So I saw last night's NASL match between KiWi and Vibe; and in game 2 on Backwater Gulch KiWi did an amazing timing attack (all in???) vs Vibe right around the the time plus 2 attack finished and he had 7 warp gates off of 2 bases with a couple of observers to help manage creep and burrowed roaches.
It seems pretty solid and from a theorycrafting point of view very easy to transition into either from a 3 gate expo, FFE, 15 Nexus or plain old 2 gate robo expand, adding the observer makes it a lot more potent vs roaches and removes one of the main weaknesses from the traditional 6 gate plus 1 attack timing push.
Would anyone else like to comment or discuss this? Some weaknesses you may find (besides the fact that you need very good micro to make the best of it)? Some reason not to use it, possible transitions, etc?
I for one would very much like to practice it and see how well it does on ladder.
As with all the two base all-ins PvZ, this build is incredibly strong against a late third base, but gets completed dominated by a losira style early third with delayed lair. Hydras are probably not necessary for the defense; I would assume that 3 base roach/ling can hold, though it depends on how many sentries kiwikaki makes.
I might post again after watching some of kiwikaki's replays from MLG.
On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote: hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra?
but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something
MC also had a few DTs in that fight buddy. Strategy seems like a pain in the butt to deal with though. I havent seen the game but i assume it would be very easy for protoss to do alot of harass and not necessarily engage,. by blink ng to main ect.
On June 10 2011 12:06 PJA wrote: As with all the two base all-ins PvZ, this build is incredibly strong against a late third base, but gets completed dominated by a losira style early third with delayed lair. Hydras are probably not necessary for the defense; I would assume that 3 base roach/ling can hold, though it depends on how many sentries kiwikaki makes.
This sums it up perfectly. I've been doing this exact strategy versus Zerg off of a FFE for months with great success. More recently however, I've been running into more and more Zergs taking an early third.
This build is becoming more and more of a gamble because if the Zerg does take an early third they have enough production to easily hold you off with pure Roach. On the other hand, if they take a later third but tech up faster (rushing to Burrow is very common) you'll have no problem stomping them. Even if they have a decent amount of Roaches with Burrow, you can merely abuse the mobility of Blink Stalkers to kill a Hatch or two and retreat.
This build is pretty all-in; if you don't straight up kill him you have to do significant damage and take a quick third in order to transition.
does anyone know the build order? i went hunting for his replays to see if i could find it and i couldnt if anyone can tell me where i can get one of the replays where he does this that would be great
The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
interesting...anyone have links to vods/replays? people have apparently been doing the same build but also tossing in zlot/archon (open up with delayed dt harass or something).
VOD is NASL week 9, Kiwi vs Vibe game 2 on Backwater Gulch. Seeing how it's protected content I can't post a link for the VOD and don't have access to the replay.
Sigh. Ace created this build, anyway. Strong build but lack of scouting in the build makes it rather a dicey, although probably one of the strongest 2 base timings out there, if not the strongest with proper micro.
On June 10 2011 12:09 Mikelius wrote: The real strength of this is that KiWi hit before Vibe could have a scary amount of Hydras.
And iirc, he had like 5 sentries the first time he hit to force field and retreat if necessary.
No, Vibe opened like infester and then a quick third. His build looked really week to every major 2 base timing. I think he even got infesters before he got his major roach upgrades....
I've played this against this build 4 or 5 times on ladder and I have absolutely no idea how to play against it. I've had a 65 drone economy with +1 melee and roach speed finished, but it doesn't seem matter. Roach/ling is sadly not cost efficient in a straight up fight against +2 blink stalker/sentry, since even if you manage to get a full surround and force extra forcefields you can feasibly not kill more than a few stalkers with equal cost armies. Your third tech needs to be infestors, and you need to go infestors as soon as your lair finishes and delay with ling counters as much as possible. If you go hydra, muta, or even baneling you should just die since the first two don't come out soon enough in numbers unless you skip roach, and banelings are largely negated by the 8+ sentries.
