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On June 13 2011 06:26 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 13:38 Mikelius wrote:
Squirtle just did a similar push vs Moonglade but incorporated DT's before pushing. It was a bit dicey but when he killed the Hive it was over. inControL went nuts about it. Keep in mind moonglade gg'd with like 4k minerals. he throws down 1-2 more macro hatches w/ queens and remaxes with 50 roaches when squirtle pushes in for the kill he wins ezpz.
Yeah, that wasn't the best game example for it, I was just trying to point out how you can transition into this "timing" (since it's not set in stone AFAIK) from several different builds.
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On June 13 2011 06:20 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 17:39 skp wrote:On June 12 2011 12:44 iTzAnglory wrote:
My NASL video is not working right now, so I do not understand. Are you supposed to get a Robotics Facility for Observers or not? I am assuming you still get Hallucinations correct? Yes a Robo will be needed for an obs to fight burrowed roaches. As for hallucinations, I've done this strategy a few times on ladder w/o going hallucination and I've had a lot of success. But since Hallucination is 100/100 and doesnt require much time to research, I think researching it won't set you back too much. I'm not quite sure though because this build is more gas intensive than the normal +1 attack 6 gate timing. I advise against it, you're pretty much committing to this attack so scouting past the initial probe and early pressure is not paramount, and you need all the gas for the stalkers, blink, attack upgrades and sentries in the beginning. And since the timing is just around the 10 minute mark you will hit him before he can get a critical mass of mutas/hydras/infesters. So the only real concern is burrowed roaches.
Oh thanks for the help! Are any of you guys having problems with the video? I bought the ticket, and I can load every single video on NASL, except KiwiKaki vs Vibe. I tried relogging with a different video, rebooting my computer, clearing cookies, etc. It is just awkward that EVERY OTHER video works except for that one, I would really like to see how it was executed so I get a better idea. 
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This is not an all in at all! you can transition into 3 base after the attack if the attack is failed, and you would have enough economy and unit producing structures to defend anything that came your way after the attack.
you would already have the robo and twilight council up so you could techswitch.
NamsenX
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Blink stalkers are the most effective if zerg isnt prepared or zerg is behind in economy. If you are ahead in economy, you can pretty much do whatever you want as long as you're playing safe..
Otherwise, zerg on 3-4 base will be able to break even with Blink stalkers if they dont take much initial damage
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Blink Stalkers are only getting weirder, started having them used against me and I'm in bronze...
Micro is obviously not that great but a PvZ 6 gate time attack is turning into a defacto build for beating down opponent's even when it makes no sense to be using Blink Stalkers alone against Terran.
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Why would you get +2 attack? Wouldn't armor be better? I know it depends what Zerg makes, but +1 attack is only useful if you rely on zealots, and generally just for early game pushes before Zerg has tech and needs to rely on at least some lings. If you use stalkers, you want armor, because it's something like it takes a zerglings 12 more hits to kill a stalker with +1 armor. Something ridiculous like that.
And these kinds of attacks are all-in because Zerg will have a huge tech and army advantage if you don't kill them. It's not as bad as 6 pool, but if you are held off, and Zerg busts out with a bunch of hydras or infestors or burrow roaches and a-moves to your base, your going to lose your entire army, and the Zerg will have better tech and another base. If you do expand behind it, your attack won't be as powerful, and your are just abandoning your build and behind than if you had played normal.
Zerg definitely needs spines to defend against this though.
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On July 02 2011 03:16 Belial88 wrote:
Why would you get +2 attack? Wouldn't armor be better? I know it depends what Zerg makes, but +1 attack is only useful if you rely on zealots, and generally just for early game pushes before Zerg has tech and needs to rely on at least some lings. If you use stalkers, you want armor, because it's something like it takes a zerglings 12 more hits to kill a stalker with +1 armor. Something ridiculous like that.
And these kinds of attacks are all-in because Zerg will have a huge tech and army advantage if you don't kill them. It's not as bad as 6 pool, but if you are held off, and Zerg busts out with a bunch of hydras or infestors or burrow roaches and a-moves to your base, your going to lose your entire army, and the Zerg will have better tech and another base. If you do expand behind it, your attack won't be as powerful, and your are just abandoning your build and behind than if you had played normal.
Zerg definitely needs spines to defend against this though.
Armor is almost worthless with this strat, because with good blink micro you should be blinking back hurt units. That's your defense right there, in theory if you're gosu enough you should barely lose any stalkers. So, if you're not losing units, what good does +armor do?
Also, don't discount the mobility that blink Stalkers give. You should have a superior concave, every engagement. You can blink around chokes and static defenses, because this strat provides an observer. Infestors are the biggest problem you'll run into, but honestly that just makes it even for Zerg. You can still use blink to get a good unit spread and concave, making fungal much less useful. If they get a fungal on your units when they're bunched up, you're in trouble, but if you can micro well and spread out, they're in trouble.
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If anyone wants vods of how to deal with/execute this build watch grubby vs morrow all three games in the nasl. Grubby tries the build each time with different results. If people want replays I have been using it myself quite a lot recently and you can see how good it is with some pretty average blink micro. I have lost very few games on the ladder using this build.
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Zerglings+hydras should faceroll this tactic, where you get a third base early.
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+2 AND Blink? Surely this would lose to Infestor/Roach...
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-lings/infestors/roach fights this very well if that is the tech they chose. protoss tends to clump vs ling, perfect for infestors.
-also the strat is solid, but it lacks early game aggression so that does give the zerg a lot of time to macro up with an early 3rd .
-nydus is an option if the protoss doesnt have his base covered (like taldarim altar)..but this is a bit of a gamble.
the strat is solid but if zerg knows whats going on and plays on it, then you will have a hard time with his infestors.
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watch sheth vs Puzzle game 2, much better/cleaner version of the build :D
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The Sheth vs Puzzle game 2 was eight gate blink without a robo to start. Once Puzzle got to sheths third he shat a brick because he saw burrowing roaches but was able to get a robo and obs up and push him back. In any case this build is incredibly powerful because the longetivity of blink stalkers. Each time you engage, zerg suffers multiple roach losses and toss barely gets a scratch. IMO you NEED fungals to deal with this or the toss will just blink back while laughing at all the dead roaches.
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what is the timing for this ? 11:00 minute mark ?
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On September 29 2011 20:15 xsnac wrote:
what is the timing for this ? 11:00 minute mark ?
Please read the thread next time before bumping it for a question.
Very first page:
On June 10 2011 12:22 coL.Minigun wrote:
The only build I lose to when doing this is fast infestors.
Hydras aren't really a "counter"
I'll add more content in minute, accidentally qued up a game.
The build hits at around the 10 minute mark, notice this is before baneling drops, and before a critical number of hydras can build. The twilight drops at the 8 minute mark, and get a total of 7 gates, with a robo added once blink is started.
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Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra -
Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra -
Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
Advice appreciated. (Highish level please - Masters / GM)
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Someone can put the BO which use Kiwikaki plz! Or the link for the VOD
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I don't think that was an good reason to bump, but since I saw it now go to http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ and find the 7 gate and that's close enough. you need to do ffe > 2gate zealot attack @6zealots with +1 finishing around the time they hit the 3rd base (which you scout) > 7gate. At least I think that's now kiwi plays out his pvz at the time.
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EPT
