games are pretty much the best examples for a terran that goes 2rax against a zerg to kill the hatch, brings a lot of SCVs but doesn't really get an advantage of it.
also if he pulls a lot of SCVs (6+) you can simply sac the expo and deny reinforcements with lings(if you catch some of them rallying... even better), keep ling production up, kill his cointain and the SCVs and be ahead with something like 15vs10 workers. (he can't expand very fast with so many SCVs pulled)
ofc if you simply let him build bunkers, lose the hatch and then attempt to kill bunkers with a ton of repairing SCVs and like 10+marines around you are dead...
I'm not saying I recommend this stuff (being a zerg myself), but any 2rax that has a lot of eco behind it is holdable and any 2rax that doesn't is recoverable, if you exectue your defense right. (except for retarted rush distances like metalopolis close and other imba stuff like that...)
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Amazing guide, thank you!
I wish I would of started with a different hot key setup, after 2000 games its going to be hard to change. I really need more than 2 army hotkeys after reading this.
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Great write up, can't wait to watch the replays when I'm home
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On July 07 2011 23:04 maddogawl wrote:
Amazing guide, thank you!
I wish I would of started with a different hot key setup, after 2000 games its going to be hard to change. I really need more than 2 army hotkeys after reading this.
switching hotkeys is easier than you might think, trust me ^^
OT:
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G guide. thank youuuu~
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Wow, this is a disgusting guide. Thanks for writing it! 
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Wow, this is an incredible guide. It's really helped smooth out some kinks in my low level gameplay :D
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awesome guide!
there was not many good terran resources lately :3 ( I kinda want to write one up, but, sadly, I'm not that good yet)
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I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play.
Here a replay of mine from today.
In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to.
You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while.
The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base.
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A ton of good stuff in this guide, really appreciate it! Nice to see a guide about very standard play without any gimmicks. Will be keeping a close eye on the further development of this guide as well, I've been struggling a bit in TvZ lately (Master level as well) so this helped me to get a much better overall view of the matchup.
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Doc... you wrote more here than all your college papers together. Nice read though but I wish you would teach my low platinum ass some of this awesomeness!
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Brilliant guide [: couple of holes but I'm sure you'll fill them. Discussed all the strong viable builds imo, but I am wondering, have you tried early drop play before? Reactor for when starport finishes, 16 marines with stim & combat shield dropped behind mineral line? From what I have seen it can set the zerg way behind against pure ling or just low baneling count. Bomber vs Destiny g1 the most recent example I have seen.
And also, what do you think about tackling infestors with banshees instead of ghosts? Cloaked if resources allow. Infestors die super fast and with simple splitting you can force a lot of fungals. Follow up with marine & tank and can clear out lingbling quickly and snipe hatcheries. With enough infestors killed/fungal energy lost can protect banshees with marines quickly. Can easily force sporecrawlers at expansions too. Can lead into battlecruisers which do amazing if zerg does not have corruptors. This is in my experience playing against master zergs. Ghost play to me is weak against the zerg just flooding lings/banelings. It's also absolutely perfect against ultralisks if for some reason your opponent wants to lose the game.
I love the tip you give near the end about just dropping everywhere once you see greater spire. A lot of people need to know about this
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Fack I just creamed. This is exactly what I've been looking for. Thank you so much for putting this together, now please do one for TvP and TvT XD
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On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base.
Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/.
For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push.
But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win.
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Nice I just switched from Protoss to Terran and really had no idea how to play the matchup at all. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to help newbies like me
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I think...I think you just made me get to Masters!!(we'll see when next season starts)
<3<3 THANK YOU!
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On July 08 2011 01:41 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 01:00 imbecile wrote:I really think TvZ needs more Ghost/Nuke play. Here a replay of mine from today.In the broad stokes this game pretty much played out exactly like I intended it to. You will notice that my opponent is better than me in pretty much every core skill aspect. Better macro, better unit control etc. Also, I'm playing so sloppy, as is to be expected at my skill level. Losing tons of units left and right unnecessarily, leaving holes in my walls, pretty bad base management etc, leaving things unattended or quite a while. The only thing I have going for me is a good plan that leaves very few options to the opponent. And even if he reacted perfectly to the nukes (and mistakes happen easy there), I'd still have about a minute where he couldn't produce much of anything while tank marine are in his base. Not to dismiss anything or sound like an elitist prick but... I watched your replay, and even though it must have been satisfaying as hell to nuke the guy like you did, there is nothing at your level of the game that can be used for a constructive discussion on high-level TvZ. In the lower league, and up to diamond/low master actually, the game is just about doing less mistakes than your opponent rather than using cute strats :/. For what it's worth, I think nukes could be used in a similar fashion than drop are used : to distract/make your opponent look elsewhere while you set up your main push. But once again, let's not derail this thread, and GG for your win.
Well, I'm aware I'm bad. The point I'm trying to make though is: Tank/Marine/Medivac is as standard as it gets. And adding ghosts and nukes isn't that expensive or complicated. The point of the nukes is to kill larva and eggs, everything else is just bonus. Why? Because if I kill all his larva and eggs, I have a long timing window to kill him. Zerg very rarely will have detection, having scouted my starport with reactor, and me having vikings out on the floor then. He will almost always go muta and use all the gas he has on them. I defend home while the ghost do the nasty. And if he has the detection ... I just move out with the ghosts in my army and land the nukes while my army protects the ghosts.
I don't see why this shouldn't work at a a higher level. Up to starport it is as standard as it gets. And in this game I got the academy at the same time as the starport, well, I did a lot of damage and had the resources left over because my macro slipped earlier.
All I want is to see more nukes. I don't have the time and talent and ambition to get to high level. I just wanna see the world burn  Some bored master terrans might pick up on it, and maybe eventually this will get added. MMA used nukes in late game to great effect already after all.
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awesome guide, i love insights like these into how to play a certain matchup.
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EPT