On June 10 2011 16:31 Exley wrote: I've played this against this build 4 or 5 times on ladder and I have absolutely no idea how to play against it. I've had a 65 drone economy with +1 melee and roach speed finished, but it doesn't seem matter. Roach/ling is sadly not cost efficient in a straight up fight against +2 blink stalker/sentry, since even if you manage to get a full surround and force extra forcefields you can feasibly not kill more than a few stalkers with equal cost armies. Your third tech needs to be infestors, and you need to go infestors as soon as your lair finishes and delay with ling counters as much as possible. If you go hydra, muta, or even baneling you should just die since the first two don't come out soon enough in numbers unless you skip roach, and banelings are largely negated by the 8+ sentries.
There was a rep with Idra vs Cruncher, where Cruncher won G2 then IdrA absolutely smashed him in G3 knowing exactly what to do, I suggest watching that because I forgot what IdrA did.
On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote: hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra?
but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something
MC also had a few DTs in that fight buddy. Strategy seems like a pain in the butt to deal with though. I havent seen the game but i assume it would be very easy for protoss to do alot of harass and not necessarily engage,. by blink ng to main ect.
In one of the last battles where MC had 40 or so stalkers and idra was pushing at his main choke, he did not have DT's.
I have used a build similar to this before after doing a 14 nexus and then cannoning my front. I usually lose to infestor play or an early enough third that allows them to drone up before I can hit.
On June 10 2011 12:22 Minigun wrote: The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
Such a blinkstalker allin can, with good micro, crush a late 3rd zerg. Hydralisks would be terrible against this; unmicroed, a hydra vs a stalker is a very very narrow victory to the hydralisks, and with blink micro stalkers just eat hydralisks alive.
Speedroaches with attack upgrade supported by speedlings to do flanks and surrounds would do well against this, alternatively roach/infestor or even ling/infestor. Pure roach, or ling/hydra, would be in the worst spot ever against an allin like this.
MC did a very similiar style against July in the GSL finals, that are what, 2.5 months old?
This 2 base timing has been around for a long time, AcE has done it vs FD in g2 and against Sen twice in a row, LoveTT did it against NesTea on Metalopolis etc.etc.etc.
You can fend this off with ling roach if you have a macro advantage (able to drone up freely off 3 base and then produce off 4 hatches), if the map allows for it (i.e. the protoss has to run away and you can chase him down with lings and cant abuse a cliff, examples are Taldarim, Testbug, Terminus RE)
Something that can also work on such (open) maps is a metric shitton of speedroach with 2-0 asap, because he can blink all he wants, youre still one shotting multiple stalkers everytime he engages and your army has a combined 7000 HP.
On any other maps (which are sadly, most of them) you have to make infestors to trade him efficiently. If there is any kind of map-abuse possible where you can't properly engage Infestors are an absolute must.
Creep spread is insanely important. SPREAD CREEP
Of course, if he's dumb and doesn't make an observer press 6-B and collect the free win.
This strategy was popular in china about a month and a half ago, it was widely used by most of the chinese protosses. It's the standard PvZ strat over there. ACE and MC and a bunch of korean protosses use it too.
It's also not an all-in, hydra's don't counter blink stalker with +2. Also you can transition to archon, or even take a third and go collosus sentry while building up.
Its a very strong build but the key part is that you need to pick where you engage. If you get trapped in the middle of the map, no matter what hes got, hes gonna surround you and win. If you fight in a choke or relatively small field, you can either get the good concave and use your blink stalker micro.
Also stalkers and hydras are very even units, and when you add in good stalker micro, it can even favor the stalkers. However if he goes hydra ling, you better not get flanked or surrounded by the lings, or else it will end badly. Really the only reason anyone would go hydra ling is only if they scouted what you were doing.
With blink micro in the early game, it really offers alot of strength to deal damage.
For me, I use this type of pressure alot. I started off with a 7gate lots of sentries with +1 with a mix of lot/stalkers.
I like blink alot. But sentries also can really dominate without any significant amount of banelings or hydras.
I haven't actually tried a 7gate blink push. Since I so heavily favor sentry play. However in 2v2 I absolutely love blink stalkers off 2 bases with + wep upgrade.
It's amazing in many situations, against all races.
Overall. If well executed this is one of those builds that zerg has to respect and defend against it specifically.
It feels like a 4 gate as In you probably are gonna want proxy pylons.
