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On July 29 2011 04:02 kineSiS- wrote:
The thing is..., four gate will always be a prominent build and it could easily allow the aggressor to delay you from exiting your base until you get a Collosus...
That would then allow the opponent to be able to quickly expand get minimal saturation and build extra gateways or continue unit production and add tech buildings.
Such a bullshit, please leave these forums, you must be troll.
1. 4gater has less probes
2. You dont need to get colossus to leave your base, blink is enough and you should get it ~8:00 if you go 3gate TC
3. HOW THE HECK DOES HE CONTINUE UNIT PRODUCTION AND ADD TECH BUILDINGS WITH 20 PROBES AND CONSTANTLY MAKE UNITS? HE CANT
4. same for expanding, you just simply dont HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUILD DEFENSIVE UNITS TO PROTECT YOUR EXPANSION
5. You dont clearly have a clue about pvp.
Those are the reasons why failed 4gaters gg straight away or tries to do risky builds, BECAUSE THEY ARE BEHIND [I_would_so_much_like_to_insert_few_insults_here]
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If you scout robo and you've already put down the twilight council, you're actually in the best possible position imo. I go robo before twilight and I can still get chargelots+archons out in time, so if you're opening twilight first and you can't get that stuff out in time you're definitely doing something wrong. I'm not sure how it takes a long time to get; you already have the twilight council, right?
Firstly, in order to be safe vs blink the other guy needs to make 2 immortals before starting a colossus. If he hasn't, blink in and snipe the immortal and win the game. Secondly, you ought to scout his robo/an immortal/lots of zealots before your blink has finished (assuming you scout his tech at around 6 minutes. Personally I'd just cancel blink and go charge while putting down a templar archives immediately. A player going robo has little map control. He won't push out until he has at least 2 colossi. You absolutely should cut unit production if you have to, in order to tech and get more probes. It's safe to do so. You'll have charge finished and at least 1 archon by the time his push hits if he's 1-basing you. Make sure you engage in an open field where you can get a zealot surround.
If you scout robo so late that you're already committed to blink with a bunch of stalkers, I'd still go charge and archons and try to stall him with blink harassment, but if he commits to an attack early it might be difficult to win. Perhaps this is what's happening, in which case I suggest scouting earlier/better and going charge the instant you see robo play. I'm not a big fan of blindly going blink first for precisely this reason, it sets you behind against robo play. I'd say I only go blink if I've held off a 4-gate using Geiko's build, because their tech will be pretty darn late and blink ought to win the game there.
It would help if you post a replay, too.
Ah ok, I wasn't scouting soon enough. I reread the OP and realized that you can push with 6s/1z/1sentry, see a high stalker count and run before blink finishes and destroys you (right?). Previously I waited for blink to finish for this reason.
It was taking so long to go archon/charge because I was so locked into blink already.
As for a replay, that's really not relevant to this thread, and even if I was losing winnable games due to macro errors, I wouldn't be able to win with better macro because I had absolutely no idea what I was doing =/ Blink won't beat robo in a straight up battle after the collo are out.
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i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
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United States8476 Posts
On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote:
i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
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On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote:
Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this.
MLG spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
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MLG spoiler
Link? Or where I can find this?
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On July 30 2011 10:09 Huntz wrote:Link? Or where I can find this?
They are being played right, now. I think they give out the replays at the end of the weekend.
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They are being played right, now. I think they give out the replays at the end of the weekend
Oh lol, not much of a spectator. Anywhere I can watch live for free, and where would replays be after release? thanks
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote:
Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler +
Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
+ Show Spoiler +I completely disagree with this. The only reason naniwa lost was that he made a wall and thus funneled his units and fully exposed his gateways. I used to exclusively do a defensive 3 gate with a wall, but I stopped for exactly this purpose: A blink stalker push or any push with an observer can easy either funnel your units and kill your walling gateways.
You cannot rely on killing your opponent with a blink up to his ramp or picking off units. This can work if your opponent is super greedy, but you shouldn't depend on it to win.
