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On July 06 2011 03:47 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:
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true to an extent
3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point
lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo
4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas
3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas
both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment
however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um Lol you seem to be getting even more low level everytime you post. Now you think you can hold 4 warpgate with 4 normal gate and no robo on Tal'Darim ? Can I play you too and get some of that free rich-parent money ?
both of those can pump out a one base economies worth of units. the warpgates will have an extra 3-4 units between rounds due to getting units instantly. the warpgate does have an advantage in pure mechanics
butt ive been getting faster gates lately and a slower warpgate upgrade and i puts all chrono on gates so by the time he hits me i can have almost as much units (due to me pumping out extra during his warpgate upgrade) and my warpgate finishes pretty soon giving me another round of production its delayed but when you add it to the extra units i got out earlier this defensive 4gate is pretty good at overwhelming a 4gate i think. but i guess in the replays we will see if it can work against a good player
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With a 4gate defensive build with delayed warpgate, you should be able to just post a replay to note the timings which you are able to get units out. It can be compared to a well executed 4 gate and see the timing window where you have less units and that'll give a better indication if it can hold a 4gate or not. I'd imagine we can see the exact time window where you are down/up on units and by how many as well.
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Very interesting and very well written. Gonna try it, but i still love my blink stalkers pvp :D
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I like this, except I like chargelots instead of blink stalkers. I'll be using my gas on the high templars. I have this unique way of playing that uses chargelots like zerglings lol. Just think of protoss ling/bane. One uses zealots to go behind the back of opponent's army and hold them in place while storms are done. And if their army is spread, even better. Zealots pwn in 1v1 situations.
Both DT play and blink stalkers get shut down by robo play, but I think if one get's to scout opponent's active robo, chargelots/HTs will own. I'm not sure how well chargelots/HTs will fare against DT and blink stalkers though.
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How does this hold up against 2gate openings such as Adelscott's "no gas" build?
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 09:01 CreativeAlias wrote:
How does this hold up against 2gate openings such as Adelscott's "no gas" build?
You don't diverge into this build before scouting adel's 2 gate opening, so this is a non-issue.
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On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that.
Allright, I see your point.
I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost.
And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after.
So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army.
But when I have to micro I do mess it up.
Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 17:30 King of Town wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that. Allright, I see your point. I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost. And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after. So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army. But when I have to micro I do mess it up. Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts.
I have no idea what you just said.
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On July 06 2011 19:10 4kmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 17:30 King of Town wrote:On July 06 2011 02:02 4kmonk wrote:On July 06 2011 01:35 ForTheDr3am wrote:On July 06 2011 00:55 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 22:03 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 20:49 King of Town wrote:On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry? No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3. Wait what? You can spend all your money on three warpgates if you go stalker heavy (1z2s). Which, vs 4gate, you should. And the 3-gate economy is better. Right? So how does he overrun you? With zealot/sentry off 1 gas? This build gets 8 units at 5:50. A normal 4 gate will have 3 units at 5:40. This means that at 6:00 you will be outnumbered 11 to 8 and at 6:20 you will be outnumbered 15 to 11. You will not spend all your money even with perfect chornoboosts with 22 probes on 2 gas with 3 warpgates. I don't follow. Maybe I'm missing something since I'm not a high level player. I think warpgates have a 28-32 second cooldown depending on unit summoned, not 20. And I'm only getting about 700 minerals and 200 gas per minute from 22probe/2gas, which comes down to 4 stalkers and 2 zealots per minute (2 cycles). And then I don't even have money to build pylons. Or chrono's on gates. It only requires tight play. From a 20probe/1gas you should get only 100 gas per minute, and 30-50 minerals more per minute. So that would be 2 stalkers 4-5 zealots per minute. Again without money for pylons. So 3gate starts with a unit more. Warpgate tech finishes 7 seconds after a 4gate with 5 chrono's. 3gate spends 175 minerals on economy, while 4gate spends 150 minerals on a warpgate. And after transforming all money is spent on fighting units. I just don't see how 4gate could ever catch up, let alone overrrun. Except of course for the short 7 second timing windows between his warp cycles and yours, where he temporarily has 2 units more than you. I must be missing something crucial. How does 4gate have more money? Please explain it to me. You are right about one thing, having 15 units at 6:20 is impossible. The problem is rather that you can't spend all your money on only 3 Warpgates even with only Stalkers. I don't know whether you can theoretically do so with perfect chronoboosting when you don't build Pylons and Probes, but even if you can, it is unrealistic to do so because the micro is very intensive. More importantly, you actually do need Zealots, or the other player can chase your Stalkers with his Zealots while focusing them down with his lower number of Stalkers and send 1-2 Zealots into your mineralline meanwhile. Yea, this. I fixed my warpgate timings in my original response. But i'd also like to add that you can actually fully support 4 gates for the first 2 waves of warpins with the standard 4 gate build. This is because you hardly spend any money between the time when you add the 4 gates and when you warp in your first wave of stalkers. On a map like talderim where even one unit difference matters, you can't afford to get 3 gates. However, instead of taking our word for it, why don't you try it out? You'll see much more clearly if you do that. Allright, I see your point. I tried again this morning with the TL;DR build and I can definitely spend my money on 1zealot/2stalker warps. Don't even need chronoboost. And of course when you 3gate on 1 gas you have to get your gateways earlier, which requires you to skip your first zealot. But then you definitely don't get overrun as you can spend 5 chrono's on warpgate (so same timing) and have 6 stalkers 2 zealots right after. So perfect play would in both cases get you a bigger army. But when I have to micro I do mess it up. Like I said, I'm not very good so I thought it was just bad players like me having trouble to keep up macroing while microing. Apparently the pro's do it, too. Still surprises me, that they'd choose to have less economy/army just for easier macro. Like you say, every unit counts. I have no idea what you just said.