But zerg CAN defend this. However it's a strong timing to deal with. I actually prefer this as oppose to colossus Timing.
zerg needs FG against mass blink stalkers, no matter how late in the game it is.
Roach/infestor, roach/ling/infestor, or even ling/infestor will work well, as long as zerg has enough FG to keep the stalkers from blinking until they're dead.
On June 10 2011 11:57 Allred wrote: hmmm just theory crafting here but hydras woould eat this alive
hmmm just using actual facts MC vs Idra?
but I agree that hydras would do well defensively if they got uped at least 1/1 or something
MC also had a few DTs in that fight buddy. Strategy seems like a pain in the butt to deal with though. I havent seen the game but i assume it would be very easy for protoss to do alot of harass and not necessarily engage,. by blink ng to main ect.
In one of the last battles where MC had 40 or so stalkers and idra was pushing at his main choke, he did not have DT's.
Yes he did. by the end of the fight he had 4 DTs. DL the replay and watch it before you make assumptions.
Does it really matter who did the build first? It's a simple enough build that I don't think anyone in specific needs credit ---> +2 blink stalker + observer w/sentries is pretty explains the build.
On June 11 2011 03:55 Umpteen wrote: Let me get this straight: Six gate I have to go burrowed roaches, 7 gate blink I mustn't?
Eesh...
just see if they get robo or not.
and most of the time when they're going 6 gate they're not going to take both gases at their natural, so if you see 3 gate expo but no gas, tech up to burrow move and prepare for a 6 gate timing.
On June 11 2011 03:55 Umpteen wrote: Let me get this straight: Six gate I have to go burrowed roaches, 7 gate blink I mustn't?
Eesh...
most of the time, "6 gate" means a timing attack where you cut probes, and attack with stalker/sentry/zealot army timed to hit before mutas are out or critical mass of hydras are made.
This thread refers to a 2 base allin attack. The # of gates is more or less arbitrary, I'm sure you could do this build with only 6 gates as well. The important thing is that:
-you have a mostly stalker-based army on 2 bases -you time the attack to hit right as +2 attack & blink finishes
On June 10 2011 23:51 kyneS wrote: This strategy was popular in china about a month and a half ago, it was widely used by most of the chinese protosses. It's the standard PvZ strat over there. ACE and MC and a bunch of korean protosses use it too.
It's also not an all-in, hydra's don't counter blink stalker with +2. Also you can transition to archon, or even take a third and go collosus sentry while building up.
The most successful way of playing this style of PvZ that I've seen is the 7 gate blink stalker push with 50-55 worker count at around minute 12 (you move out earlier around minute 10, but you don't really start committing till 12). Start off with nexus first or FFE if possible (you can do nexus first on xel'naga with 15 nexus 15 forge and 2 canons), otherwise do 3 gate sentry.
The basic order of what you should do is first expand and then slowly build up your production structures while defending and upgrading. (using any of the 3 openers).
I. OPENING
If you do FFE or nexus first, you should form a wall using a forge, gate, core, and then have 2 canons (or 1 on certain maps). Take both gasses in your base before your core finishes. The exact timing benchmarks if your econ is not damaged is as follows: at around 6:40 you need to lay down your 3 extra gates (this should be after you have enough minerals after the core goes down), then at 6:55 you should have enough minerals for 2 assimilators at your expansion, and you can begin +1 attack at your forge. If you can't meet those benchmarks for gate, core, gas, gas, +3 gates, +2 gas at natural , and +1 weapons research, you probably need to modify your early game builds.
II. MOVING OUT (8+ min usually)
You should have atleast 6+ sentries and a good amount of stalkers/zealots (dependent on how confident you are) before moving out. If you feel like the game is going well and your macro has been up to par to your opponent, move out at this point and try to gain some map control. As soon as you move out, build a templar council and begin researching BLINK shortly after.
Take a proxy pylon hopefully at a xel'naga tower or at a choke where the zerg can't do runbys and make this your "base away from home" and try to bait him into engaging you and back off and cut off some of his roaches with force fields. This will force him to think more and macro less. However, don't do any SERIOUS fights since you only have 4 gates. You don't actually have to engage in these small skirmishes, but against better players you increase the amount of uncertainty for the zerg. At 9:15 you should have around 75 supply. +2 should begin around 10 minutes (80+ supply) in an ideal game.
