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[G] Chinese PvZ

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Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 15:09:49
June 22 2011 14:50 GMT
#1
UPDATES: Changed the opening build and added some more info. Thanks Anihc

Hello teamliquid,

Recently I changed my PvZ after watching the Chinese players LoveTT, xiaot and Lovecd (hence the "Chinese" in the title).

They use a strategy that seems rather unorthodox on the NA/EU server, but actually works really well: Mass blink stalker.

The idea is to open with a fast expo (not necessarily forge fe, although I do think forge fe is the best choice) and go for a lot of blink stalkers with good attack upgrades and very few sentries. Blink stalkers are as mobile as protoss gets, you can use them to snipe off hatches, harass, pick of some units, take mapcontrol,... there's nothing a stalker can't do (except stopping Idra from leaving games too early, but I have my hopes up for a buff next patch).

The Build

I will warn you I'm a numbers freak, so if you want to try this strat right after reading this you better take some notes.

There are many variations of this build, I will discuss the one I use and feel the most comfortable with.

You start off with a forge fe like I said before. If it's shakuras or taldarim that won't be a problem but on maps like xel naga it's bets to practice your building placement. Everyone has a different version of forge feing so again, I will just write down what I do.

9 Pylon (at highground unless it's shakuras/taldarim. It's easier to deal with early pools this way, in a time were 50% of the ladder zergs seem to pool at 10 or earlier that's useful)
15 Forge if you scouted a gas-pool or pool-expo, if hatch first 15 nexus 15 forge
16 Pylon (at lowground)
18 Nexus
18 Cannons, one in mineral line, one behind your future wall.
18 Gate
19 Gas
20 Gas
Use first 4 CB's on nexus
Core
Zealot
WG when core is done
CB WG thrice
CB your nexusses 3-6 times
Get only 1 zealot and scout with it ( make sure you check whether he gets a fast third)
Get +1.
Add 5 gates. You should get them around 6:30-7:30, if you scouted standard play it's fine to go for to sneak some more probes in.
2 Natural gasses after gates

Go for an early push with your initial 6-7 zealots. Continue warping zealots if you feel like you can kill him completely or snipe his third. This hits at a really awkward timing for him, and is sooo good against fast thirds.

Around 9:00 Twilight Council (Blink asap, use 2-3 CBs)
Robo when you start blink (Observer right away)

Note: If you didn't see a fast third; add 3gates and a twilight council. Start your robo when blink starts and add 3 gates. Start pressuring around the 10 minute mark. Around 12 minutes into the game is an excellent time to attack because you have reached a good amout of stalkers by then.

Stop at 50 probes
Make a lot of stalkers and be very active with them

Execution:

The time has come to kill ourselves some bugs.

The point of the initial fast 6gate+1 zealot attack is pressuring a fast third base or a ling/infestor style, two weaknesses of this build. If he's not doing any of the above see whether you can do damage, and if not retreat.

While you're pressuring you are transitioning into blink.
Use your stalkers to pressure him a lot. Utilise your mobility to try and snipe his third, engage him and blink micro when you feel you can take them, pick of whatever you can pick off and keep engaging as long as you feel you can really hurt him. Also use the terrain( like the cliff behind the third on xelnaga)

You can also try to blink up to his main by using your observer as a spotter. A fun thing to do is to sacrifice one of your sentries to forcefield his main ramp, and then go up and tear his base apart. Very situational, but if it works you will have a smile on your face and a song on your lips.

You can engage every composition head-on unless he has infestors. This is not a problem though, with good control he's only even.

Hydra/ling can be dealt with using good blinks and fast +2 weapons.

Roach/hydra, baneling/ling and roach/ling will have a very hard time against this. Your push hits before a sufficient number of hydras are out, and before overlord drop is completed.

You will be the strongest around the 12 min mark, with 7gates kicking in and a stable economy to support them.


Follow-ups

The Chinese players take their third very late (13-14minish), which I don't really like.
Ofcourse I can't just go "hahaha poor zerg I have 300 apm blink micro and can own you by building nothing but stalkers" like the Chinese pros can.

