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On July 19 2011 04:34 Harmonized wrote:
I played a guy going chargelot/archon on 1 base. He even had a forge upgrading +1 and my blinkstalker army still got rolled. Would you say it´s possible to play blinkstalkers vs this army composition?
I got rolled too by a guy who went 1 base chargelots recently ^^
The mistake I made was to go deep in his main and get surrounded by chargelots. If you fight them on the ramp, with blink micro you should beat this. Get a robo when you can (they'll most likely get a dt shrine for archons) and abuse cliffs with obs + blink stalker.
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On July 19 2011 04:59 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 04:34 Harmonized wrote:
I played a guy going chargelot/archon on 1 base. He even had a forge upgrading +1 and my blinkstalker army still got rolled. Would you say it´s possible to play blinkstalkers vs this army composition? I got rolled too by a guy who went 1 base chargelots recently ^^ The mistake I made was to go deep in his main and get surrounded by chargelots. If you fight them on the ramp, with blink micro you should beat this. Get a robo when you can (they'll most likely get a dt shrine for archons) and abuse cliffs with obs + blink stalker.
I'd like to add to this... When playing against chargelots, he obviously has a lot more DPS, but the key here is to stay inside or close to your natural choke (if you have one) or any other one (like the side of xel'naga, passages into your territory in Typhon), and FF off a few chargelots and pick them off as you come back to your base, everytime charge comes back, FF again, the archons will break, but the charge will have worn off and give you more time to kite. If they are right in your base, same rules apply, you just have to be aware of the damage they're doing to your base. Once you're forced to engage, do blink micro, and after the pick-off's you've done, you should come out ahead. Be sure to add zeals of your own during your warp-ins during this time to give you tanking... You don't need many probably not even more than 3, but that will give you time to kill an extra 5 or so zeals. After you kill the majority of the zealots, snipe the archons, and then warp in sentries, as FF will be your savior. If he comes in with more archons, it won't be more than 2, or have no zeal support, so it won't be a problem. GL and HF!
Mainly, FF well, be aware of archon breaks (if they're in front, FF behind them, and force no dps while they break for the rest of the zeals, if they're in back, ff off 5 or so chargelots to force them to bring up the archons and waste APM), and blink micro to come out ahead when engagement is neccessary!
Also, if he's going mainly archons, less chargelots, archons kinda just die to blink stalkers, so don't worry about the FF, you'd be better off with a GS.
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what do you do against somebody who opens robo into immortals and get blinks to keep up with your mobility?
do you not expand unless he does and what unit composition should you go?
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On July 21 2011 08:07 DoctaD wrote:
what do you do against somebody who opens robo into immortals and get blinks to keep up with your mobility?
do you not expand unless he does and what unit composition should you go?
These type of questions are out of the scope of this thread as my build's only purpose is to get you to the mid game with no economic or tech disadvantage.
Noone is qualified yet to right a full guide on PvP and there are many different options you can do in response to immortal into blink.
Personally, if your opponent isn't senselessly massing unit and is getting multiple tech path, I always feel it's a good idea to get a robo when you can afford it. Observers will give you even more mobility and, when fighting an immortal + stalker army, immortals are going to be usefull as well.
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It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready)
2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote:
It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready)
2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way.
As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so.
3 stalker rush is a good build.
forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons.
And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot  (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote:
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
Whenever you expect to hold a 4gate, you should have a proxy or at least a probe somewhere nearish his ramp... just for this reason...
this also applies when playing against terran..
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Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle?
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On July 21 2011 08:50 epikAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle?
If you theorycraft a whole bunch, it should work if you hide your sentry in a corner and double FF the choke when he tries to get in, cutting half of his army off.
In reality, it just never works like that and I have never managed to pull it off vs good players. Defensive 4 gate still seems like the best build for this map, or some sort of naniwa build where you get 2 gates, and then get 2 gates later once you have confirmed that a 4 gate is coming (which it will most of the time)
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IMO, this build is pretty good against 4 gates. However, if your opponent goes for quick blink or robo build, you will be a bit behind in tech. So far, i think if you're not afraid of 4 gates (and you actually want your opponent to 4-gate you in this case), it's better to show him the 2nd gas. A lot of protoss players, after seeing the 2nd gas, will probably show their true build by making the 2nd gas themselves, and you will be free to tech-up faster. If their intentions are to 4-gate you, they will definitely do so after they saw your 2nd gas anyway.
