EPT[G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate - Page 10
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Loes
Canada115 Posts
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
Yes, this beats 4-gate. I haven't lost to 4-gate with this build yet. Although I haven't tried it yet on Tal'Darim, I plan to, because I'm not convinced it won't work until I test it. Because this build is about "safe" PvP, I want to mention that modern robo-then-twilight seems way safer as a followup than straight up blink. The only time I think I might advocate blink straight up is after holding a 4-gate. Their tech will be so late, and they'll probably contain and expand, that you'll win with the blink push. Plus, you'll have more units and blink fits the money expenditure well too (as Geiko says in the OP). I chrono warp gate and the first stalker rather than 3rd chrono on probes. Makes them think it's 4-gate and play less greedy (hopefully). Although if their probe sticks around they'll see the 2nd gas before the stalker pops, of course. With that said, when I scout an early 2nd gas from opponent indicating a tech build, I skip the sentry and sometimes even the 3rd gate and put down a robo pretty fast. IMO this is the safest response to seeing any early tech. Based on what my scouting stalker sees, I can choose to make a fast observer (if I suspect DTs) or chrono immortals (if he's going blink). I then add on a twilight council pretty quickly. At this point, it's possible to go blink+immortals, so you can beat their pure blink army and then chase them down. I can go blink in order to harass with observers for vision, while expanding and later adding whatever tech (most likely charge+archons) that I want. It's possible to go fast charge and add a templar archives for archons. Chargelot+Archon+Immortal is actually an amazing composition and beats colossus armies (I'm not 100% sure about very late-game armies with ~8 colossi though, games rarely go that long). I can even go DTs if I scout no detection from opponent with the observer (or if he went blink or DT himself and it was thwarted thanks to the robo). Tons of followups, and you get a ton of scouting because you have a robo bay that you AREN'T dedicating to super fast colossus production. 2 observers are standard. "Safe" is the best way to describe this followup, and it works perfectly fine as a followup/deviation from Geiko's truly "Safe" opening. Replays (this is customs between high diamond players, so grain of salt!): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222617.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-222618.jpg) | ||
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
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Geiko
France2045 Posts
On July 25 2011 10:28 Xahhk wrote: I can manage everything warping in at 5:55, nothing faster though:/ (bringing the total to 6 stalker 1 zealot 1 sentry). 5:55 is fine ^^ As you go up the leagues, your execution will become better naturally. Being late by a couple of seconds doesn't mean that you'll auto lose, it just means that you'll have to micro a little harder. Besides, most 4 gates don't hit at 5:43 either (even in GM league) | ||
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DueleR
United States207 Posts
On July 25 2011 19:36 Geiko wrote: 5:55 is fine ^^ As you go up the leagues, your execution will become better naturally. Being late by a couple of seconds doesn't mean that you'll auto lose, it just means that you'll have to micro a little harder. Besides, most 4 gates don't hit at 5:43 either (even in GM league) Yea, when you're laddering and play game after game it's hard to stay focused for every one. I'm high master's and I 4gate most PvPs, I check times afterward and my initial warp comes anytime from 5:45 to sometimes like 6 minutes (lol) depending on if my focus slips on chronoboost or with my probe during the initial zealot/stalker micro battles...it doesn't usually make a huge difference (although of course if I see him also doing a 1 gas 4gate, I usually try a bit harder to make sure I stay on track...but if I see something risky like 1gate or 2gate robo I usually can break it even if I mess up and my warps are like 15 sec late). | ||
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
[B] TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever. u dont need to deny the proxy.. its just a bonus if u succed in doing so. the whole point with the build is for you to fight off his first wave of warp ins without anything else backing them up.. which means u will lie 4 units ahead. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 21 2011 12:35 Sogetsu wrote: Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In) PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues) I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 26 2011 03:13 Anihc wrote: I don't think this 2 cannon defense thing works. I just played someone who tried this and I still won easily with a 4 gate. This defense may hold off the initial 6 stalker + 1 zeal attack, but if you just wait for another round or 2 of units you easily roll him over. To stop a delayed 4 gate you need to keep investing in additional units/cannons, but you'll never know if he's opting to do a delayed 4 gate or if he's teching up instead (and if you keep focusing on units/cannons you'll be behind in tech if he does tech instead.) Yeah I had someone do this to me last night. You just wait a couple rounds then poke and see if you can go up. If he keeps making a lot of units you can't go up the ramp, just like any other scenario. But if he tries to do something else there's a good chance he'll over-estimate the value of his cannons and just die. He also can't tell what you're up to, and if you do decide to just not engage the cannons, they are sunk resources for basically nothing. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 26 2011 05:04 CecilSunkure wrote: Yeah I had someone do this to me last night. You just wait a couple rounds they poke and see if you can go up. If he keeps making a lot of units you can't go up the ramp, just like any other scenario. But if he tries to do something else there's a good chance he'll over-estimate the value of his cannons and just die. He also can't tell what you're up to, and if you do decide to just not engage the cannons, they are sunk resources for basically nothing. lol was it Vadar? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Maybe don't remember  | ||
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RuMpLe
Australia9 Posts
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AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
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Huntz
164 Posts
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely. Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill? Thanks, really clueless about this. | ||
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tofubeans
United States794 Posts
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Geiko
France2045 Posts
 I'm looking forward to 4kmonk's guide on PvP mid game, he seems to know a bunch of PvP and expresses his thoughts very clearly. It should answer a lot of your questions as well. If you want to gas steal, you need to do it right before you take your own gas (after the second gateway). However if you choose to do this, you'll only be truly safe vs 4 gate if you cut probes 21 and 22. This can put you behind if he is not 4 gating. But then it's all about mind games if he attakcs your assimilator fast or not etc... I only gas steal against players who go for chronoboosted stalker first and don't take their second gas super fast. (usually when the stalker is halfway done.) | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote: Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster. Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely. Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill? Thanks, really clueless about this. If you scout robo and you've already put down the twilight council, you're actually in the best possible position imo. I go robo before twilight and I can still get chargelots+archons out in time, so if you're opening twilight first and you can't get that stuff out in time you're definitely doing something wrong. I'm not sure how it takes a long time to get; you already have the twilight council, right? Firstly, in order to be safe vs blink the other guy needs to make 2 immortals before starting a colossus. If he hasn't, blink in and snipe the immortal and win the game. Secondly, you ought to scout his robo/an immortal/lots of zealots before your blink has finished (assuming you scout his tech at around 6 minutes. Personally I'd just cancel blink and go charge while putting down a templar archives immediately. A player going robo has little map control. He won't push out until he has at least 2 colossi. You absolutely should cut unit production if you have to, in order to tech and get more probes. It's safe to do so. You'll have charge finished and at least 1 archon by the time his push hits if he's 1-basing you. Make sure you engage in an open field where you can get a zealot surround. If you scout robo so late that you're already committed to blink with a bunch of stalkers, I'd still go charge and archons and try to stall him with blink harassment, but if he commits to an attack early it might be difficult to win. Perhaps this is what's happening, in which case I suggest scouting earlier/better and going charge the instant you see robo play. I'm not a big fan of blindly going blink first for precisely this reason, it sets you behind against robo play. I'd say I only go blink if I've held off a 4-gate using Geiko's build, because their tech will be pretty darn late and blink ought to win the game there. It would help if you post a replay, too. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
That would then allow the opponent to be able to quickly expand get minimal saturation and build extra gateways or continue unit production and add tech buildings. | ||
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