I said with good macro you can make as many units with 3 gates as with 4, even without any chronoboost on warpgates.
I also said it's easier to macro if you make 4, so you can pay more attention to micro with 4gate. So you're right about that.
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On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve.
I'm online now, coLrsvp.138
On behalf of everyone who has ever read a roymarthup strategy forum post,
Thank you.
On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas
16 pylon
17 core
19 gate
20 stalker, warpgate
22 two stalkers
26 two gates
26 proxy pylon
5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot
Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker
If it has the exact same outcome as conventional 4gate (down to the number of probes and number of gases) and the OP is designed to beat a conventional 4gate, how does this version of the 3 stalker build come out ahead of it?!
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United States8476 Posts
Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds.
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Germany2762 Posts
excellent guide and writeup! i will try this for sure when i get the time to play a bit more again 
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On July 06 2011 21:04 4kmonk wrote:
Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds.
Regarding the 3 stalker build, I indeed get a stalker instead of a sentry as third unit. The 3 stalker into 4gate build does not hit at the same time as a 4 gate as you've spent at least one extra chronoboost on your first stalker. If he is "3s into 4 gate"-ing, your zealot + 2 stalker force should be strong enough to push the proxy probe back so he doesn't warp in units right at your ramp. At that point, you really just need to warp in a sentry and 2 stalkers instead of 3 stalkers to be safe against 4 gate. If you're on the EU server, we can test that.
I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this.
Zealot or not in blink builds is really all about preference. If you're going for a slightly delayed blink build like mine, the zealot is still very good defensively, and has it's use vs early pressure/cheese in particular. Eventually you'll run out of gas or want to get aditional tech (robo for observers), and have to make zealots anyways.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:32 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 21:04 4kmonk wrote:
Ok, I actually finally read most of this thread and I have more comments. First of all the replay you have of your opponent doing a 4 gate isn't optimal as he's actually late on his warping by around 10 seconds. You might want a new replay =P.
Also, I don't believe the OP is aware of the 4 gate version that looks exactly like a 3 stalker rush but hits at the exact same time and with the exact same units as a standard 4 gate. Thus, you can't skip the sentry if you scout that 3 stalker rush. Although I do believe that's posted directly above this is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure you need to add your 3rd and 4th gate before your 2nd and 3rd stalker.
However, you'll be glad to know that the 3 stalker rush build is actually somewhat outdated, because high level protoss have figured out to just steal the gas vs this build and then do a safe build vs 4 gate that also get an early gas, such as your build. Most top protoss have instead favored the 2nd gas into 2nd gate into 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry build instead. That last part was a bit of a tangent <.<.
I'd also like to echo the sentiment that not all blink builds get a zealot first. In fact, many times, the zealot is detrimental.