I'll have more answers about robo blink vs blink vs robo in my upcoming guide, but here's the short answer on how to play blink vs robo:
Expand. The bigger the map the better. Your opponent can do one of a few things.
He expands: You harrass him and have better econ.
He goes collosi allin: Base trade with him.
He goes immortal push: Base trade with him.
He goes immortal blink stalker: You have 2 options:
1. Delay his push with a superior blink stalker count while you wait for your econ to kick in.
2. Make a mix of sentry/zealot/immortal and use forces fields to hold him off.
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On July 30 2011 10:15 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote:
Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler +
Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
I completely disagree with this. ...
Spoiler your posts ^^
+ Show Spoiler +
Naniwa would have lost with 2 more units anyways. Also Huk Miss microed his first wave of units and still rolled the immortal army afterwards. I'm really not a fan of 1 gate robo builds vs blink play.
But you are right that walling off vs protoss isn't the best idea when you're not facing 4 gate.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2011 10:22 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 10:15 4kmonk wrote:On July 30 2011 10:02 Geiko wrote:On July 28 2011 23:23 Huntz wrote:
Can anyone add on as how to play blink vs. robo? I usually win blink vs. blink (unless I'm greedy and lose to dts or something), but I lose nearly every blink vs. robo. I feel like every time I poke up his ramp he has zealot/a few stalker/an immo, and each poke trade benefits him (I should blink better?). And don' think I can just blink up and kill him. Then he just adds on immos before going collo and once the collo are out he just rolls me. I've done a few base trades but his army is just so much stronger it doesn't matter if I kill his base faster.
Archon/chargelot is a nice composition but it takes so long to get out unless you stop making units entirely.
Are you supposed to slowly wittle down his units by poking and perfect blinks and then go in for the kill?
Thanks, really clueless about this. MLG spoiler + Show Spoiler +
Huk does a 3 gate blink stalker build which gets blink at about the same time as my build. naniwa gets a 1 gate robo opening with 2 chronoed immortal. You can see exactly how you are supposed to play blink vs robo in this match
I completely disagree with this. ... Spoiler your posts ^^ + Show Spoiler +
Naniwa would have lost with 2 more units anyways. Also Huk Miss microed his first wave of units and still rolled the immortal army afterwards. I'm really not a fan of 1 gate robo builds vs blink play.
But you are right that walling off vs protoss isn't the best idea when you're not facing 4 gate.
My bad about the spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +I'd have to watch the game again to be sure, but I'm fairly certain that at one point when naniwa had 2 immortals, he would have held indefinitely if it not for that wall. He might have beat naniwa before this point, but I don't know because I wasn't watching the first 15 seconds of the fight. The wall just forces you to either lose your gateways or funnel your units.
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On July 29 2011 18:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote:
i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
idk if thats an insult or what. after playing more games with it i want to clarify that that is more of a plan more than a cut and paste constant build order up to 20 minutes or something. also i should note that the "plan" i mention is only good so long as you are being cost effective and microing properly and its 1 base vs 1 base. do not under any circumstance let it become your one vs their two base for any amount of time or you lose all your momentum. i'm diamond, but i'm not terrible as long as i play a macro game. i played grandmaster revpinky for 25 minutes before losing even though i'm diamond. in rush circumstances, i'm like silver league bad.
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On July 29 2011 18:12 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:14 BoondockVeritas wrote:
i <3 this build atm. i've been using it whether the enemy protoss looks like he's 4gating or not because it kinda deters 4gate push plus warp ins if they poke up and see units like this. they usually go for blink next in my experience tonight. i usually go blink too, but since mines done first i can poke and see whats up. this build > blink > forge/robo (or both) > charge > ht for archons and then get an attack and go has been amazing in diamond so far. i feel like im turtling and he's getting ahead, but after looking at replay you're like 20 food ahead. really fun opening build ^^
This can be more attributed to the fact that you're in diamond and you have an actual build rather than the fact that this build is some type of miracle.
