EPTSpeedroaches with attack upgrade supported by speedlings to do flanks and surrounds would do well against this, alternatively roach/infestor or even ling/infestor. Pure roach, or ling/hydra, would be in the worst spot ever against an allin like this.
[D] KiWiKaKi's 7 gate +2 attack blink stalker PvZ - Page 2
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
Speedroaches with attack upgrade supported by speedlings to do flanks and surrounds would do well against this, alternatively roach/infestor or even ling/infestor. Pure roach, or ling/hydra, would be in the worst spot ever against an allin like this. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
MC did a very similiar style against July in the GSL finals, that are what, 2.5 months old? This 2 base timing has been around for a long time, AcE has done it vs FD in g2 and against Sen twice in a row, LoveTT did it against NesTea on Metalopolis etc.etc.etc. You can fend this off with ling roach if you have a macro advantage (able to drone up freely off 3 base and then produce off 4 hatches), if the map allows for it (i.e. the protoss has to run away and you can chase him down with lings and cant abuse a cliff, examples are Taldarim, Testbug, Terminus RE) Something that can also work on such (open) maps is a metric shitton of speedroach with 2-0 asap, because he can blink all he wants, youre still one shotting multiple stalkers everytime he engages and your army has a combined 7000 HP. On any other maps (which are sadly, most of them) you have to make infestors to trade him efficiently. If there is any kind of map-abuse possible where you can't properly engage Infestors are an absolute must. Creep spread is insanely important. SPREAD CREEP Of course, if he's dumb and doesn't make an observer press 6-B and collect the free win. | ||
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kyneS
United States44 Posts
It's also not an all-in, hydra's don't counter blink stalker with +2. Also you can transition to archon, or even take a third and go collosus sentry while building up. | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
Also stalkers and hydras are very even units, and when you add in good stalker micro, it can even favor the stalkers. However if he goes hydra ling, you better not get flanked or surrounded by the lings, or else it will end badly. Really the only reason anyone would go hydra ling is only if they scouted what you were doing. | ||
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tdynasty
Canada220 Posts
With blink micro in the early game, it really offers alot of strength to deal damage. For me, I use this type of pressure alot. I started off with a 7gate lots of sentries with +1 with a mix of lot/stalkers. I like blink alot. But sentries also can really dominate without any significant amount of banelings or hydras. I haven't actually tried a 7gate blink push. Since I so heavily favor sentry play. However in 2v2 I absolutely love blink stalkers off 2 bases with + wep upgrade. It's amazing in many situations, against all races. Overall. If well executed this is one of those builds that zerg has to respect and defend against it specifically. It feels like a 4 gate as In you probably are gonna want proxy pylons. But zerg CAN defend this. However it's a strong timing to deal with. I actually prefer this as oppose to colossus Timing. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Roach/infestor, roach/ling/infestor, or even ling/infestor will work well, as long as zerg has enough FG to keep the stalkers from blinking until they're dead. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On June 10 2011 23:26 GreEny K wrote: In one of the last battles where MC had 40 or so stalkers and idra was pushing at his main choke, he did not have DT's. Yes he did. by the end of the fight he had 4 DTs. DL the replay and watch it before you make assumptions. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
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FenneK
France1231 Posts
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fadestep
United States605 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:01 ecaesar wrote: hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra? but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something 1 match =/= actual facts. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Eesh... | ||
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On June 11 2011 03:55 Umpteen wrote: Let me get this straight: Six gate I have to go burrowed roaches, 7 gate blink I mustn't? Eesh... just see if they get robo or not. and most of the time when they're going 6 gate they're not going to take both gases at their natural, so if you see 3 gate expo but no gas, tech up to burrow move and prepare for a 6 gate timing. