|
So I saw last night's NASL match between KiWi and Vibe; and in game 2 on Backwater Gulch KiWi did an amazing timing attack (all in???) vs Vibe right around the the time plus 2 attack finished and he had 7 warp gates off of 2 bases with a couple of observers to help manage creep and burrowed roaches.
It seems pretty solid and from a theorycrafting point of view very easy to transition into either from a 3 gate expo, FFE, 15 Nexus or plain old 2 gate robo expand, adding the observer makes it a lot more potent vs roaches and removes one of the main weaknesses from the traditional 6 gate plus 1 attack timing push.
Would anyone else like to comment or discuss this? Some weaknesses you may find (besides the fact that you need very good micro to make the best of it)? Some reason not to use it, possible transitions, etc?
I for one would very much like to practice it and see how well it does on ladder.
|
hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
|
On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote:
hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra?
but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something
|
As with all the two base all-ins PvZ, this build is incredibly strong against a late third base, but gets completed dominated by a losira style early third with delayed lair. Hydras are probably not necessary for the defense; I would assume that 3 base roach/ling can hold, though it depends on how many sentries kiwikaki makes.
I might post again after watching some of kiwikaki's replays from MLG.
|
On June 10 2011 12:01 ecaesar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote:
hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra? but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something
MC also had a few DTs in that fight buddy.
Strategy seems like a pain in the butt to deal with though. I havent seen the game but i assume it would be very easy for protoss to do alot of harass and not necessarily engage,. by blink ng to main ect.
|
The real strength of this is that KiWi hit before Vibe could have a scary amount of Hydras.
And iirc, he had like 5 sentries the first time he hit to force field and retreat if necessary.
|
On June 10 2011 12:06 PJA wrote:
As with all the two base all-ins PvZ, this build is incredibly strong against a late third base, but gets completed dominated by a losira style early third with delayed lair. Hydras are probably not necessary for the defense; I would assume that 3 base roach/ling can hold, though it depends on how many sentries kiwikaki makes.
This sums it up perfectly. I've been doing this exact strategy versus Zerg off of a FFE for months with great success. More recently however, I've been running into more and more Zergs taking an early third.
This build is becoming more and more of a gamble because if the Zerg does take an early third they have enough production to easily hold you off with pure Roach. On the other hand, if they take a later third but tech up faster (rushing to Burrow is very common) you'll have no problem stomping them. Even if they have a decent amount of Roaches with Burrow, you can merely abuse the mobility of Blink Stalkers to kill a Hatch or two and retreat.
This build is pretty all-in; if you don't straight up kill him you have to do significant damage and take a quick third in order to transition.
|
does anyone know the build order? i went hunting for his replays to see if i could find it and i couldnt if anyone can tell me where i can get one of the replays where he does this that would be great
|
The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
|
|
|
interesting...anyone have links to vods/replays?
people have apparently been doing the same build but also tossing in zlot/archon (open up with delayed dt harass or something).
|
Can't wait to hear more from Minigun!
Glgl
|
VOD is NASL week 9, Kiwi vs Vibe game 2 on Backwater Gulch. Seeing how it's protected content I can't post a link for the VOD and don't have access to the replay.
|
Sigh. Ace created this build, anyway.
Strong build but lack of scouting in the build makes it rather a dicey, although probably one of the strongest 2 base timings out there, if not the strongest with proper micro.
|
On June 10 2011 12:09 Mikelius wrote:
The real strength of this is that KiWi hit before Vibe could have a scary amount of Hydras.
And iirc, he had like 5 sentries the first time he hit to force field and retreat if necessary.
No, Vibe opened like infester and then a quick third. His build looked really week to every major 2 base timing. I think he even got infesters before he got his major roach upgrades....
|
I've played this against this build 4 or 5 times on ladder and I have absolutely no idea how to play against it. I've had a 65 drone economy with +1 melee and roach speed finished, but it doesn't seem matter. Roach/ling is sadly not cost efficient in a straight up fight against +2 blink stalker/sentry, since even if you manage to get a full surround and force extra forcefields you can feasibly not kill more than a few stalkers with equal cost armies. Your third tech needs to be infestors, and you need to go infestors as soon as your lair finishes and delay with ling counters as much as possible. If you go hydra, muta, or even baneling you should just die since the first two don't come out soon enough in numbers unless you skip roach, and banelings are largely negated by the 8+ sentries.
|
On June 10 2011 16:31 Exley wrote:
I've played this against this build 4 or 5 times on ladder and I have absolutely no idea how to play against it. I've had a 65 drone economy with +1 melee and roach speed finished, but it doesn't seem matter. Roach/ling is sadly not cost efficient in a straight up fight against +2 blink stalker/sentry, since even if you manage to get a full surround and force extra forcefields you can feasibly not kill more than a few stalkers with equal cost armies. Your third tech needs to be infestors, and you need to go infestors as soon as your lair finishes and delay with ling counters as much as possible. If you go hydra, muta, or even baneling you should just die since the first two don't come out soon enough in numbers unless you skip roach, and banelings are largely negated by the 8+ sentries.
There was a rep with Idra vs Cruncher, where Cruncher won G2 then IdrA absolutely smashed him in G3 knowing exactly what to do, I suggest watching that because I forgot what IdrA did.
|
On June 10 2011 12:07 ProperOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 12:01 ecaesar wrote:On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote:
hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra? but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something MC also had a few DTs in that fight buddy. Strategy seems like a pain in the butt to deal with though. I havent seen the game but i assume it would be very easy for protoss to do alot of harass and not necessarily engage,. by blink ng to main ect.
In one of the last battles where MC had 40 or so stalkers and idra was pushing at his main choke, he did not have DT's.
I have used a build similar to this before after doing a 14 nexus and then cannoning my front. I usually lose to infestor play or an early enough third that allows them to drone up before I can hit.
|
On June 10 2011 15:20 Shooks wrote:
Sigh. Ace created this build, anyway.
Actually I remember seeing replays of this build dating all the way back to beta from the likes of NEXGenius.
|
On June 10 2011 12:22 Minigun wrote:
The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
Would love more details/content! ^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