The barrier just keeps getting higher and higher, doesn't it?
Back around december and earlier, there was this kind of talk about bronze/silver. Now even diamond players don't even have builds yet? Get real.
That aside, really useful guide, Geiko! Even though the build is capable of defending a proper 4gate, it still takes quite some micro and practice to be able to pull it off correctly. For players that have been trying to defend 4gate (prepatch) with builds like 3GR and 3stalker, this is probably already ingrained, though.
In this light this still is a build that requires you to be a bit better than your opponent to use it, but not nearly to the extent that 3gate robo used to.
Definitely my favorite way to play PvP atm.
The only map where the matchup is still kind of weird-ish is Altar LE, probably due to the possibility of late scout and the lack of a main ramp. I haven't really run into consistent problems yet, but it always feels a bit iffy trying to decide to do this build or not.
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United States8476 Posts
Not meant as an insult. I was commenting on the fact that he was 20 supply ahead without any engagements and at the same time using a non greedy build.
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You claim you have more units and erm ... he runs out of resources ? :s its actually possible to 4gate up to 23 probes , finishing warp gate transformation at 5:35 and have 1 zealot 2 stalkers out before warpgate transformation with or without double gas... so... erm ... its just micro heavy like every pvp , since there will be a 10 sec interval every 22 secs (since warpgate cd is 28 and warpins take 4 secs) that he has more units than you as long as you trade on equal grounds :::sss
just wondering because atleast i can execute it like that >:
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United States8476 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:01 terror-eu wrote:
You claim you have more units and erm ... he runs out of resources ? :s its actually possible to 4gate up to 23 probes , finishing warp gate transformation at 5:35 and have 1 zealot 2 stalkers out before warpgate transformation with or without double gas... so... erm ... its just micro heavy like every pvp , since there will be a 10 sec interval every 22 secs (since warpgate cd is 28 and warpins take 4 secs) that he has more units than you as long as you trade on equal grounds :::sss
just wondering because atleast i can execute it like that >:
One forcefield is all you need to cut off his units in half and win the battle. He'll also be attacking onto high ground and won't be able to throw down a proxy pylon at the ramp.
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I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but stealing their second gas seems like a very good choice to force them into 4 gate. I'm sure a 75 mineral investment is manageable.
As for the build, it looks really cool and Solid, which my PvP was missing after the patch.
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4kmonk : another question... if he ffs... isnt it viable to put the zealots / zealot on hold position since you are at 6 stalkers at first warpin with 5:35 4gate , and possible 8-9 stalkers at the next warpin and putting the zealot on hold and concaving around the edges of the ramp to get the surface area...
so if it comes to that , is it def win for the defender or comes it down to intensive micro ?
if the 4gater does that... do you just select around 2 stalkers to target the zealot without giving surface area to the edges and just sit back chill and warpin sentries ?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:37 terror-eu wrote:
4kmonk : another question... if he ffs... isnt it viable to put the zealots / zealot on hold position since you are at 6 stalkers at first warpin with 5:35 4gate , and possible 8-9 stalkers at the next warpin and putting the zealot on hold and concaving around the edges of the ramp to get the surface area...
so if it comes to that , is it def win for the defender or comes it down to intensive micro ?
if the 4gater does that... do you just select around 2 stalkers to target the zealot without giving surface area to the edges and just sit back chill and warpin sentries ?
Yes, you target the zealots with stalkers and he won't be able to attack your stalkers back.
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On July 31 2011 23:20 FiWiFaKi wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet, but stealing their second gas seems like a very good choice to force them into 4 gate. I'm sure a 75 mineral investment is manageable.
As for the build, it looks really cool and Solid, which my PvP was missing after the patch.
I am also wondering if to gas steal, therefore forcing a 4 gate / delaying his tech is better because you no longer commit to cutting eco for units to stop the 4 gate which may or may not be coming if your scouted was limited and didn't gas steal? Also completely stop/delaying dark Templar which seems to be the biggest whole in the build due no detection that planned.
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EPT