Finally, you've inspired me to write 2 guides on pvp, one of them being my version of the 3 gate opening, which is a combination of mymsase/mouzmana's 3 gate opening and ogsmc's 3 gate opening, if anyone is familiar with those builds. I will also include your build in my first guide and compare and contrast the 4 builds. Regarding the 3 stalker build, I indeed get a stalker instead of a sentry as third unit. The 3 stalker into 4gate build does not hit at the same time as a 4 gate as you've spent at least one extra chronoboost on your first stalker. If he is "3s into 4 gate"-ing, your zealot + 2 stalker force should be strong enough to push the proxy probe back so he doesn't warp in units right at your ramp. At that point, you really just need to warp in a sentry and 2 stalkers instead of 3 stalkers to be safe against 4 gate. If you're on the EU server, we can test that. I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this. Zealot or not in blink builds is really all about preference. If you're going for a slightly delayed blink build like mine, the zealot is still very good defensively, and has it's use vs early pressure/cheese in particular. Eventually you'll run out of gas or want to get aditional tech (robo for observers), and have to make zealots anyways.
You don't have to chorno the first stalker with a 3 stalker build. Also, I don't have an EU account. I can probably borrow one later on though.
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Sure you don't have to chronoboost, but that makes you even less safe against 4 gate builds. If you don't chrono the stalker, I also have more time to stay in your base and check if you're taking a second gas or not. There's really no point in opening 3 stalkers if you're not going to take an early gas or get early map presence.
But like you said, the gas stealing idea should solve this problem, I'll be looking into that.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:53 Geiko wrote:
Sure you don't have to chronoboost, but that makes you even less safe against 4 gate builds. If you don't chrono the stalker, I also have more time to stay in your base and check if you're taking a second gas or not. There's really no point in opening 3 stalkers if you're not going to take an early gas or get early map presence.
But like you said, the gas stealing idea should solve this problem, I'll be looking into that.
I don't really care about this argument but, not chornoboosting your first stalker doesn't really affect how safe you are vs 4 gate. That just means your 3 stalkers finish 5 seconds later than normal. Normally, if you chornoboost your first stalker your 2nd gateway finishes 5 seconds into the 2nd stalker's build time. If you don't chornoboost the first stalker, your 2nd gateway finishes 5 seconds before the first stalker finishes. So thus it's not that huge of a difference.
Also your opponent can take his gas and then cancel when your probe leaves for almost no cost to him.
But again, not really an issue cause you can gas steal.
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On July 06 2011 03:39 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 03:14 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 18:37 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 12:56 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 12:11 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:59 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:40 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:
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False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate. we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about. im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If you want to do a test how about you test yourself and get out of diamond first. (I'm usually not this mean but seriously, what you're suggesting deserves a strat forum ban). There will never be a situation in PvP where you have a cy core and want to skip warpgate research. i will throw down 20 dollars on a PvP bo3 showmatch with you if you want to insult me lol i did a 50 dollar showmatch with a grandmaster zerg 3 weeks ago. i paid him the money when he won. you can pm him and ask him about it to know im not bsing heres how it will work. if you win, you get 20 dollars. if you lose, you lose nothing but your pride How about this, if I win instead of $20 you get a strat forum ban? I can't actually ban you but I'm sure Saracen or others would approve. I'm online now, coLrsvp.138 i just got back home. we can do this in a couple days or so. or whenever were both not busy. how about this. saracen knows who i am. if i lose, i dont get "banned" however i am no longer allowed to post in the strat forum, and if i make another post in the strat forum then saracen knows me and he bans me the reason i challenged you is because you talked like i am such a low calibur player and i shouldnt be speaking. soooo i figured meh im pretty sure im not a low calibur player (im not super good, but i beat masters all the time so i know i dont suck) and id be willing to play a bo3 with you if you want to see that you shouldnt be so quick to judge but yeah totally. im all up for it. sure we can play a bo3 PvP some time soon and if i lose i am no longer allowed in the strats forum (and ill also give you 20 bucks if you want, if i lose) here will be the rules for the PvP bo3. there are no rules. treat it like a ladder game. Im not trying to show what beats a 4gate or anything (which is what i was talking about earlier) im not doing this to prove what can beat a 4gate or anything, i challenged you because of you talking like im a low calibur player. so thats what this bo3 is about. so the purpose of this bo3 is not to prove some kind of strategy or anything, its just for me to show i dont suck lol. so the rules of this PvP bo3 is we can treat it like a ladder game, no rules, but the map rules can be we start on taldar arim and after that loser picks map (mlg metal, mlg shakuras, taldar arim, and mlg shattered are map options) Regardless of how good or bad you are, you made a bold claim that was not backed by any evidence (warpgate is not needed if you're playing defensively), so I called you out on it. You tried to argue your claim but your logic was poor, so I called you out on your incorrect assumptions. Then you tried to use your personal experience to back up your claim, so I called you out on your personal experience since it is at the diamond level. TeamLiquid has high expectations, and although diamond may be top 20% of battle.net, it's considered low caliber here. It doesn't matter that you've beaten masters players, even if you were masters and you made such a claim as this one I would still call you out for it. Personally I'd rather play 4 gate against your 3 gate no-warpgate robo, because I'm more interested in validating strategy than "challenging" you. I don't have anything personal against you. But if you'd rather just do a regular bo3 then that's up to you (hint: I'm most likely going to 4 gate you anyway). I'm usually online weekdays 8pm-2am EST. Message me whenever. heyy brahski im serious if you want 20 bucks if you win i can give that to you. im a 23 year old dude that mooches off my rich parents and they give me tons of cash whenever i want so i dont care if i lose 20 bucks in a bo3 match. if you could benefit from 20 dollars like buying some subway or something then i dont mind putting 20 dollars on the match. its up 2 you you can decide when the match is over if you want 20 we start on taldar arim which is a 4gate map and how about this. I really do believe a defensive 4gate doesnt need warpgates and i normally wait a while to upgrade warpgates on taldar arim in order to pump out more units. so in the first game, i guess we will be able to test if a delayed warpgate upgrade can defend itself against a normal 4gate sure ill msg u when i see u online if we are both not busy we can do the bo3 then put replays in this thread if ppl wanna see um
The plot thickens.
