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On October 10 2011 09:20 Peleus wrote:
Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra -
Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra -
Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
Advice appreciated. (Highish level please - Masters / GM)
I'd also love to know the answer to his question... Do you even have enough time to get infestors out once you scout this? And by scout it I mean, you see the gateways building.... there's no other way to tell this is coming right?
Right now this is the only thing giving me serious trouble in ZvP.
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On January 07 2012 05:42 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:20 Peleus wrote:
Not meaning to bring this back up, but I was practicing against a GM friend and getting fairly raped by sentries when trying to go ling / infestor with fast ups on the lings. Good sentry micro seemed to delay the ling attacks long enough to damage a critical amount of lings to nullify their effectiveness.
Also, I may simply be bad with macro, but I was finding that I could only get out 3-4 infestors by the time this was hitting (gas starved, to many upgrades?) so I couldn't really hit that critical number to get enough damage done on the stalkers post 1.4 patch.
Would the best counter to this be ling / hydra or roach / hydra?
ling/hydra -
Thinking advantage is FF's are cast next to the stalkers themselves, allowing hydras to maintain their concave and not be interupted. A high number of units (lings) means it takes longer for the stalkers to do damage to the army. Lings allow more gas for upgrades / more hydra's.
roach/hydra -
Advantage being roach's HP allowing the army to take more damage, they are also cost effective vs stalkers. Allows for an easier transition for the inevitable robo follow up. Allows a single set up upgrades (missile) rather than both (melee / missile). Big disadvantage that I see is FF's cutting up both ranged units, which would dramatically lessen the effectiveness. Also slightly more gas required, meaning less units out as typically we'll be gas starved unless we can get gas going quickly on our third, which is unlikely.
Advice appreciated. (Highish level please - Masters / GM) I'd also love to know the answer to his question... Do you even have enough time to get infestors out once you scout this? And by scout it I mean, you see the gateways building.... there's no other way to tell this is coming right? Right now this is the only thing giving me serious trouble in ZvP.
The high # of gateways (6 or 7), the high # of sentries (>6), and the twilight council (being chrono'ed) are all dead giveaways which are possible to scout at the usual suicide OL timing (~7 mins).
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Sorry for the bump.
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
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On March 09 2012 22:21 Nyast wrote:
Sorry for the bump.
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
I understand why you didn't find it, because it wasn't well named for easy searching ^^
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=236230
I think that is what you are looking for.
Also day9 on Huk doing it at dreamhack. Very informative daily at the time, but i don't like the style so much these days unless followed up with quite a fast third on viable maps.
Other things to add, i think you really wanna be doing it out of a FFE/Nexus first, (i haven't opened 1 base against zerg for about 8 months or so, i have no idea if it would be viable to do so into 7 gate.) These days people generally mix in extra sentries as well, and it is all about getting the pylon as far forward as possible, so use the first zealot stalker to push the lings back.
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Ahah, awesome, thanks. I knew something was fishy, there was tons of threads about that build, too bad I only did a search for threads containing "blink" in the title :p Will read it now, thanks.
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I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
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On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote:
I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro.
Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
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On March 09 2012 22:21 Nyast wrote:
Sorry for the bump.
I'm surprised that no guide seems to exist for that build ( did a search and could only find discussions ). It's still used regularly, despite being pretty old. But I wonder how effective it has become, given the metagame changes of the past months.
In any case, I've been practising variants of that build and I think a good way to modernize it is to incorporate some forms of early pressure. You can't keep a Zerg alone for 10+ minutes nowadays, or you're in a hell of trouble.
It's possible to do a timing push of 8 zealots right when +1 finishes, and it doesn't even seem to slow down the blink timing that much ( I could still hit +2 and blink done by 10'30 ).
I've also been practising it out of a 1 gate FE instead of a FFE, and I can even incorporate a 1 zealot + 2 stalkers rush right at the beginning ( plus still the 8 zealots +1 around 8'15 ).
