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On July 05 2011 02:51 CecilSunkure wrote:[ This build would will give you no map presence, and if I see a sentry that early I won't be thinking "I need to hurry up and attack him before he gets his defensive position". I'm thinking "Lets lay down a free Twilight Council and keep total reign over the middle of the map", or something to that effect. You have no offensive potential, and an opponent can lay down an earlier tech structure than you and get an advantage. For example what if I open with an early second assimilator and I see you got a sentry so early, and a later assimilator? I'm definitely going to be controlling the middle of the map looking for proxy pylons everywhere while taking very early tech. What would happen vs the common 3 Stalker opening? They'd have map presence, free reign around the map, an earlier second gas and thusly better economy, more Stalkers, and earlier Blink (or tech of choice). My conclusion is that this build can be good in a single situation (where the enemy ram's their face into you with early offense), but that's it. It doesn't have a solid game plan, doesn't have any deviations depending on information revealed, and doesn't have a way to keep the opponent in check early game. Edit: Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 18:41 Geiko wrote:
Double FF the choke, warp in 3 stalkers, and kill off the units. But is this still true with perfect micro in GM league ? GM league players have faaaaar from perfect micro.
I'll answer to the ninja edit (three above paragraphs).
A lot of misunderstanding regarding this build I think.
How are you seing my sentry ?
What's wrong with letting a couple of units (3 stalkers) in the middle of the map from 5:00 to 6:00 ?
What's wrong with letting a couple of stalkers around the map from 7:00 (time when earliest blink finishes) to 8:15 (time when your blink finishes) ? That is to say, what's so bad about having blink 1 minute later if you stay in your base ? Is my opponent going to do something to the xelnaga towers when I'm not looking ? The important part about blink vs blink is stalker count, and I won't be behind on that.
You seem to miss the point of the build which is to counter a straight up 4 gate build. If you are going to take your gas at some crazy early timing, I won't be making a sentry... Same if I see you going for the three stalker rush which is the easiest thing in the book to scout. Some people have said that you can make a blink stalker rush and still 4 gate, first of all that's not true if you are chrono boosting your stalker, second of all, I can also cancel my gas and 4 gate myself with one chrono boost less, how is that any different ?
You're also wrong about the part where 3 stalker rush gets an earlier second gas, as a matter of fact my gas is 15 seconds earlier than a 3 stalker rush.
Regarding the fact that it has no early aggression possibility and no map control, maybe you missed the fact that I can have 6 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry at your ramp at 6:25 and total map control from 6:00 to 7:00. And total map control from 6:00 to much later if he isn't going blink.
I'd love to hear some clarifications on your point of view because we are not understanding each other well 
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On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote:
There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me.
I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity.
Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive.
CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame.
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This is a solid build. No it’s not 100% failproof. No it isn’t revolutionary, and no it will not change PvP. But yes, it does what it says it does, and it’s a great option to have in your arsenal of PvP builds.
I think what most people are missing here is the fact that you can’t immediately scout the sentry. You can only scout that sentry with a 1z/1s poke, but this build gets the 1z/1s the same time you do, and your forces will meet somewhere in the middle of the map. As a 4 gater, you can’t just run for your opponent’s ramp and try to place your initial proxy pylons right under their ramp, because that’s suicide against most builds. So while yes, getting the sentry will have trouble defending against a 4 gate where the initial proxy pylon is placed right below your ramp, that’s not going to happen unless your opponent is dumb or just blindly lucky/reckless.
Also, on most maps that second stalker from the 4 gater is not going to make it to the other ramp in time to defend the proxy pylons that are getting set up there, even if you start the 2nd stalker before the 3 additional gateways. Maybe it’s possible on close air metal, I’m not sure, but the majority of maps that stalker is going to join the battle way too late for it to make a big difference.
When playing this build against a greedy tech build, you don’t need to follow this build exactly. You can skip your sentry, you don’t have to cut probes, you can get your tech building earlier, etc.
When comparing this build against the 3 stalker build for defending against 4 gates, both have their sleight disadvantages and advantages. Both will put you at a great advantage against a 4 gate, effectively “countering” it, but neither is 100% safe and it will ultimately come down to micro. Basically it’s personal preference. The main feature about this build that I like over the 3 stalker build is the fact that you get a zealot with this one. That initial zealot puts you at a little better position against unscouted cheese, it’s better for defending against a super early warpgate rush (10/11 gate), and if you’re ever poking up your opponent’s ramp to scout at any time (whether it’s with 1z/1s, or 1z many s), it’s always better to poke up with a zealot than risk losing a stalker to a FF.