III. FINISHING and pushing with blink and observer
After your blink has begun (this should be around 9:30)throw down a robo, and 3 more gates for a total of 7 gates. Your observer should be leaving as blink finishes (blin should finish between 11:30 and 11:45), and you warp in 7 stalkers each round. You should be able to do this with around 55 probes. Push him hard at 12 minutes and aggresively using good blink stalker micro and reinforcements from your proxy pylon. Continue to force field and use guardian shield.
If when you move out you see a bunch of lings, make zealots along with stalkers to help win skirmishes until blink is done. After that dump all resources into stalkers until you have no more gas, then use zealots as a gas dump (though in my experience with 55 probes and 4 gas's being mined you should not run out of gas for the most part if you are dumping money into pylons). I'd say you run out of gas on alternate warp-ins, when you do so, dump minerals into zealots.
************************** For the 3 gate sentry expand, the order of building production structures is a little different.
The progression of production structures is as follows: 3 gate to 5 gate, and then start TC , then start blink, then make a robo + 2 more gates. Move out and make mass blink stalkers.
For replays look up Ace vs Sen in the Starwars and also LoveTT vs Fruidealer (can't remember if it was FD or not)
There's no such thing as a "best" way to do it. The attack timings and worker cut-off should be based off of what you scout in that same game. If you want to play blind and roll the dice then I would recommend a faster push with no robo and only +1, of course this means you have to put down your twilight earlier.
This sounds similar to what anyproprime.we did in one of his gsl games. I think that the timing window for this attack is smaller tho compared to anypro's where he went 7 gate +1/+1 with an obs after forge FE. I think getting the blink tech as well as the robo would make the timing less viable, allowing them to have enough time to get hydras =/ still seems like an interesting build tho
On June 11 2011 06:25 BlACKTrA wrote: many People dont realize a Stalker und a Hydra are exact the same, they kill each other in the direct fight, Roaches are much stronger, and cheaper :O
They also attack much slower and have a shorter range, making blink micro a hard counter to roaches.
Thanks for all the informative posts, will have to check this out. PvZ is prolly my favorite match up despite the fact that I've been struggling lately
On June 11 2011 06:42 iokke wrote: Thanks for all the informative posts, will have to check this out. PvZ is prolly my favorite match up despite the fact that I've been struggling lately
Mine too, so whenever I see a pretty strong strategy I get excited. I did a (horrifically botched) push like this one yesterday on ladder on Tal'Darim, and even when he nydused me I could defend pretty effectively and just destroyed him before he could get enough infesters to kill me.
I also brought along a warp prism to avoid having lings kill my reinforcement pylons.
Here's my replay, yes I know I'm a noob, and my opponent was not good and teching so hard. I guess he try infestor to FG and banelings bomb, then hydras to sweep everything while mutal or corruptor will join in later. But this is how I do it, force Z to make spine crawlers to defend. Then expand and get hallucination so I could blink in the main, avoid the defend wall completely. Also put lots of pressure on him so he couldn't out macro me so badly.
I recently attended a lan in phoenix and machine and inka were in attendance as well. needless to say inka and machine played quite a few games (in the swiss rounds they played inka beating machine if I recall) and met later in the cut to top 8. Im pretty sure inka was 2-0 against machine in the finals using blink stalkers. I was watching machines screen and saw for the large part he was ahead in the midgame (good creep, early third, good drone saturation) needless to say inka follows up with blink stalkers and proceeds to wittle machine down to nothing.
Well to cut to the chase i asked machine what he think he could have done differently to beat this build and he didnt seem to sure. He said they have been testing it a lot and he didnt seem so sure on how to deal with it. he explained it that stalkers are way to effcient they blink to the back of the line after they lose shields and recharge as they move back to the front with full health again even hydras have trouble keeping up.
as long as you get templar to counter the infestor tech switch this build seems pretty unbeatable
edit: i shouldnt say unbeatable just very resilient
Very interesting discussion, I'll have to give this a try. +1 blink I had seen before, and I saw anyproprime do it, but I missed the Ace/LoveTT games. I'll post my replays in mid masters when I use it.
