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You'll still need WGs if you want to be aggressive though. 
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:
I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though:
1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that defend 4 gate that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I'm not saying that other builds can defend and don't require you to have 6 stalkers initially. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
All three of your points are very good ones. Faking a 4 gate will result in 15 seconds late gas (30 or so gas less) which is totally acceptable if it results in a chance for your opponent to play less greedy. Personally, I feel like people have become less scared of 4 gate and keep doing their greedy build anyways to try and get an edge late game and have a build that can somehow hold 4 gate if they micro well correctly and can delay the warp ins a little bit. It's personal preference, I think it is very viable to fake the 4 gate (in fact I put it in the BO)
Second point isn't so true, you basically decide whether and when you want the extra stalkers. If I am going robo tech with this for example, I put my robo down. If I am having a micro battle with initial stalker zealot, I will see whether or not he puts a proxy pylon down. A good warp gate will reach your ramp by the time you have to decide whether or not to warp in your first round of units so you really never have a time when you have to warp in 3 blind stalkers.
As for point 3, I agree with the reduced effectiveness for an offensive purpose. For example, you will not be able to reach one of those phoenix + 3 gate timings to bust up ramps for example. Neither will you be able to execute a 2 immortal 2 colo push. However defensively you will be fine.
robo vs robo for example, if your opponent has a very early robo (tyler build) he will need to get 1 or 2 immortals out before starting colo production just to stay alive. With my build, you don't need to get an immortal and can immediately tech to colossus thus you won't be late in the colossus count. Of course you will be at a disadvantage vs crazy toss players who just straight up tech to colo without being safe at all, but that's the coin toss aspect of PvP that we can't change.
Same with stargate play, you won't be making non stop air units until the end of the time (I don't have much experience with stargate play but massing phoenixes hasn't really paid off for me... I find that getting 4 or 5 is the right number before they start losing in efficiency), so eventually delaying the tech isn't that bad. Keep in mind that for robo and stargate, you are building the structures at ~5:20 (which isn't that late when compared to other relatively safe builds)
But you are indeed right in saying that blink transition is the most natural one. For very high level PvP, I would always recommend to go with blink if doing this build. Low master and under, you can easily pull off any of the tech transitions I mentionned. i wanted this to be an "all level guide to playing safely" so I added the ways to play robo and stargate as well. And incidentally, some situations may require you to go robo for the robo transition.
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On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
I've never tried skipping warpgate entirely so I'm not entirely sure, but since gateway units take 40 seconds to build, that means that to catch up the warp-in cycle deficit you have, you need to use 4 chrono boosts on every gate ? I can see how with chrono boost you can get 1 extra unit out, but surely not a full cycle on all three of your gates ?
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On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research.
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On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research.
i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol
i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing
heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
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On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
I think that's a good idea. I personally feel like 3-4 units down for 20+ seconds is win/lose. I'd like to know if it's possible to hold without. Maybe if your control is superior to the 4gater, but I wouldn't want to rely on such an uphill battle. Battles are decided in 20 seconds and being down 4 units is quite a bit. when you only have so many.
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On July 05 2011 12:22 To3-Knee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride I think that's a good idea. I personally feel like 3-4 units down for 20+ seconds is win/lose. I'd like to know if it's possible to hold without. Maybe if your control is superior to the 4gater, but I wouldn't want to rely on such an uphill battle. Battles are decided in 20 seconds and being down 4 units is quite a bit. when you only have so many.
he has 3 extra units max because all of my chronoboost goes to my units, he uses some on his warpgate (and if he doesnt, i have a immortal by the time his 4gate hits). so he has max 3 more units than me, and i have reinforcements coming out in 20 seconds (plus an immortal most likely). so he has 20 seconds to do as much damage as he can before i got my immortal out. . its actually less than 20 when you factor in walking distance from his proxy pylon to my base
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On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride
How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve.
I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
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Seeing as this is supposed to be a safe build, the only tech structure you ever want to be doing is robo. But that doesn't mean you have to commit to immortals or colossi, you can simply get an observer and tech to something else.
Nightend used to do robo->stargate, but I don't think it's any good now that people have figured out how phoenix play works.
Players like Huk and Kiwi like to get obs into blink. It lets you have enough stalkers to defend any blink rushes, shuts down dt openings and gives you map control against other robo users (even before blink, he can't go into the open with your superior stalker count).
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
I'd just like to say that I love this. Can I watch? ^^
And I used this build pre-patch. Standard, safe, solid, but I almost feel it's too safe. Play that doesn't cut any corners isn't bad necessarily, but if you know what corners to cut, you can do very well. I liked it better when 4 gate was more common. Still, good build to know about.
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I'm eagerly awaiting the replays. I'd be somewhat suprised wet my pants if I saw someone win with a strat that defends a 4-gate without researching WG.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
gogo
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Just wanted to offer my thanks for this build. Have been using it does indeed stop 4gates in their tracks. The actual unit advantage is necessary for me as my micro is poor.
I also wanted to say, as someone who used the 3 stalker rush fairly often, it's use against the 4gate with pretty difficult for me. I sometimes missed the pylon and ended up losing to a 4gate in any case. I'm not saying it's a problem with the build, but in execution, it was not something you could guarantee to get right 100% of the time. At least this is something I can do.
Thank you again.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
I can't believe this guy actually thinks he can beat you lol
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On July 05 2011 18:06 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 I can't believe this guy actually thinks he can beat you lol
I think he just wanted to pay 20$ to play a Bo3 with a top player ^^ Depending on how much he values his TL account, I think a strat forum ban will be of much bigger value to him than 20$ 
Keep us posted on how this goes guys !
On a side note, these Bo3 showdowns don't actually tell us once and for all who was right, but they sure are a lot of fun. If it were that easy, I'd gladly challenge a couple of posters who have criticized this build ^^
Incidentally, I'm still waiting for Cecil's answer on the points I have mentioned in my last post to him. He is one of the posters whose opinion I value the most and I’d be very sad if he left the thread without clarifying some points 
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy.
how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me
the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge
but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose)
here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options)
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On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:
how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me
I believe the mods have an option that allows them to ban you from the strat forum only, which should have much the same effect and doesn't require Saracen to keep track of where you're posting.
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3.
Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right?
So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas?
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On July 05 2011 20:04 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:
how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me I believe the mods have an option that allows them to ban you from the strat forum only, which should have much the same effect and doesn't require Saracen to keep track of where you're posting.
This is correct - you can see forum-specific bans in the ban thread. It's been a godsend for the strategy forum.
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How does this build work against 2g robo? It seems too me that you'd fall behind in tech against all robo play.
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EPT
