[G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate - Page 2

On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote:
good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.

a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.

your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.

TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.

On July 04 2011 22:30 Geiko wrote:
Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50.

On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote:
There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.

If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works.

On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:


I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build.

OP: great post, thanks a lot.

On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:


Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively.

Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army.

On July 04 2011 22:30 Geiko wrote:


Yes I addressed this point as well. First of all, the micro battle at the bottom of your ramp will be 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 sentry for you, and 1 zealot + 1 stalker + 1 probe for him (the second stalker cannot be there while you are putting your pylons and only arrives at 5:45 - 5:50. If it does get to a point where he places his first 2 pylons at the bottom of your ramp you will have to use your first FF only when he warps in his 4 stalkers. Your two stalkers should finish before his and start shooting at the warping in stuff.
You warp in 2 stalkers and 1 sentry, kill off what is in your base and FF 2 or 3 units if he tries to go up the ramp.

Against zealots, sentry have almost the same DPS as a stalker, keep in mind that you have a one unit advatage and well placed FF will extend that adavantage.

On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:


9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core
19 gate
20 stalker, warpgate
22 two stalkers
26 two gates
26 proxy pylon
5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot

Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker

I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL

I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries)

and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful.

try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951



The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city.

On July 05 2011 01:37 NB wrote:

first of all about 1 stalker 1 zealot vs 1 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry:
the 4 gate player could easily target your sentry if you dont use your FF properly. the situation will come down to you trading a sentry for his zealot while his stalker getaway....

lets ignore the 4 stalkers wrap in possibility and talk about 4 zealot wrap in which make (2 stalkers +1zealot) + (4 zealots). these will be on top of the ramp vs you 3 stalkers 1 zealot 1 sentry which has no FF (plus 3 wrapgate wraping in). Assuming army trade happen here, the next wave of wrap in will be earlyier from his side and its 4 units instead of 3.

Sentry might do almost the same as stalker vs zealot but they dont have the ability to kite zealot as well as they have no HP to do so. Against player who can execute a perfect 4 gate (which could be easily practice by playing vs AI) these cant held off. Watch Hwangsin stream, the only thing he does in PvP is 4 gate and every time the other guy must response with a 4 gates of his own or he is dead 1 way or another.

On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:

This is just plain false. For example on White-Ra's stream yesterday he held a 4 gate with the 3 Stalker opening into 4 gate. You use your three Stalker advantage to kill off the enemy two Stalkers. Then you produce more and have 5-6 Stalkers as they are warping in units. You continually warp in Stalkers and keep the enemy Stalker count low, and you'll just win. White-Ra did this even with a nearby proxy pylon and two on his low ground. The caveat is that you need to be competent in order to keep your Stalkers alive (even White-Ra blundered a couple times and lost a few unnecessarily).

Edit:

GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.

On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:

This is just plain false. For example on White-Ra's stream yesterday he held a 4 gate with the 3 Stalker opening into 4 gate. You use your three Stalker advantage to kill off the enemy two Stalkers. Then you produce more and have 5-6 Stalkers as they are warping in units. You continually warp in Stalkers and keep the enemy Stalker count low, and you'll just win. White-Ra did this even with a nearby proxy pylon and two on his low ground. The caveat is that you need to be competent in order to keep your Stalkers alive (even White-Ra blundered a couple times and lost a few unnecessarily).

This build would will give you no map presence, and if I see a sentry that early I won't be thinking "I need to hurry up and attack him before he gets his defensive position". I'm thinking "Lets lay down a free Twilight Council and keep total reign over the middle of the map", or something to that effect. You have no offensive potential, and an opponent can lay down an earlier tech structure than you and get an advantage. For example what if I open with an early second assimilator and I see you got a sentry so early, and a later assimilator? I'm definitely going to be controlling the middle of the map looking for proxy pylons everywhere while taking very early tech.

What would happen vs the common 3 Stalker opening? They'd have map presence, free reign around the map, an earlier second gas and thusly better economy, more Stalkers, and earlier Blink (or tech of choice).

My conclusion is that this build can be good in a single situation (where the enemy ram's their face into you with early offense), but that's it. It doesn't have a solid game plan, doesn't have any deviations depending on information revealed, and doesn't have a way to keep the opponent in check early game.

Edit:

GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.