Does anyone have a replay from kiwikaki or any other pro player doing it? I really wanna try to refine this build to suit my style. And my zergy friend is asking for some help. So i figured I could help him if I had the BO straight up. thanks.
Here's my replay, yes I know I'm a noob, and my opponent was not good and teching so hard. I guess he try infestor to FG and banelings bomb, then hydras to sweep everything while mutal or corruptor will join in later. But this is how I do it, force Z to make spine crawlers to defend. Then expand and get hallucination so I could blink in the main, avoid the defend wall completely. Also put lots of pressure on him so he couldn't out macro me so badly.
Skip Hallucinations IMO. You should get an obs anyway to fight burrowed roaches, and you want as many forcefields in the initial engagements to help your stalkers survive as much as possible until you hit critical mass.
you gotta remember kiwi made a custom map just to practice his stalker micro. in said map you can upgrade and then put them against hydras, practice the micro till youre sound and then implement into play.
kiwi's blink stalker play is used with the utmost confidence. because with proper micro stalkers never die.
Squirtle just did a similar push vs Moonglade but incorporated DT's before pushing. It was a bit dicey but when he killed the Hive it was over. inControL went nuts about it.
On June 11 2011 13:22 Mikelius wrote: Please, for the love of god, tell me the name of the map! I am making it a point to use Blink Stalkers as often as possible PvP and PvZ.
On June 11 2011 13:21 ePBuckets wrote: you gotta remember kiwi made a custom map just to practice his stalker micro. in said map you can upgrade and then put them against hydras, practice the micro till youre sound and then implement into play.
kiwi's blink stalker play is used with the utmost confidence. because with proper micro stalkers never die.
Stalker micro is really not that difficult to master. It's literally just selecting the units in front and blinking them back lol. Not saying my micro is as good as kiwi's but with stalker micro the skill cap is fairly low.
On June 11 2011 13:21 ePBuckets wrote: you gotta remember kiwi made a custom map just to practice his stalker micro. in said map you can upgrade and then put them against hydras, practice the micro till youre sound and then implement into play.
kiwi's blink stalker play is used with the utmost confidence. because with proper micro stalkers never die.
Stalker micro is really not that difficult to master. It's literally just selecting the units in front and blinking them back lol. Not saying my micro is as good as kiwi's but with stalker micro the skill cap is fairly low.
Still much harder than control MMM or hydras/roaches right ? Anyway hardest part about blink stalkers is big wide open areas, where you need to blink lots of stalkers at the same time, and micro them in better position. And micro mean it's not easy to macro at the same time at all since Protoss mechanic is different.
On June 11 2011 13:21 ePBuckets wrote: you gotta remember kiwi made a custom map just to practice his stalker micro. in said map you can upgrade and then put them against hydras, practice the micro till youre sound and then implement into play.
kiwi's blink stalker play is used with the utmost confidence. because with proper micro stalkers never die.
Stalker micro is really not that difficult to master. It's literally just selecting the units in front and blinking them back lol. Not saying my micro is as good as kiwi's but with stalker micro the skill cap is fairly low.
Still much harder than control MMM or hydras/roaches right ? Anyway hardest part about blink stalkers is big wide open areas, where you need to blink lots of stalkers at the same time, and micro them in better position. And micro mean it's not easy to macro at the same time at all since Protoss mechanic is different.
Splitting marines vs banelings for example is much more difficult than blink micro. The thing with blink + forcefields is that positioning is much less important. As for macro, you will have a proxy pylon, take 1 second to warp in 7 stalkers then go back to boxing and blinking stalkers lol. I play protoss btw
On June 11 2011 13:21 ePBuckets wrote: you gotta remember kiwi made a custom map just to practice his stalker micro. in said map you can upgrade and then put them against hydras, practice the micro till youre sound and then implement into play.
kiwi's blink stalker play is used with the utmost confidence. because with proper micro stalkers never die.
Stalker micro is really not that difficult to master. It's literally just selecting the units in front and blinking them back lol. Not saying my micro is as good as kiwi's but with stalker micro the skill cap is fairly low.
I disagree. There is a huge skill cap to blink stalker micro, with the highest being microing individual stalkers in a big group, which is ridiculously hard. Of course you can get by with doing some group stalker micro, but there's always room to improve.