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On July 21 2011 08:36 Geiko wrote:It's actually a quite resilient build. If you look at the replays vs harstem (very high level master, his 4 gate beats grandmasters like mouzMana) you'll see that I held it off even though I was missmicroing a bit, and even forgot to warp in a gate way. As you said, stopping the 4 gate is easy, this build aims at stopping the 4 gate AND not sacrifing econ and tech to do so. 3 stalker rush is a good build. forge + 2 cannons + seems like it will die to either a pure blink build or a fast expansion uppon scouting the cannons. And yes I'm that guy, I get that alot (although I wasn't plat, just my terran was ~plat level). That thread got sooo many views ^^ Last week I played VTdesrow on the ladder and he asked me if i was THE geiko from the 3 rax build :p
Ah Ok, I will review it. Anyways, the idea of the Cannons is a timing defense, not early, just in time, then your enemy could not scout them until he comes to rush
The timing was something like 4:00 Minutes Forge starting, then you end with 2 Cannons exactly when 4 Gates is gonna hit you. Supporting the defense with 2 Gates + Robo/Twilight/Stargate , you can defend and Tech
Anyways you need to constantly scout him to see how he reacts when the 4 Gates Fails , because like you said, if he decides to go Blink after the Fail Rush, or Expa inmediatly after failing, yo need to Expand or Tech ASAP to counter him
I was really surprised when a GM give me that advice, but it works if you can scout the 4 Gates, negate your enemy' scout from minute 4 mark, and react properly when you see what is he gonna trying after the fail 4 Gate Rush (Expa or More Tech All In)
PD: What level were you playing Protoss when doing the 3 Rax rank? And also, is it a good idea to rank fast without getting many skills? I am teaching some players and my friends told me "Teach them 4 Gates", but I do not want to do it untill they get at leas basci concepts in macro, and can reach a dcente Mid Game ( they'rereally low leagues)
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On July 21 2011 08:57 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 08:50 epikAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal ' Darim altar? Would about if you replace the Sentry with a Stalker, or would their extra reinforcements still be too much to handle? If you theorycraft a whole bunch, it should work if you hide your sentry in a corner and double FF the choke when he tries to get in, cutting half of his army off. In reality, it just never works like that and I have never managed to pull it off vs good players. Defensive 4 gate still seems like the best build for this map, or some sort of naniwa build where you get 2 gates, and then get 2 gates later once you have confirmed that a 4 gate is coming (which it will most of the time)
I've seen many people try using many variations of using sentries to hold off a 4 gate in tal darim. I've yet to see it work.
Anything other than zeal/stalker 4 gate just loses to standard 4 gate unfortunately.
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Thanks gonna have to try this.
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As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map.
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On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote:
As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map.
4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes
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On July 21 2011 08:26 Sogetsu wrote:
It seems good, but anyways a simple mistake and you are dead, like all well excecuted 4 Gates
I will try it, but actually the ones I am using are
1) TriStalker (Then the Robotics being ready)
2) Forge + 2 Cannon + AnyTech (Twilight, Robo or Stargate)
The problema actually is not "stopping" the 4 Gates, it is that if you do it in a defensive way, you can't sometimes end the game right there after his push, even if you are ahead
I will try it and test for myself. Also aren't you the Master who was Plat and ranked with All In ussing Terran?
3 Stalker is similar to this build in that it can hold off 4 Gate reasonably well, but your Forge + Cannon build actually works? I would assume somebody would just throw down a Robo once they see the Forge and hit a little bit later with a Warp Prism in your main.
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On July 22 2011 00:19 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote:
As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map. 4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes
Maybe, but my thought is that you play it almost like PvZ early game, where you just forgo Stalkers and have enough Sentries to FF until you have your tech. To be fair, I realize that defensive 4-gate (with or without upgrades) is a much better option, I'm just saying for the sake of variety.
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On July 22 2011 00:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:19 zezamer wrote:On July 22 2011 00:11 Requizen wrote:
As a thought about Tal'Darim, what about using this same build, but cutting Stalkers completely and going straight Zealot/Sentry with Charge (and upgrades if gas allows)? You can use the same advantage as them: With no real chokes, Zealots can cause havoc with surrounds and the like. I wouldn't be sure at all about timings, but it seems feasible given the open-ness of the map. 4 gate will kill you 2 years before charge finishes Maybe, but my thought is that you play it almost like PvZ early game, where you just forgo Stalkers and have enough Sentries to FF until you have your tech. To be fair, I realize that defensive 4-gate (with or without upgrades) is a much better option, I'm just saying for the sake of variety.
TC/Charge that early sucks up a lot of gas. I'm not sure how you think you'll be able to constantly warp-in Sentries while getting that tech AND having enough minerals for a healthy number of Zealots for when he inevitably gets up your ramp. Sentries take forever to kill low-ground Pylons and all it takes is one Stalker part-way up the ramp for him to warp-in Zealots and end the game.
I've had some success teching as quickly as possible to DT, and trying to delay the proxy Pylon/first warp of Stalkers with Zealots. I mean straight-up sacrificing 5 Zealots and forcing him to kite them around with his Stalkers. If I do this as far away from my main as possible, I've been able to start warping in DT's right when his 4-gate enters my base. From there it's about splitting off a DT to go to his base and protecting your Probes/Pylons from his 4 Gate. Haven't gotten the timings nailed down though.
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On July 04 2011 22:11 NB wrote:
good build but you have a wrong aproach to how to counter 4 gate. when you have 1 stalker 1 sentry 1 zealot up and you 2nd and 3rd stalkers are coming. There will be a probes spamming 2 pylon at your ramp with 2 stalkers 1 zealot protecting it. What would happen is that the zealot poke up the ramp, see the dps is much much less than what he has and you will have to use your 1st FF there. When the pylons complete and you still have FF, instead of wraping in stalkers, those will be zealot contesting ur defends (they wrap in on your ramp which FF cant block what so ever). From there the 3 gate will slowly be out produced by 4 gate under the condition that you cant make sentry to counter zealot in that case.
a better variation of the build could be placing your 2nd pylon at the ramp and have your 2nd and 3rd gate there. But it will be scouted and the other player could just tech switch seeing such a wall of with probe scout early.
your build is designed to kill a delayed 4 gate where you hope you could win the early micro 1 stalker 1 zealot battle to get out ahead. Its not a complete safe build and got countered the same way day9/tyler immo rush build except in the immo build you have the DPS to kill the pylons.
TLDR: you have no DPS to deny proxy pylon what so ever.
Please don't comment unless you read the article, he explains clearly what he believes is the best thing to do in this situation
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I'm a platinum league protoss and I've been looking for a solid pvp build that not only can counter 4 gate but also transitions well into tech. This build with the 2 gas is exactly what I've been looking for, thank you!
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EPT
