EPT(from this build's point of view, or in general)
[G] Safe PvP - Defensive 3 Gate - Page 7
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
(from this build's point of view, or in general) | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ? (from this build's point of view, or in general) I don't know. I don't usually gas steal so since I don't have any experience on it I can't comment. Sounds like it's a good idea from others, I should start trying it :p | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 07 2011 03:19 Geiko wrote: Hi Anihc, what is your opinion on gas stealing vs someone who is going for a 3s rush ? (from this build's point of view, or in general) I know you didn't ask me but... If the 3 Stalker rusher 13 Gates, he has enough minerals to get an Assimilator while the core is constructing, without interrupting the build. This allows you to take your second Assimilator earlier than you want to start mining, but in time to prevent a gas steal. Alternatively you can order a zealot in the event the opponent steals your gas. This sets you back by 100 minerals (and you need an earlier pylon to up your 26 supply max), but your opponent is set back by 75 minerals as well. Then you continue with your 3 Stalker rush with the third one being slightly delayed by the Zealot + pylon. If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: I know you didn't ask me but... If the 3 Stalker rusher 13 Gates, he has enough minerals to get an Assimilator while the core is constructing, without interrupting the build. This allows you to take your second Assimilator earlier than you want to start mining, but in time to prevent a gas steal. Alternatively you can order a zealot in the event the opponent steals your gas. This sets you back by 100 minerals (and you need an earlier pylon to up your 26 supply max), but your opponent is set back by 75 minerals as well. Then you continue with your 3 Stalker rush with the third one being slightly delayed by the Zealot + pylon. If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. Thanks for this, I will have to try out the timings. So basically it's always a good idea to gas steal someone who isn't getting a zealot (if you can) ? But regarding the 3 stalker into 4 gate problem that came up in the discussion, if the protoss does what you say, 13 gates and take a very early assimilator, he won't be able to cancel it before your probe dies, and the 4 gate will be delayed and weekened (thus probably defendable without the sentry and with an additional stalker) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 07 2011 04:18 Geiko wrote: Thanks for this, I will have to try out the timings. So basically it's always a good idea to gas steal someone who isn't getting a zealot (if you can) ? But regarding the 3 stalker into 4 gate problem that came up in the discussion, if the protoss does what you say, 13 gates and take a very early assimilator, he won't be able to cancel it before your probe dies, and the 4 gate will be delayed and weekened (thus probably defendable without the sentry and with an additional stalker) No you don't want to always gas steal. I would gas steal only in a BoX series if I thought my opponent was going to want to do a build with an early Assimilator. I don't think it's a good idea to regularly practice gas steals, or rely on them, as if you do your whole strategy can be bypassed by simply getting the Assimilator before you do. It's not something you should rely on doing ever, but if the opportunity arises, go for it. 3 Stalker into 4 gate problem? Well if you're going to 4 gate I don't think you'd want to let the Assimilator finish. If he sees you cancel it, it's not the end of the world, as either way you're 4 gating. It's more important to try to prevent a gas steal so early on than to let him see you cancel the second Assimilator. Does that answer what you were asking? | ||
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jarrydesque
584 Posts
Because now I know this build and want to practice it vs 4 gates, obviously no one is 4gating me anymore. Very annoying. Anyway, I've been squeezing in a gas steal when you put down your second gate and Assimilator so to try and encourage a 4gate, scouting dependent. I was also going to ask your thoughts on it. | ||
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JaFF
25 Posts
On July 06 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote: No, you are just plain wrong. 4 gates runs out of ressources very fast. Fast enough so he doesn't have a significant unit lead on you. He cannot go up the ramp or he will get FFed and lose everything. The only thing he can hope to do is setup a contain. You can easily squeeze in a twilight council once the first 5:50 push is over. Once your tech is done, if he hasn't pulled back by then you can just kill everything he has. You are way ahead as : -he has lost some units trying to go up your ramp -he has wasted ressources on a 4th gate -he has cut probes and greatly delayed his second gas. For anyone who knows how to play PvP, anyone of these conditions means that you will have a VERY hard time getting back into the game. I'm really skeptical of this 3 gate build defending a well executed 4gate rush. Assuming he plants both pylons at the bottom of your ramp, when he pokes up with his 1zealot 1stalker against your 1zealot 1stalker 1 sentry, you are forced to use your