My NASL video is not working right now, so I do not understand. Are you supposed to get a Robotics Facility for Observers or not? I am assuming you still get Hallucinations correct?
On June 12 2011 12:44 iTzAnglory wrote: My NASL video is not working right now, so I do not understand. Are you supposed to get a Robotics Facility for Observers or not? I am assuming you still get Hallucinations correct?
Yes a Robo will be needed for an obs to fight burrowed roaches. As for hallucinations, I've done this strategy a few times on ladder w/o going hallucination and I've had a lot of success. But since Hallucination is 100/100 and doesnt require much time to research, I think researching it won't set you back too much. I'm not quite sure though because this build is more gas intensive than the normal +1 attack 6 gate timing.
On June 12 2011 12:44 iTzAnglory wrote: My NASL video is not working right now, so I do not understand. Are you supposed to get a Robotics Facility for Observers or not? I am assuming you still get Hallucinations correct?
Yes a Robo will be needed for an obs to fight burrowed roaches. As for hallucinations, I've done this strategy a few times on ladder w/o going hallucination and I've had a lot of success. But since Hallucination is 100/100 and doesnt require much time to research, I think researching it won't set you back too much. I'm not quite sure though because this build is more gas intensive than the normal +1 attack 6 gate timing.
I advise against it, you're pretty much committing to this attack so scouting past the initial probe and early pressure is not paramount, and you need all the gas for the stalkers, blink, attack upgrades and sentries in the beginning. And since the timing is just around the 10 minute mark you will hit him before he can get a critical mass of mutas/hydras/infesters. So the only real concern is burrowed roaches.
On June 11 2011 13:38 Mikelius wrote: Squirtle just did a similar push vs Moonglade but incorporated DT's before pushing. It was a bit dicey but when he killed the Hive it was over. inControL went nuts about it.
Keep in mind moonglade gg'd with like 4k minerals. he throws down 1-2 more macro hatches w/ queens and remaxes with 50 roaches when squirtle pushes in for the kill he wins ezpz.
On June 11 2011 13:38 Mikelius wrote: Squirtle just did a similar push vs Moonglade but incorporated DT's before pushing. It was a bit dicey but when he killed the Hive it was over. inControL went nuts about it.
Keep in mind moonglade gg'd with like 4k minerals. he throws down 1-2 more macro hatches w/ queens and remaxes with 50 roaches when squirtle pushes in for the kill he wins ezpz.
Yeah, that wasn't the best game example for it, I was just trying to point out how you can transition into this "timing" (since it's not set in stone AFAIK) from several different builds.
On June 12 2011 12:44 iTzAnglory wrote: My NASL video is not working right now, so I do not understand. Are you supposed to get a Robotics Facility for Observers or not? I am assuming you still get Hallucinations correct?
Yes a Robo will be needed for an obs to fight burrowed roaches. As for hallucinations, I've done this strategy a few times on ladder w/o going hallucination and I've had a lot of success. But since Hallucination is 100/100 and doesnt require much time to research, I think researching it won't set you back too much. I'm not quite sure though because this build is more gas intensive than the normal +1 attack 6 gate timing.
I advise against it, you're pretty much committing to this attack so scouting past the initial probe and early pressure is not paramount, and you need all the gas for the stalkers, blink, attack upgrades and sentries in the beginning. And since the timing is just around the 10 minute mark you will hit him before he can get a critical mass of mutas/hydras/infesters. So the only real concern is burrowed roaches.
Oh thanks for the help! Are any of you guys having problems with the video? I bought the ticket, and I can load every single video on NASL, except KiwiKaki vs Vibe. I tried relogging with a different video, rebooting my computer, clearing cookies, etc. It is just awkward that EVERY OTHER video works except for that one, I would really like to see how it was executed so I get a better idea.
This is not an all in at all! you can transition into 3 base after the attack if the attack is failed, and you would have enough economy and unit producing structures to defend anything that came your way after the attack.
you would already have the robo and twilight council up so you could techswitch.
Blink stalkers are the most effective if zerg isnt prepared or zerg is behind in economy. If you are ahead in economy, you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as you're playing safe..