So I'm wondering if some other people still use that build, and if you do, what changes have you brought to it to make it more effective with the current metagame ?
you mean like this exact build yesterday from mc? 
http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/playoffs/download/26115398/
ecept for the 1 gate fe bit....but yeah 1 gate fe with that zealot and two stalkers works really well and puts the zerg in a much more difficult position over when to drone and when not too. often you force enough early lings they all-in you or screw their economy. also have you tried putting pylon and first gate in natural so you can wall your expansion really early, as 1 gate fe is vulnerable to mass speedling but already starting the wall with first gateway means you can have a 1 hex gap wall when they try and be aggressive with speedlings.
although personally i feel most zergs don't feel safe enough to go mutas against a 1 gate fe and more often go roach ling and against this I much prefer an immortal push rather than blink.
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On June 11 2011 06:25 BlACKTrA wrote:
many People dont realize a Stalker und a Hydra are exact the same, they kill each other in the direct fight, Roaches are much stronger, and cheaper :O
Roaches are also incredibly easy to kite and abuse with forcefields.
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On March 09 2012 23:30 ParkChungHee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote:
I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro. Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it.
Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything.
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Why was this bumped? O_O
EDIT: Facepalm, nvm found the reason.
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On March 10 2012 00:05 ThePianoDentist wrote:you mean like this exact build yesterday from mc? http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/hanover/sc2/playoffs/download/26115398/ecept for the 1 gate fe bit....but yeah 1 gate fe with that zealot and two stalkers works really well and puts the zerg in a much more difficult position over when to drone and when not too. often you force enough early lings they all-in you or screw their economy. also have you tried putting pylon and first gate in natural so you can wall your expansion really early, as 1 gate fe is vulnerable to mass speedling but already starting the wall with first gateway means you can have a 1 hex gap wall when they try and be aggressive with speedlings.
Yes! Mc's build is exactly what I was talking about ( though it's from a FFE ). His timings are identical to what I found too.
Yeah 1 gate FE with a wall at natural is really strong, it's weird that no pros are doing it. I prefer it to FFE since it's easier to scout and feels safer versus allins. Doesn't require the early cannon either. However it has one "big" drawback: you can't punish a hatch first. You can pressure quickly with your zealot and two stalkers, but it's hard to evaluate if the damage is worth the delay in the eco game. Overall I think if you can snippe an overlord, a queen and force 16+ lings, you're probably pretty ahead despite expanding more than 2 minutes later.. if you don't do damage though, you're in trouble.
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On March 10 2012 03:27 Foks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 23:30 ParkChungHee wrote:On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote:
I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro. Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it. Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything.
What I mean is that even if a zerg of diamond level were to scout this, they probally wouldn't even know what was coming. Even a lot of masters don't know how to properly prepare for it. It definately works at higher level of play, I think this build can be really tough to deal with.
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On March 10 2012 09:18 ParkChungHee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 03:27 Foks wrote:On March 09 2012 23:30 ParkChungHee wrote:On March 09 2012 23:26 Foks wrote:
I think this timing has been figured out by most zergs diamond +. I don't like it if u didn't preceed it with +1 4gate, etc (to set the Z back). I see it fail in high masters streams consistently. Seems like players are only able to pull it off because zerg just made mistakes with their macro. Diamond doesn't really even know what a timing is. I've been trying this build out recently and I would say im about 70% win ratio with it. Diamond play revolves around tons of 2 base timings, what are you talking about? Grats w/ your 70% win rate, but doesn't mean anything. What I mean is that even if a zerg of diamond level were to scout this, they probally wouldn't even know what was coming. Even a lot of masters don't know how to properly prepare for it. It definately works at higher level of play, I think this build can be really tough to deal with.
This guy doesn't play at a diamond level obviously, if he did, he'd realize people are smart enough to recognize almost all of the known 2 base timings in various matchups.
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EPT