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On July 06 2011 21:32 Geiko wrote:
I've never really tried gas stealing in answer to 3s rush, I suppose it is doable, would appreciate any replays you have of this.
It's soooo strong. because if you skip the zealot it takes forever to take the gas down.
from that point you (the gas stealer) have two options:
if he tries to take down the assimilator you can still go for the hardcore 4 gate, because he is not on the map with his stalkers (the whole point of the 3 stalker rush).
He can't warp-in sentries, because he is low on gas (the original 3 stalker rush featured a second gas right when the first stalker had driven away your opponent's scouting probe). even if he defensive 4 gates, you are ahead on warpgatetech and gateway timing and should be able to break him. if he goes for 3 gates/2 gate robo he will die for sure.
or you can just take your second gas and play defensive. if he doesnt kill your assimilator, you know for sure he will all-in you, but because he didn't open in mind with a hardcore 4 gate (probably more chrono on probes), you can easily defend it with 4 gates of your own + the gas steal and taking your own second gas.
that's why I'm currently using a slightly different 3 stalker rush build. you get your second gas at 19 and second gateway at 20. no chrono on first stalker though, but on 2nd and 3rd. up to the second gas at 19 its just the same bo as against zerg and looks extremely greedy in a pvp. but because 4 gates are so easily scoutable thanks to the patch, you know for sure when it's coming. so you basically just leave one probe in the second gas and go 2 Gate -> 4 Gate. I personally build my 3rd and 4th gateway at the ramp (like naniwa did at mlg with his blink stalker build).
you have 5 stalkers when the 4 gater has 1 zealot and 6 stalkers. but you have the wall-in and your gateways transforming just right about when he goes up your ramp.
I love that you can deny a proxy pylon with the 3 stalkers, but you don't die instantly when you don't succeed with it. as long as the first proxy pylon is not built by a sneaky probe right beneath your ramp, your in a good position to defend it.
if the other player sees what you are doing and reacts with chronoboost on probes and second gas himself, just skip the 20 gate and go for a 1 gate tech build. you are a little ahead now.
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OK, I've tested out this build and it only seems to work if the OTHER protoss is the aggressor or if you go robo. If the toss is even remotely good, and goes for robo instead of 4 gate, you're screwed. Blink DOES NOT beat robo play. If you try to snipe the colossus, you are inviting your stalkers to be attacked by the remaining stalkers/zealots while your opponent micros his colossus. Granted, you will most likely kill the colossus, but it's a pyrrhic victory because you lose a lot of stalkers in the process. So this strat is not bad, but only if you follow it up with robo instead of twilight council.
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On July 07 2011 03:09 djqlue wrote:
OK, I've tested out this build and it only seems to work if the OTHER protoss is the aggressor or if you go robo. If the toss is even remotely good, and goes for robo instead of 4 gate, you're screwed. Blink DOES NOT beat robo play. If you try to snipe the colossus, you are inviting your stalkers to be attacked by the remaining stalkers/zealots while your opponent micros his colossus. Granted, you will most likely kill the colossus, but it's a pyrrhic victory because you lose a lot of stalkers in the process. So this strat is not bad, but only if you follow it up with robo instead of twilight council.
This build is more about the opening rather than the blink play. Blink can beat robo. You're just not playing blink correctly.
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EPT