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On June 11 2011 03:55 Umpteen wrote: Let me get this straight: Six gate I have to go burrowed roaches, 7 gate blink I mustn't? Eesh... most of the time, "6 gate" means a timing attack where you cut probes, and attack with stalker/sentry/zealot army timed to hit before mutas are out or critical mass of hydras are made. This thread refers to a 2 base allin attack. The # of gates is more or less arbitrary, I'm sure you could do this build with only 6 gates as well. The important thing is that: -you have a mostly stalker-based army on 2 bases -you time the attack to hit right as +2 attack & blink finishes | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On June 10 2011 23:51 kyneS wrote: This strategy was popular in china about a month and a half ago, it was widely used by most of the chinese protosses. It's the standard PvZ strat over there. ACE and MC and a bunch of korean protosses use it too. It's also not an all-in, hydra's don't counter blink stalker with +2. Also you can transition to archon, or even take a third and go collosus sentry while building up. The most successful way of playing this style of PvZ that I've seen is the 7 gate blink stalker push with 50-55 worker count at around minute 12 (you move out earlier around minute 10, but you don't really start committing till 12). Start off with nexus first or FFE if possible (you can do nexus first on xel'naga with 15 nexus 15 forge and 2 canons), otherwise do 3 gate sentry. The basic order of what you should do is first expand and then slowly build up your production structures while defending and upgrading. (using any of the 3 openers). I. OPENING If you do FFE or nexus first, you should form a wall using a forge, gate, core, and then have 2 canons (or 1 on certain maps). Take both gasses in your base before your core finishes. The exact timing benchmarks if your econ is not damaged is as follows: at around 6:40 you need to lay down your 3 extra gates (this should be after you have enough minerals after the core goes down), then at 6:55 you should have enough minerals for 2 assimilators at your expansion, and you can begin +1 attack at your forge. If you can't meet those benchmarks for gate, core, gas, gas, +3 gates, +2 gas at natural , and +1 weapons research, you probably need to modify your early game builds. II. MOVING OUT (8+ min usually) You should have atleast 6+ sentries and a good amount of stalkers/zealots (dependent on how confident you are) before moving out. If you feel like the game is going well and your macro has been up to par to your opponent, move out at this point and try to gain some map control. As soon as you move out, build a templar council and begin researching BLINK shortly after. Take a proxy pylon hopefully at a xel'naga tower or at a choke where the zerg can't do runbys and make this your "base away from home" and try to bait him into engaging you and back off and cut off some of his roaches with force fields. This will force him to think more and macro less. However, don't do any SERIOUS fights since you only have 4 gates. You don't actually have to engage in these small skirmishes, but against better players you increase the amount of uncertainty for the zerg. At 9:15 you should have around 75 supply. +2 should begin around 10 minutes (80+ supply) in an ideal game. III. FINISHING and pushing with blink and observer After your blink has begun (this should be around 9:30)throw down a robo, and 3 more gates for a total of 7 gates. Your observer should be leaving as blink finishes (blin should finish between 11:30 and 11:45), and you warp in 7 stalkers each round. You should be able to do this with around 55 probes. Push him hard at 12 minutes and aggresively using good blink stalker micro and reinforcements from your proxy pylon. Continue to force field and use guardian shield. If when you move out you see a bunch of lings, make zealots along with stalkers to help win skirmishes until blink is done. After that dump all resources into stalkers until you have no more gas, then use zealots as a gas dump (though in my experience with 55 probes and 4 gas's being mined you should not run out of gas for the most part if you are dumping money into pylons). I'd say you run out of gas on alternate warp-ins, when you do so, dump minerals into zealots. ************************** For the 3 gate sentry expand, the order of building production structures is a little different. The progression of production structures is as follows: 3 gate to 5 gate, and then start TC , then start blink, then make a robo + 2 more gates. Move out and make mass blink stalkers. For replays look up Ace vs Sen in the Starwars and also LoveTT vs Fruidealer (can't remember if it was FD or not) There's no such thing as a "best" way to do it. The attack timings and worker cut-off should be based off of what you scout in that same game. If you want to play blind and roll the dice then I would recommend a faster push with no robo and only +1, of course this means you have to put down your twilight earlier. | ||
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kenkaze291
United States92 Posts
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Rupyness
52 Posts
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BlACKTrA
Germany187 Posts
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HairyProboscis
Canada63 Posts
On June 11 2011 06:25 BlACKTrA wrote: many People dont realize a Stalker und a Hydra are exact the same, they kill each other in the direct fight, Roaches are much stronger, and cheaper :O They also attack much slower and have a shorter range, making blink micro a hard counter to roaches. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
On June 11 2011 06:42 iokke wrote: Thanks for all the informative posts, will have to check this out. PvZ is prolly my favorite match up despite the fact that I've been struggling lately Mine too, so whenever I see a pretty strong strategy I get excited. I did a (horrifically botched) push like this one yesterday on ladder on Tal'Darim, and even when he nydused me I could defend pretty effectively and just destroyed him before he could get enough infesters to kill me. I also brought along a warp prism to avoid having lings kill my reinforcement pylons. | ||
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