My variation of this build is to actually start off exactly like a standard 12 gate 4 gate. I spend only 2 chronos on the nexus, and I won’t start my 2nd gas until after I’ve chased away the scouting probe. If I don’t see my opponent 4 gating, I either cancel my sentry or don’t even get a sentry. So against a tech build I’ll be technically behind in gas, but effectively ahead since I did not make any sentries.
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On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote:
There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame.
Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^
3 stalker rush = no sentry for me.
No point in comparing your pure blink stalker build to a build I won't be doing against it.
Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658
where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry).
A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well.
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On July 05 2011 09:13 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote:
There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame. Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^ 3 stalker rush = no sentry for me. Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry). A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well.
Dude, look at that thread you just linked, I helped Cecil work out the build order, I'm IN THE OP LOL.
A zealot is mandatory in blink play? wtf? Why can't that role be replaced by a stalker that can blink back down or provide vision depending on how safe it is to attack up the ramp? I feel like I'm talking to someone who has never gone blink before.
I'm going to get temp banned if I keep talking to you tbh. If you like this build then all the power to you.
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On July 05 2011 09:20 CCalms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 09:13 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 09:04 CCalms wrote:On July 05 2011 01:50 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:20 CCalms wrote:On July 04 2011 20:34 blah_blah wrote:On July 04 2011 20:19 CCalms wrote:
safe vs 4gate, sure, but you are at a gross disadvantage against anyone who goes the equally safe 3stalker into tech. Your build uses three chronoboosts on probes, it doesnt even look like a 4gate :s I don't understand this post at all. If someone does the 3 stalker opening, it diverges from a 4gate opening quite early (double chrono on probes and early second gateway) at which point (upon scouting) you are no longer obligated to follow this build order at all. Someone doing a 3 stalker opening is much better for you than someone doing a 1gate tech build. OP: great post, thanks a lot. 9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 core 19 gate 20 stalker, warpgate 22 two stalkers 26 two gates 26 proxy pylon 5:42 warp in 3 stalker 1 zealot Same exact outcome as conventional 4gate despite opening 3stalker I don't know why people try and act like they know something that I don't LOL I brought up 3 stalker instead of a 1gate tech build because 3 stalker is 100% safe vs 4gate, as this build claims to be, but has a much better economy and allows for much more early game flexibility (3stalker can stop 10gate 4gates by following up the 3 stalkers with 2 stalkers instead of 2 sentries) and geiko, you obviously don't know how to 3 stalker properly. I absolutely do not need to kill the proxy, simply zone it away from my ramp. 10 starcraft meters away is absolutely fine with me. I can also use the early unit advantage to pick off units, which is helpful. try doing the 3 stalker opening, only chrono the first stalker and rest on warpgate. after the two stalkers are done (three total) start two sentries. warpgate will be done right when those are finished, warp in one stalker and one sentry. No warpgate rush can break you and you are free to tech. If you think I'm wrong or naive or don't have gm level pvp then feel free to pm me about it or play me at CCalms.951 On July 05 2011 01:11 Geiko wrote:On July 05 2011 01:02 sjschmidt93 wrote:
There is no safe PvP to be honest. Yeah this may hold a 4gate but if your opponent goes 1 gate robo or 1 gate council you're very very far behind. Their blink will finish much quicker than yours, and if they go robo they can easily expo no problem after colossus production kicks in.