I feel like a 12 min third is safe and usually the best option. Resume probe production now. On macro maps like taldarim I prefer a very fast 10:30 third though. It's not really hard to defend it because you're constantly applying pressure, and the zerg will not be thinking about attacking you anytime soon.

You can stay on blink stalkers for a long time and get away with it, but around the time the third is halfway done I feel like starting to tech is a wise decision. The good thing is that you can do whatever you want because you already have a TC and a robo. You can also opt to go for a dark shrine if you see he's illprepared for dark templar harass.


Roach/Hydra

Roach/hydra with fast +2 is imo one of the best responses by the zerg. I really like going double robo colossi off 3bases vs this.

Roach/infestor

Against any infestor play I highly prefer templar tech over colossi. I feel very uncomfortable without feedback. I find that immortal/blink stalkers/sentry/templar is the best composition vs this. If you can snipe his infestors with feedback his roaches will just melt.

Doubleling

If he goes doubleling it's important to add splash. It doesn't really matter whether you get colossi or ht/archon. I feel like templar/archon is the best choice because then you have feedback and archons just rape overlord bombers. I usually get charge and go for chargelot/stalker/archon/templar/sentry. Later on you do want to add colossi, but only 3-4. Whatever you do don't go lasertoss against an infestor player. A well upgraded stalker ball should always be the core of your army. He will probably try to baneling bomb you so building a couple extra observers to patrol around your base isn't a halfbad choice (since banelings are basically zerg's blueflame hellions when it comes to insanely good probe harassement)

You can also go heavy chargelot/archon, which is great against doubleling. I think it's best to scout what he's doing with your 6gate pressure, and then decide whether you're better off with blink or chargelot/archon.You can afford a lot more gates if you go chargelot, I usually end up with 14 or more off 3bases (since ht are only 50 minerals)
I think both styles work well, it comes down to personal preference.

Lategame tricks

In the very lategame you can actually harass him insanely. If you get a mothership out you can run around with your stalkers and recall them back once they're in danger. Another thing I love to do is warp-prism harassement. Just fly a prims to the edge of his base, warp-in your units there after a battle and kill his hatch or tech buildings.

Counters

There are no real hard counters to this build. If he has infestors you won't be killing him anytime soon but it's not a hard counter.

A fast third base is strong against this, so it's vital to start pressuring quickly. This is the main reason why opening 6gate is more solid. If you let him drone really hard he will overwhelm you with an endless swarm of roaches.

FAQ

+ Show Spoiler +
I'll try to answer some questions here

"Infestor/ling destroys this"

It really doesn't. It's the best thing to do when you're sure you will face this strategy, but blind fast infestors are kind of risky vs other stuff so I don't see them often at all.
Main thing is to control really well and to make sure you get out before he can fungal you, don't EVER let him fungal you. tech up to templar or colossi and you're more than fine. if you don't like going blink against infestor play, go chargelot/archon.

"Do you always get weapon upgrades?"

In most cases weapons is better, but like some people pointed out correctly (thanks!) armor is better against mutaling and against heavy ling/infestor styles it's also very viable.

"Why the 6gate?"

The main weaknesses of this build are a fast third and fast infestors with a lot of lings. By going for a heavy zealot +1 attack you'll give both of them trouble. Don't engage when you see he has a bunch of roaches obviously. Your main goal is to pressure and to make him get more roaches, which is good as you transition to blink.

"Can this hold a roach/ling all-in?"

Yes. You already have 2 or 3 cannons and warpgates should finish soon. With 6gates pumping stalkers there's no way he can kill you.

"The replays don't show the exact build order"

It's more about the heavy stalker style than one specific opening. I feel like the way I do it it's the best all-around. Against roach/hydra, ling/bling or muta/ling you're completely fine and against infestors or a fast third you have some nice early pressure.



Replays

No replays, I'm at work.

Just kidding, don't ban me, I like it here.

coLrsvp vs xSixMystik 6gate zealot into blink.
[image loading]

Xiaot vs Idra

Idra vs Xiaot, a more macro-ish style.