Otherwise, zerg on 3-4 base will be able to break even with Blink stalkers if they dont take much initial damage
Blink Stalkers are only getting weirder, started having them used against me and I'm in bronze... Micro is obviously not that great but a PvZ 6 gate time attack is turning into a defacto build for beating down opponent's even when it makes no sense to be using Blink Stalkers alone against Terran.
Why would you get +2 attack? Wouldn't armor be better? I know it depends what Zerg makes, but +1 attack is only useful if you rely on zealots, and generally just for early game pushes before Zerg has tech and needs to rely on at least some lings. If you use stalkers, you want armor, because it's something like it takes a zerglings 12 more hits to kill a stalker with +1 armor. Something ridiculous like that.
And these kinds of attacks are all-in because Zerg will have a huge tech and army advantage if you don't kill them. It's not as bad as 6 pool, but if you are held off, and Zerg busts out with a bunch of hydras or infestors or burrow roaches and a-moves to your base, your going to lose your entire army, and the Zerg will have better tech and another base. If you do expand behind it, your attack won't be as powerful, and your are just abandoning your build and behind than if you had played normal.
Zerg definitely needs spines to defend against this though.
On July 02 2011 03:16 Belial88 wrote: Why would you get +2 attack? Wouldn't armor be better? I know it depends what Zerg makes, but +1 attack is only useful if you rely on zealots, and generally just for early game pushes before Zerg has tech and needs to rely on at least some lings. If you use stalkers, you want armor, because it's something like it takes a zerglings 12 more hits to kill a stalker with +1 armor. Something ridiculous like that.
And these kinds of attacks are all-in because Zerg will have a huge tech and army advantage if you don't kill them. It's not as bad as 6 pool, but if you are held off, and Zerg busts out with a bunch of hydras or infestors or burrow roaches and a-moves to your base, your going to lose your entire army, and the Zerg will have better tech and another base. If you do expand behind it, your attack won't be as powerful, and your are just abandoning your build and behind than if you had played normal.
Zerg definitely needs spines to defend against this though.
Armor is almost worthless with this strat, because with good blink micro you should be blinking back hurt units. That's your defense right there, in theory if you're gosu enough you should barely lose any stalkers. So, if you're not losing units, what good does +armor do?
Also, don't discount the mobility that blink Stalkers give. You should have a superior concave, every engagement. You can blink around chokes and static defenses, because this strat provides an observer. Infestors are the biggest problem you'll run into, but honestly that just makes it even for Zerg. You can still use blink to get a good unit spread and concave, making fungal much less useful. If they get a fungal on your units when they're bunched up, you're in trouble, but if you can micro well and spread out, they're in trouble.
If anyone wants vods of how to deal with/execute this build watch grubby vs morrow all three games in the nasl. Grubby tries the build each time with different results. If people want replays I have been using it myself quite a lot recently and you can see how good it is with some pretty average blink micro. I have lost very few games on the ladder using this build.
-lings/infestors/roach fights this very well if that is the tech they chose. protoss tends to clump vs ling, perfect for infestors. -also the strat is solid, but it lacks early game aggression so that does give the zerg a lot of time to macro up with an early 3rd . -nydus is an option if the protoss doesnt have his base covered (like taldarim altar)..but this is a bit of a gamble.
the strat is solid but if zerg knows whats going on and plays on it, then you will have a hard time with his infestors.
The Sheth vs Puzzle game 2 was eight gate blink without a robo to start. Once Puzzle got to sheths third he shat a brick because he saw burrowing roaches but was able to get a robo and obs up and push him back. In any case this build is incredibly powerful because the longetivity of blink stalkers. Each time you engage, zerg suffers multiple roach losses and toss barely gets a scratch. IMO you NEED fungals to deal with this or the toss will just blink back while laughing at all the dead roaches.
On September 29 2011 20:15 xsnac wrote: what is the timing for this ? 11:00 minute mark ?
Please read the thread next time before bumping it for a question.
Very first page:
On June 10 2011 12:22 coL.Minigun wrote: The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra - Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra - Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
I don't think that was an good reason to bump, but since I saw it now go to http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ and find the 7 gate and that's close enough. you need to do ffe > 2gate zealot attack @6zealots with +1 finishing around the time they hit the 3rd base (which you scout) > 7gate. At least I think that's now kiwi plays out his pvz at the time.