If you expand, then they just 2 colossus no range push or 3 colossus w/ range push and your dead, unless you managed to squeeze in a robo and wanna go for the blink stalker/colossus base trade, but even then that game almost never works. Opponents going 1 gate council doesn't put me behind. Like I said, their blink will finish 1 minute earlier than mine, so what ? They still can't bust up my ramp if I am playing defensively. Against 1 gate robo, and colo timing pushes, they are still leaving their base open to a base trade situation. If I have taken a far away expansion I will come out ahead of the base trade. If they wait too long for their push, then my zealot archon + mass blink stalkers can win against 3,4 colo army. The blink harass style of play has nothing to do with your build, it only serves as the only real viable follow up (too much gas spent on stalkers to go into other tech efficiently). If someone else does a more intelligible blink build then you just die. All it takes is one less stalker early game (or two-four, in your build's case) to have the fight snowball into a one-sided blinkfest. If the other guy goes robo, it has absolutely nothing to do with your build but rather his ability to know how to deal with blink harass and set up an expansion and sim city. You're really mixing up two builds which are quite clearly reconizable. I believe the 3 stalker rush spends a lot of chronoboost on the stalkers while the build you are giving here that is supposed to hit a 5:42 timing obviously has all the chronoboost spent on warpgate. If you can't tell that a 3 stalker "rush" is late by 20 seconds, then clearly we are not playing at the same level. Also I would need you to explain to me why my build is 4 stalkers late ? That doesn't make any sense to me. I compared your build with my blink build and I get a significantly faster blink with more stalkers and no sentry or zealot. the sentry and zealot are completely useless in blink vs blink, because the only power that blink stalkers have is their longevity. Three stalker build only uses one chrono on first stalker. chronoboost each one is so stupid, there is no point, you will have all three out long before his second stalker is on your side of the map so punishing proxies is easy. Might as well get the fast warpgate and be able to transition into 4gate if needed. I've never seen a pro player open two gateways and chrono three times on gateways, that's beyond unintuitive. CLEARLY we're not playing on the same level LOL. If you want to try and insult my "level" then we can just try your build vs 19 gateway 20 gas opener and see that yours is unnecessarily safe and engendering a low-eco midgame. Do you even read what I answer or are you just doing your thing ? ^^ 3 stalker rush = no sentry for me. Regarding the chronoboosts, i was referring to this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192658where obvisouly pro players are using 3 chronoboosts on stalkers (but maybe you are on another level than them, sorry). A zealot is mandatory in blink play if you're going to try to go up my ramp as well. Dude, look at that thread you just linked, I helped Cecil work out the build order, I'm IN THE OP LOL. A zealot is mandatory in blink play? wtf? Why can't that role be replaced by a stalker that can blink back down or provide vision depending on how safe it is to attack up the ramp? I feel like I'm talking to someone who has never gone blink before. I'm going to get temp banned if I keep talking to you tbh. If you like this build then all the power to you.
Did you purposefully give out a wrong BO in the thread then so you could have an edge on people ? ^^
It says right here : "Note: Every single stalker has one chronoboost, the sentry has one chronoboost, and the immortal has two chronoboost. Only two initial chronoboosts are spent on the Nexus."
All the pro replays I have seen include the offensive blink player sending in a zealot or 2 to tank damage and gain vision. This is justified by the fact that you are eventually going to run out of gas and tanking with a zealot (which has longer longevity than a stalker vs stalker / immortals ) is a good thing. Going up the ramp with one stalker will give you vision for exactly 0.5 seconds before it gets either shot down, or blinked back.
Seriously though, no need to get angry like that, we're just discussing a starcraft build. And yes I have played with blink, no I don't play at super high level, but yes I've beaten some top master, and some GM players with blink play.
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Looks a very well-thought out and well-described build, but I feel better about just going 3 gate robo.
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On July 05 2011 09:34 Cloud9157 wrote:
Looks a very well-thought out and well-described build, but I feel better about just going 3 gate robo.
Isn't this a 3gate robo build?
._.
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Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry?
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United States8476 Posts
I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though:
1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 05 2011 10:11 iTzAnglory wrote:
Would this work on Tal' Darim if you possibly get another Stalker instead of a Sentry?
No, your opponent will eventually run you over with 4 gates over 3.
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i think theres a way to skip warpgate research, get slightly faster gateways, and use all chrono on the gateways to get out even more units and then since you didnt spend 50/50 on warpgates, it means your robo only costs essentially 150/50, pretty darn cheap.
or look at it this way. your enemy spends 200/50 on his 4th gateway + warpgates, you spend 200/100 on your robo.
now you are in a position where your enemy has 4 gates, and you have 3gates + robo, and since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter. all of your money off 1base can easily be consumed by 3gate+robo
try work on a build like that. it should be able to defend a 4gate just fine and be more powerful against a toss that opened 2gate robo
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On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
i think theres a way to skip warpgate research, get slightly faster gateways, and use all chrono on the gateways to get out even more units and then since you didnt spend 50/50 on warpgates, it means your robo only costs essentially 150/50, pretty darn cheap.
or look at it this way. your enemy spends 200/50 on his 4th gateway + warpgates, you spend 200/100 on your robo.
now you are in a position where your enemy has 4 gates, and you have 3gates + robo, and since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter. all of your money off 1base can easily be consumed by 3gate+robo
try work on a build like that. it should be able to defend a 4gate just fine and be more powerful against a toss that opened 2gate robo
Wasn't there a 3 Gate Build similar to what you're talking about? "5 Zealots 8 Stalkers".