LoveTT vs Morrow Baneling/ling

Lovecd vs Dimaga

Lovecd vs Dimaga Infestor/ling

You can find some more games from the Starswar tournament, but they're pre-patch if i recall correctly. They don't follow my build precisely, but it's more about the heavy stalker style than it is a "do this and nothing else" opener.

Day9 did a daily about Huk's style; and if Huk does it I don't doubt for a second that it's a great build

Day9 talks about Huk's blink style

Hope you enjoyed it,

Arcane
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 22 2011 15:00 GMT
#2
I'm only in Diamond and I've been using this build a while (the general 7 gate, blink, +2, obs). Does that mean I'm ahead of my time? :D

It is very, very good. I've not lost with it yet in about 10 attempts.

What I like is that it can be somewhat all-inish - never resume probe production, don't expand, CB gates, or you can expand behind it with blink, +2, and robo already up.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
RobCorso
Profile Joined May 2011
United States111 Posts
June 22 2011 15:04 GMT
#3
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before.
We make expand, then defense it-WhiteRa
RobCorso
Profile Joined May 2011
United States111 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:07:02
June 22 2011 15:06 GMT
#4
I also think going sentry heavy to get your expo up is nice against zerg (3 gate sentry fast expand)
edit- terrible sorry for double posting, thought the guy above me was below me
Please remove this post D:
We make expand, then defense it-WhiteRa
2heartless
Profile Joined April 2011
United States66 Posts
June 22 2011 15:06 GMT
#5
I like this idea alot but wait do you go for +3 attack but no armor at all?
"Life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness should not be taught at school because it does not apply there"
CrownRoyal
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Vatican City State1872 Posts
June 22 2011 15:07 GMT
#6
"stalkers are meant to tank" LOL
You're pretty when I'm drunk.
CrownRoyal
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Vatican City State1872 Posts
June 22 2011 15:07 GMT
#7
cause if u micro your units right they shouldnt be taking that much dmg to health, only shields.
You're pretty when I'm drunk.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 22 2011 15:09 GMT
#8
On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean).


You're thinking about this completely the wrong way. *Because* Stalkers don't have high DPS is why you want the two attack upgrades.

The armour upgrade is close to meaningless because you're just blinking back the hurt ones anyway.

i.e. we need to kill = +2 attack
we need to survive = blink

Armour is superfluous.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
June 22 2011 15:16 GMT
#9
On June 23 2011 00:06 2heartless wrote:
I like this idea alot but wait do you go for +3 attack but no armor at all?


Yes.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Teodice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Sweden641 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:26:26
June 22 2011 15:25 GMT
#10
Horrible mistake sorry.

Delete post if required.
You will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not
tuestresfat
Profile Joined December 2010
2555 Posts
June 22 2011 15:25 GMT
#11
On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean). Very nice build though. Thank you for doing the work for me :D I've had trouble getting this build correctly as I have never seen those players before.

Stalkers can't tank for shit. They have below average dps that scales terribly with upgrades. Their greatest asset is their mobility.
denzelz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States604 Posts
June 22 2011 15:25 GMT
#12
Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.
awwnuts07
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States621 Posts
June 22 2011 15:35 GMT
#13
On June 23 2011 00:09 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 23 2011 00:04 RobCorso wrote:
Personally my favorite strategy, but I prefer fast armor with blink stalkers; it flows better because stalkers are meant to tank (they don't have the highest dps if you know what I mean).


You're thinking about this completely the wrong way. *Because* Stalkers don't have high DPS is why you want the two attack upgrades.

The armour upgrade is close to meaningless because you're just blinking back the hurt ones anyway.

i.e. we need to kill = +2 attack
we need to survive = blink

Armour is superfluous.


Huk was researching armor before weapons when he was up against Mutas in the Dreamhack tourny. It makes sense since mutas get that extra bounce damage. But against roaches, yeah, weapons for sure.

