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I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
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United States8477 Posts
On August 07 2011 07:04 whereismymind wrote:
I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
You just cut off his units as he's walking up your ramp. For example, if he has 6 stalkers and 5 zealots trying to get up your ramp, forcefield off 3 or 4 zealots and move back slightly so that only his zealots can fight your whole army while his stalkers can't do anything.
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On August 07 2011 07:04 whereismymind wrote:
I have few questions. Let me clear something:
If you don't steal his gas, and if he goes with 2 gases, I think the best idea is to instantly put your second gas, and while having 2 gates instantly put twilight council for fast blink, and after than 3rd gate + don't forget to mass probes to 20 on mineral(perfect saturation 2.5) + 6 on gas.
If he still goes for 4gate, than you do this build as normal, kill his pylon if possible near your ramp, so he can't warpin on high ground..
But here goes the question, is it possible to defeat 4 gate if he waits few seconds for another 1 or 2 round of units(since 4 gate outproduce 3gates). I had that game yesterday, do you just put one more gate or what do you do? council imediately after 3rd gate? robo?
What 4kmonk said.
Regarding what you should do tech-wise, it all depends on how safe you want to be, and how good you are. If you are master level and know that you won't miss your FF, cutting off as many units as you want, then you can keep your tech building, get a few probes, make stalkers off of 3 gates and you'll be fine. This build crushes delayed 4 gates so you can easily probe up and tech up during the engagement.
If you are not entirely confident on your ability to defend a 4 gate, then you can cut probes at 22, get an extra sentry out in case you miss a FF and cancel your tech building to pay for the first round of units. Don't get a 4th gate unless you're really really bad because that sort of defeats the purpose of this build ^^.
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Hey! I put up this build in Liquipedia for everyone to enjoy! If you don't want me copy/pasting your work over there (I credited you with creation), shoot me a PM! Hope you don't mind!
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I don't like this build. the gateway at 24 supply sends off alarms that you're using an anti 4 gate build. in general if i see fast 2nd gateway I hedge against the possibility of 4 gate pressure and invest more in tech.
also, you get zealot-->stalker-->sentry. i think a better order is zealot-->stalker-->stalker
i believe a fundamental need for defending 4 gate with less than 4 gates is having map control. fast 2nd stalker gives you map control and lets you see if your opponent is indeed 4 gating. if you only have one zealot one stalker one sentry you have less map control and won't be able to as easily confirm 4 gate
a common mistake I feel people make in PvP is that it's notjust about rock paper scissors build order losses, it's also about having a build that you adjust based on 1. your opponents opening bo (can he hard 4 gate or not?) as well as having map control during the phase when your scouting probe gets chased out and being able to confirm if he's 4 gating (adjust your BO to heavily invest in defense/chrono out units) and being able to see that he's not 4 gating and then adjusting your BO.
for ex if you get fast 2nd stalker you can use the map control you have to confirm if he's 4 gating. it gives you more options instead of BLINDLY committing to an anti 4 gate build that gets behind if your opponent plays greedy.
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On August 09 2011 10:56 foobahz wrote:
I don't like this build. the gateway at 24 supply sends off alarms that you're using an anti 4 gate build. in general if i see fast 2nd gateway I hedge against the possibility of 4 gate pressure and invest more in tech.
also, you get zealot-->stalker-->sentry. i think a better order is zealot-->stalker-->stalker
i believe a fundamental need for defending 4 gate with less than 4 gates is having map control. fast 2nd stalker gives you map control and lets you see if your opponent is indeed 4 gating. if you only have one zealot one stalker one sentry you have less map control and won't be able to as easily confirm 4 gate
a common mistake I feel people make in PvP is that it's notjust about rock paper scissors build order losses, it's also about having a build that you adjust based on 1. your opponents opening bo (can he hard 4 gate or not?) as well as having map control during the phase when your scouting probe gets chased out and being able to confirm if he's 4 gating (adjust your BO to heavily invest in defense/chrono out units) and being able to see that he's not 4 gating and then adjusting your BO.
for ex if you get fast 2nd stalker you can use the map control you have to confirm if he's 4 gating. it gives you more options instead of BLINDLY committing to an anti 4 gate build that gets behind if your opponent plays greedy.
Who is talking about blindly doing anything? You can use your first stalker to scout around and confirm if he's 4-gating. By the time you put down your second gateway and assimilator, you should have an idea whether the opponent is teching or 4-gating himself. If he put his 2nd gas down faster than yours, you'll have seen that with a scouting probe and you can match him and rush to tech yourself, cutting corners. This build essentially guarantees you'll have your 2nd gas as quickly or quicker than the opponent and you won't be behind. If his response to seeing you put down a 2nd gateway is to throw down his 2nd gas and tech, it's no problem, because your 2nd gas is going down at the same time as his.
The problems you speak about in PvP don't have anything to do with this build, it's with the players and how they approach the game.