FF early or risk getting your sentry sniped. So by the time the first wave of units hit you won't be able to split his army and eventually just get overrun. To those who keep saying that 3gate is enough to spend all resources off 1 base with a pure stalker army, it's true. BUT with 4 gates your unit cycles start overlapping due to that extra 1 gate production, thus you'll be ahead in unit count at certain periods of times which is all the aggressor needs to win the battle. I read a post dismissing the use of this double proxy pylons at ramp style and i'm curious why. The only build i can see that effectively counters or prevents the proxy pylons from being laid is the 3 stalker rush build and that build is easily scoutable. Edit - Oh and i forgot to mention that a typical 4gate would have 5 chronos on the warpgate tech? Well, at least that's what it seems like in SEA GM league. So won't the aggressor's warp ins come earlier than yours since you only use 4 chronos on your warpgate tech? 2nd Edit - bleh typo. not expo =/ | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On July 07 2011 05:46 JaFF wrote: I'm really skeptical of this 3 gate expo build defending a well executed 4gate rush. Assuming he plants both pylons at the bottom of your ramp, when he pokes up with his 1zealot 1stalker against your 1zealot 1stalker 1 sentry, you are forced to use your FF early or risk getting your sentry sniped. So by the time the first wave of units hit you won't be able to split his army and eventually just get overrun. To those who keep saying that 3gate is enough to spend all resources off 1 base with a pure stalker army, it's true. BUT with 4 gates your unit cycles start overlapping due to that extra 1 gate production, thus you'll be ahead in unit count at certain periods of times which is all the aggressor needs to win the battle. I read a post dismissing the use of this double proxy pylons at ramp style and i'm curious why. The only build i can see that effectively counters or prevents the proxy pylons from being laid is the 3 stalker rush build and that build is easily scoutable. Edit - Oh and i forgot to mention that a typical 4gate would have 5 chronos on the warpgate tech? Well, at least that's what it seems like in SEA GM league. So won't the aggressor's warp ins come earlier than yours since you only use 4 chronos on your warpgate tech? It's not a 3 gate expo build. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
Even if you decide to do that, I feel like walking up the ramp before your first wave of units is done is suicide. Basically, I have 3 stalker + 1 zealot + 1 sentry at 5:33 which gives me a full 10 seconds to kill off your stuff before your warp in arrives. 1 zealot + 1 stalker is going to do exactly 0 damage to all of that, I can pull sentry back and micro it so it doesn't get sniped. I warp in 2 sentries and a stalker and FF my ramp constantly. Warping in units 4 at a time is going to get them killed very fast. After that it's all a micro battle, but in theory I can still hold a suicide double pylon attack. If you're interested to try, we can do a couple of games on the EU server. (geiko.813) | ||
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JaFF
25 Posts
 4 gate initial warpins come at 5:35-5:40. Warping in sentries is the worst response as the proxy pylons basically bypasses your FFs. (You can warp in stuff over FFs unless you throw down 2 FFs at a time) I feel that your build will be a lot safer if you spent 5 chronoboosts on your warpgate instead of 4. Without the extra chronoboost the aggressor has a whole 10seconds where he has a slightly superior army with reinforcements right at your door step. With proper micro and zealot splitting to mineral line i feel 4gate will just over run 3gates due to the extra production. Maybe i'll see if i can get someone to learn the build so i can post replays if you're still unconvinced | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
You are right, that sentries aren't useful, jusrt massing stalkers works fine. I just beat his 4gate with double pylon at the ramp straight up in all the games we played. Here are two of them, I even screw up the build, forget to warp in gates etc... ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-220054.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-220055.jpg) He pretty much tried everything, focusing down the sentry, the stalker, waiting for reinforcement etc... My build is really safe against 4 gate  I'll add these to the OP edit to JaFF: the advantage of 5 CB vs 4 CB is really only 7 seconds. Fastest possible warp in I managed while 4 gating perfectly is 5:43. Fastest possible warp in with my build is 5:50 (those times are for completed units, so minus 5 seconds for when you spend the ressource) This is due to the fact that the last chronoboost isn't spend on the whole duration. You might think that this 7 lead is a lot, but in fact I have the unit advantage at first : 1s + 1z + 1sentry vs 1s + 1z I then have 10 seconds of an even greater advantage 3s + 1 z + 1 sentry vs 1s + 1z (enventually an additional s coming soon) Then he gets 7 seconds of 2 unit advantage ( I get a couple free shots on his warping in units as well) and then it's just back and forth. The thing is I am getting pure stalker while he has to make zealots. You have the stalker advantage pretty much always, so you can just run and avoid the zealots while shooting the stalkers down. Also after having given it some though, the third chronoboost on probes combined with the early gas could trigger a 4 gate from an opponent thinking I am too greedy. I think either variation (3rd CB on nexus or on stalker and delayed gas or not) is viable. | ||