On the subject"chinese style PvZ": I'm in the same boat as the OP. Ever since I saw LoveTT (or LoveCD?) use this against Dimaga in Starswars, I immediately dropped the standard PvZ of "get fuck load of colossi, then push" style. Passivity against current zerg strategies is a sure fire death sentence. This heavy gateway/blink style allows you to remain a constant threat AND you can split your forces if need be. Add in a warp prism and you have the potential to kick some serious ass.

An added benefit of going this route is that your control/multitasking are going to improve since Blink Stalkers need to be out on the map to be effective. Blink Stalkers aren't as good when you don't have space to attack, retreat, then re-ingage. The first few times I tried the build, I got my ass handed to me because my mindset was still "turtle until 200/200". Not good.
I'm a noob
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
June 22 2011 15:38 GMT
#14
On June 23 2011 00:25 denzelz wrote:
Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.


Rushing infestors will kill you vs large blink stalker numbers around the ~9 minute mark. Its easier to just roach/ling push his expansion in this type of play when they only have 3 sentries. They'd have to have really good force fields and cannons to just break even with Zerg early game pushes.
Deathmare
Profile Joined February 2011
United States30 Posts
June 22 2011 15:44 GMT
#15
I see why this is so appealing, but it really cuts into the point of fast expanding I would think. You're stuck at 18 supply for a while, which cuts into worker production. I've seen people do it and I know it works, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose to me.
Climbing my way to Grandmasters, one learned lesson at a time.
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:48:00
June 22 2011 15:45 GMT
#16
On June 23 2011 00:25 denzelz wrote:
Massing upgraded Zerglings into Infestors might be the best counter to this. When I suspect a Blink Stalker rush or if I just see a ton of Stalkers from P, I usually just go double Evo Zerglings into 1-2 Infestors and Mutalisks.

That's not a big problem for this build as you are already on your way to Templar tech with the Twilight Council. Needless to say HTs are an excellent counter to all the units you mentioned.
On June 23 2011 00:44 Deathmare wrote:
I see why this is so appealing, but it really cuts into the point of fast expanding I would think. You're stuck at 18 supply for a while, which cuts into worker production. I've seen people do it and I know it works, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose to me.

That is usually the case with a fast expansion; be slightly low on workers when you invest in the expansion, but once it's up you can catch up rapidly and most importantly, grow beyond the point of 1 base saturation, obviously. Also, the additional Nexus helps a lot for the upgrades: double Chronoboost (don't underestimate that).
dani`
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands2402 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 15:48:14
June 22 2011 15:47 GMT
#17
-- edit
Double post, sorry.
ABCSFirebird
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany90 Posts
June 22 2011 15:51 GMT
#18
Xiaot vs IdrA isn't the above mentioned bo?
This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill - Fifteen percent concentrated power of will - Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain ..
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
June 22 2011 15:52 GMT
#19
Thanks for the replays. I remember watching LoveTT's games against nestea and zenio a few months ago. Guy was absolutely insane and played with such a different opening/style from what I'm used to seeing. Looking forward to trying this out!
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-22 16:10:16
June 22 2011 15:58 GMT
#20
Not going colossi is still a waste imo against roach play. You want the robo for obs anyway and investing in some colo just gives you so much more push power.
Against heavy ling strats this is awesome though as the only way for them to deal with it is infestors which come quite late letting toss expand faster then the zerg. It naturally transitions well into chargelot archon as well which deals with anything not using roaches.

I don't like the opening though, why would you go hallucination especially when you are only getting 3 sentries anyway? doesn't make sense. Stargate into this is much more reliable, you get that little bit of early pressure and you often force them into a form of defense which is terrible against blink stalker play (slow ass hydra's, spore's or even corruptors). Phoenix are also quite useful for lifting infestors, critical if you want to escape.

I do think the overall tendency in PvZ is to get a little less sentries, 6 or so usually is enough and leaves more gas for quick tech. Too many sentries is only a vulnerability against some strategies anyway and with good control 6 will do against roach play imo.

Edit: the idra game is a horrible example. P is stuck defending with his blink all game long and only gets aggresive and wins when he actually has colossi.
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