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On July 05 2011 11:04 4kmonk wrote:
I like the build. It's pretty well thought out and obviously has been refined a bit.
3 constructive criticisms I have about this build though:
1. You're so close to being able to fake a 4 gate. Why not spend one less chorno on probes and let your opponent know that there's still a threat of 4 gate?
2. It seems like if your opponent is faking a 4 gate, you have no choice but to make 6 stalkers if you want to hope to be safe. This is compared to a few other 3 gate builds that defend 4 gate that I know which can defend 4 gate with a minimal initial investment of 3-4 stalkers. I'm not saying that other builds can defend and don't require you to have 6 stalkers initially. I feel a 6 stalker investment almost locks you into blink stalker play.
3. Another thing is that with this build, I feel like your tech structure, ie robo, twilight, stargate, is very delayed compared to some other builds. This vastly reduces the effectiveness of both robo and stargate, particularly stargate and is another reason your build heavily favors blink play.
Hehe, those were my exact criticisms as well. I commented about #1 in my earlier post, and about #2 and #3, you're completely right - in the first version of this guide, it was only designed to follow up with blink stalkers and blink stalkers is indeed the best transition. I think the point is though that in certain circumstances where robo may be better (i.e. close positions on some maps, or your opponent has a history of going DTs), it's still "ok" to go robo after the 3 gate opening after this build. Or when you face an obviously-not-4 gate, you can easily go robo or stargate much earlier and not be behind.
On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter
False.
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On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False.
Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)? Can you explain please?
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On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False.
true to an extent
3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point
lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo
4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas
3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas
both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment
however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately
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On July 05 2011 11:31 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)?
With warpgate against non-warpgate, the warpgate user will always have an additional cycle of units more than the non-warpgate user. Being on the defensive or aggressive side is irrelevant due to warpgates and proxy pylons.
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On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately
No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate.
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On July 05 2011 11:35 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:31 iChau wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. Is it because a Warpgate-user can churn out units faster (especially with chronoboost)? With warpgate against non-warpgate, the warpgate user will always have an additional cycle of units more than the non-warpgate user. Being on the defensive or aggressive side is irrelevant due to warpgates and proxy pylons.
but that only matters for the first fight, and the warpgate user only has about 20 seconds before chronoboosted production of the 3gate/robo player gives him his defense, and then you have to consider the warpgater would have to micro back to his proxy pylon in order to benefit from his reinforcements thus creating the same scenario. but you also have to consider the 3gate robo user can chrono out 1-2 more units insteadof spending the 50/50 and chrono on his warpgates, meaning the warpgater only probably has 2-3 bonus units max which wont win the fight against immortals
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On July 05 2011 11:37 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 11:33 roymarthyup wrote:On July 05 2011 11:28 Anihc wrote:On July 05 2011 11:08 roymarthyup wrote:
since you are being defensive, warpgates dont matter False. true to an extent 3 warpgates and 3 gateways can produce essentially the same amount of units per minute, the warpgate has 5 seconds less buildtime per unit, but once you have 4 buildings all of your 1base income is used up with time to spare so those 5 seconds dont matter at that point lets compare 4 warpgates VS 3gates+robo 4 warpgates cost 650 minerals, 50 gas 3gate/robo costs 650 minerals, 100 gas both of these can consume 100% of a one base economy. this means other than the first battle where the warpgate player gets to warp in units and have a slight edge while his enemy is building, the 3gate/robo player is actually equal in production to the 4gate player other than that first moment however, if you consider the 3gate player could use all his chrono on gates he could theoretically pop out 1-2 extra units while the enemy is spending that 50/50 on warpgates. soo in the end the difference is small, but one player gets to have immortals, so he should win the game ultimately No, 100% false. You're missing the part of warpgate where you get the unit 5 seconds after you pay for it, versus ~30 seconds build time for non-warpgate.
we should do a test. i beat 4gate all the time with 3gate robo and i normally dont get warpgates for a while in order to get the faster robo
yes, you are right warpgates have a small advantage. i am saying that the advantage is so small it almost doesnt matter at all in a real game. you can play me if you want to see what im talking about.
im some situations i can see skipping warpgate research in PvP as being a good idea. defensive 3gate/robo being one of those situations. in that situation, the warpgate money is wasted
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EPT