With that said, when I think of "safe" PvP tech builds, I think of pretty much this one and 3-stalker build. 3-stalker relies a little bit on scouting luck to stop 4-gate, and it's MUCH more easily scouted much earlier compared to Geiko's build, but it gives you more map control and early pressure if you choose. Geiko's build, on the other hand, looks like a 4-gate for much longer, forcing the opponent to play safer, and it keeps you safe against 4-gate without relying on luck. But it doesn't give you as much map control early as 3-stalker opening. I don't think it makes this build bad; it's just a consequence that you have to deal with. Personally I sacrifice even more map control going robo (and council later), whereas the Blink followup gives you ALL the map control, it doesn't mean robo is inferior, it means there's more to the game than just map control.
Lastly, going zealot -> stalker -> stalker with this build doesn't make sense, it delays the gateways and you lose the sentry which is important to holding the 4-gate. I will do this if I scout something other than 4-gate and I want to save gas for my robo, but if you want to be safe (and need to be, based on what you scout) I think the build is just fine as it is.
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The answer is self-evident.
MORE SENTRY. Those win games.
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How does this build do if your opponent realise he can't kill you with his 4gate and back downs from the ramp and does a contain on you and keeps you in your main while he keep up with probe production and expands at the same time? What do you do from here to keep up? :O
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Russian Federation63 Posts
On August 11 2011 01:23 Termit wrote:
How does this build do if your opponent realise he can't kill you with his 4gate and back downs from the ramp and does a contain on you and keeps you in your main while he keep up with probe production and expands at the same time? What do you do from here to keep up? :O
You use your tech to kill him.
Specifically, colossus tech allows for a decent timing push off 1 base. You can get it before he can start benefitting from his nexus.
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If my opponent goes dt, isnt he ahead because i waste so much time trying ot get a forge and robo up that it allows him to expand much earlier than i can.
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United States8477 Posts
On August 12 2011 12:40 DoctaD wrote:
If my opponent goes dt, isnt he ahead because i waste so much time trying ot get a forge and robo up that it allows him to expand much earlier than i can.
You're more criticizing a blink stalker opening than the actual build. No one's forcing you to do a blink stalker followup. You can make a robo if you don't see a dedicated 4 gate coming instead of 3 additional stalkers.
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On August 09 2011 16:28 MechKingPrime wrote:
The answer is self-evident.
MORE SENTRY. Those win games.
no, more sentry is bad. you want to cut the army in half, then kill it. you cant rely on mass sentry, as you can warp over forcefields. you need to have 1 sentry, and as many stalker as possible, and a few zealot, cut his army in half, and kill it.
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Why do you cut probes at 24? Also, I feel like your tech doesn't have to be late compared to tech builds at all. When I do a 3gate much like yours, I skip the zealot, get an earlier second gas and block off the ramp with 2 gates (and a pylon when I think I'll be in need of it). I always defend easily against a 4gate using 2 sentries and stalkers whilst doing a 3gate robo/council build, without cutting probes (only when in dire need.) If I slightly mess up, I may just cancel tech, cut probes, get a 4th gate en get ready for a fight. I'm also mid-masters and I've yet to lose outright to a 4gate this way.
EDIT: I also gas steal whenever I can in which case I get tech slightly later to ensure I'll defend against his likely 4gate.
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if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
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United States8477 Posts
On August 12 2011 15:54 L3g3nd_ wrote:
if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
Lol, it sounds like you're offering your services to 4 gate people.
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On August 12 2011 15:54 L3g3nd_ wrote:
if anyone wants to go online and practice this build against a 4gate im keen, im 750masters (NA or SEA)
I would, but I'm on EU 
Do you still have doubts about its potential to hold 4 gate or do you wish to try something else ?
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I love you. I just smashed a 4gate with this- oh happy days. 
(Took a LOOOONG break from laddering so... I just started using this now lol)
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I just smashed a 4gate and transitioned into blink... I really love blink it's great to use it in pvp as my micro is my strong point  .
One fast question: When should you be looking at getting a robo? I'm traditionally a 4gater, so I'm quite clueless in terms of when to expand, when to get truesight, should we get an observer in order to harass effectively? ie. Observer up ledge, blink up snipe a building blink back down against say a robo build. Should we get a robo if we feel it's safe? If the other player transitions into blink micro what are some things you can do to beat him. Once again, grab a robo and go into immortal play?
Thanks if you can answer these questions it would be great, but at the moment I'm just really glad I've finally found a way to beat a 4gate.
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On August 16 2011 02:13 pezzaperry wrote:I just smashed a 4gate and transitioned into blink... I really love blink it's great to use it in pvp as my micro is my strong point . One fast question: When should you be looking at getting a robo? I'm traditionally a 4gater, so I'm quite clueless in terms of when to expand, when to get truesight, should we get an observer in order to harass effectively? ie. Observer up ledge, blink up snipe a building blink back down against say a robo build. Should we get a robo if we feel it's safe? If the other player transitions into blink micro what are some things you can do to beat him. Once again, grab a robo and go into immortal play? Thanks if you can answer these questions it would be great, but at the moment I'm just really glad I've finally found a way to beat a 4gate.
Nothing more satisfying than to beat a 4 gate 
Unfortunately, your questions are out of the scope of this thread, I can direct you to these threads on how to play the mid game :
Robo Twilight PvP
Twilight council PvP
In fact I'll add these to the OP.
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EPT