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chipman
United States139 Posts
Well it can be significant (the 7 second delay between not having, or having 3 additional stalkers), as you can just blow away the pylons being placed down to begin with, or snipe a poorly positioned unit (like a stalker dies in 2 volleys from 6 stalkers) Not a huge deal but worth noting. Another strength of having it earlier is warping in at the same time, so never at any point in time does the 4gater have "momentum". I guess it should also be noted that if you have a sentry and 6 stalkers already shooting at the other player as they approach your ramp, they may cancel the pylons immediately, cut their loses in the early game, start remaking probees and go home, but they will be supply blocked for 30 seconds so this hurts them as much as anything. | ||
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Geiko
France1936 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On July 07 2011 04:06 CecilSunkure wrote: If the 3 Stalker rusher 9 Pylon scouted, he'll be at a deficit of about 100 minerals, so he can't afford to make that adjustment, in which a gas steal would suck. I haven't played with 9 pylon scout for a while, so I'm unsure of what to do if gas is stolen. This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals. Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows: There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate. You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy. 2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win. Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote: + Show Spoiler + This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals. Also, it's been explained before but if you get the chance you should always gas steal a 3 stalker build if you recognize it and are given the opportunity to. There was a bo5 series between kiwikaki and minigun a while back in the finals of a tournament where in almost every game both players did the 3 stalker rush and if one player did that, the other would gas steal him. The reasoning behind it is as follows: There are 2 possibilities after you steal the gas: 1. He kills the gas, although it'll take forever to kill and you'll be ahead on gas. However, the disadvantages of this decision are that: He's not safe anymore from a 4 gate. + Show Spoiler + You know he's not super fast 4 gating you and you can play a bit more greedy. 2. He doesn't kill the gas: You know he's either going to 4 gate you or expand. Thus, you just have to go 4 gate yourself and either defend or attack his expo and win. Both end results are in favor of the gas stealer. How come he's not safe anymore from a 4 gate? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
3 stalker build defends against 4 gate by preventing proxy pylons from going up near your base, buying more time. If the stalkers are killing the gas, they are not denying those proxy pylons. | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
Because his Stalkers are stuck killing the gas instead of searching for Proxy Pylons. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Kudos to the OP, I especially love that this plays safe and can quickly transition into many different mid-game plays. I am slightly leery of how this fares against Robo plays, as you yourself pointed out. If the enemy sees this, a Zealot/Immortal push may be able to crush it outright, though I'd have to see replays and timing. I don't know if this has been brought up, but have you experimented with opening Defensive 3 Gate then cutting Probes and transitioning into 4 gate if he looks vulnerable? It seems like it might be a valid option, though I realize the point of a build like this is to move away from 4 gate as it is. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:51 4kmonk wrote: This is wrong. The difference in timing between a 9 and 12 scout is approximately 50 seconds and each probe that's one of the first 16 probes yields 39-45 minerals/minute. Thus, the difference between a 9 scout and a 12 scout is about 35 minerals. Well I do 13 scout, and the difference feels about the same as an assimilator, so I said about 100 mineral difference. I don't really care so much about the exact amount, it's that you can take the vespene earlier that's really significant. | ||
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
On July 07 2011 09:18 Geiko wrote: Ok we did some testing with Harstem (very high master like 1940, he trains PvP with pro players) who didn't beleive it could hold off the kind of 4 gate you are talking about. You are right, that sentries aren't useful, jusrt massing stalkers works fine. I just beat his 4gate with double pylon at the ramp straight up in all the games we played. Here are two of them, I even screw up the build, forget to warp in gates etc... Thanks for this. In the first replay, I feel that Harstem should have won (and you admitted already that you made mistakes in the BO). Nice build though. And I'm guessing this build isn't viable on open ramp maps? | ||
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