On October 10 2011 09:20 Peleus wrote: Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra - Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra - Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
I'd also love to know the answer to his question... Do you even have enough time to get infestors out once you scout this? And by scout it I mean, you see the gateways building.... there's no other way to tell this is coming right?
Right now this is the only thing giving me serious trouble in ZvP.
On October 10 2011 09:20 Peleus wrote: Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra - Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra - Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
I'd also love to know the answer to his question... Do you even have enough time to get infestors out once you scout this? And by scout it I mean, you see the gateways building.... there's no other way to tell this is coming right?
Right now this is the only thing giving me serious trouble in ZvP.
The high # of gateways (6 or 7), the high # of sentries (>6), and the twilight council (being chrono'ed) are all dead giveaways which are possible to scout at the usual suicide OL timing (~7 mins).
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
On March 09 2012 22:21 Nyast wrote: Sorry for the bump.
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
Also day9 on Huk doing it at dreamhack. Very informative daily at the time, but i don't like the style so much these days unless followed up with quite a fast third on viable maps.
Other things to add, i think you really wanna be doing it out of a FFE/Nexus first, (i haven't opened 1 base against zerg for about 8 months or so, i have no idea if it would be viable to do so into 7 gate.) These days people generally mix in extra sentries as well, and it is all about getting the pylon as far forward as possible, so use the first zealot stalker to push the lings back.
Ahah, awesome, thanks. I knew something was fishy, there was tons of threads about that build, too bad I only did a search for threads containing "blink" in the title :p Will read it now, thanks.
I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote: I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
On March 09 2012 22:21 Nyast wrote: Sorry for the bump.
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
ecept for the 1 gate fe bit....but yeah 1 gate fe with that zealot and two stalkers works really well and puts the zerg in a much more difficult position over when to drone and when not too. often you force enough early lings they all-in you or screw their economy. also have you tried putting pylon and first gate in natural so you can wall your expansion really early, as 1 gate fe is vulnerable to mass speedling but already starting the wall with first gateway means you can have a 1 hex gap wall when they try and be aggressive with speedlings.
although personally i feel most zergs don't feel safe enough to go mutas against a 1 gate fe and more often go roach ling and against this I much prefer an immortal push rather than blink.
On June 11 2011 06:25 BlACKTrA wrote: many People dont realize a Stalker und a Hydra are exact the same, they kill each other in the direct fight, Roaches are much stronger, and cheaper :O
Roaches are also incredibly easy to kite and abuse with forcefields.
On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote: I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything.
ecept for the 1 gate fe bit....but yeah 1 gate fe with that zealot and two stalkers works really well and puts the zerg in a much more difficult position over when to drone and when not too. often you force enough early lings they all-in you or screw their economy. also have you tried putting pylon and first gate in natural so you can wall your expansion really early, as 1 gate fe is vulnerable to mass speedling but already starting the wall with first gateway means you can have a 1 hex gap wall when they try and be aggressive with speedlings.
Yes! Mc's build is exactly what I was talking about ( though it's from a FFE ). His timings are identical to what I found too.
Yeah 1 gate FE with a wall at natural is really strong, it's weird that no pros are doing it. I prefer it to FFE since it's easier to scout and feels safer versus allins. Doesn't require the early cannon either. However it has one "big" drawback: you can't punish a hatch first. You can pressure quickly with your zealot and two stalkers, but it's hard to evaluate if the damage is worth the delay in the eco game. Overall I think if you can snippe an overlord, a queen and force 16+ lings, you're probably pretty ahead despite expanding more than 2 minutes later.. if you don't do damage though, you're in trouble.
On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote: I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything.
What I mean is that even if a zerg of diamond level were to scout this, they probally wouldn't even know what was coming. Even a lot of masters don't know how to properly prepare for it. It definately works at higher level of play, I think this build can be really tough to deal with.
On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote: I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything.
What I mean is that even if a zerg of diamond level were to scout this, they probally wouldn't even know what was coming. Even a lot of masters don't know how to properly prepare for it. It definately works at higher level of play, I think this build can be really tough to deal with.
This guy doesn't play at a diamond level obviously, if he did, he'd realize people are smart enough to recognize almost all of the known 2 base timings in various matchups.
EPT
