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MasterFischer
Denmark836 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:12 Poopi wrote: IdrA knows how to react against cheese you know? Does he? Yea probaly, recently, he lost to jinro who cheesed him. Idra has lost alot of games due to cheese. And has himself always been a stalwart aggressor against cheese builds, because he says it's not a part of the intended game. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
Actually he's not the only one beeing successful like that. Have a look at ActionJesuz who is rank 1 Masters with only six-pool. Now ActionJesuz certainly has better overall skill and better mechanics, but it's comparable to a certain degree. | ||
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Aven
Netherlands392 Posts
He did made the right choice of spending his first gas on a baneling nest But he should not have spent his next 100 gas on metabolic boost which left him only to create 2 banelings while he could have had 6 if he skipped his ling speed, which should do the trick to stopping this push. This might be worthy of mentioning in the OP | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:09 MasterFischer wrote: And this is because GOOD players always shine through. What is the problem, again? Cheese can be a hard thing to deal with, but if you're dedicated to it, you can beat it. Easily. The only reason players like Idra, sometimes loose to cheese, is probably because he refuses to acknowledge cheese a part of the game, and thus refuses to practice against cheese.. because he is a solid macro mid-late game player... If Idra wants to become the top player in the world, he better be prepared and practiced alot of cheese, ALONG with all his normal macro builds and what not. Simply because the chance of somebody cheesing you WILL occur.. time and time again  I don't think anyone is complaining about cheese. Everyone needs to deal with a good 6 pool or cannon rush. The main issue with this build is that it is almost impossible to scout. I play protoss and I need to be on the ball to deal with this build. Meanwhile my opponent just needs to attack move up the ramp. The fact that he made it all the way to Masters off of 70 games is kinda of mind blowing. Cheese needs to be in the game, its what makes it exciting from begining to end. But players shouldn't be rewarded for playing badly. Getting to Masters League is being rewarded well beyond the players skill level. | ||
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LDPDC
France17 Posts
1) This build has been known for some time now: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2211722493?page=1 2) How to counter it? Well there is a supply. He is lying at the bottom of the ramp. Offered. He is absolutely KEY to this build which is based on the OC call for supply. If I had to counter this build I would try to detroy it. It would give at least scouting on the build. 3) Stop raging about so called "cheeses". They are taking place at the beginning of the game and as such they are the easiest to train against. | ||
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Geiko
France1958 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:23 Plansix wrote: I don't think anyone is complaining about cheese. Everyone needs to deal with a good 6 pool or cannon rush. The main issue with this build is that it is almost impossible to scout. I play protoss and I need to be on the ball to deal with this build. Meanwhile my opponent just needs to attack move up the ramp. The fact that he made it all the way to Masters off of 70 games is kinda of mind blowing. Cheese needs to be in the game, its what makes it exciting from begining to end. But players shouldn't be rewarded for playing badly. Getting to Masters League is being rewarded well beyond the players skill level. In fact I started Mid masters and worked my way to top master/ Grand master. I know I asked for it but I still deserve a little credit for being an average master protoss player ^^ On May 17 2011 03:26 LDPDC wrote: Hey, my 2c: 1) This build has been known for some time now: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2211722493?page=1 2) How to counter it? Well there is a supply. He is lying at the bottom of the ramp. Offered. He is absolutely KEY to this build which is based on the OC call for supply. If I had to counter this build I would try to detroy it. It would give at least scouting on the build. 3) Stop raging about so called "cheeses". They are taking place at the beginning of the game and as such they are the easiest to train against. Theorycrafting at its best ^^ I see NO way, that you could ever take down that supply depot with anything else then a 6 pool. I don't even see how you could imagine this to be a possibility. If you're talking about taking it down with units while I am gone from my base and pushing your ramp, then I don't care, I've already got my 27 supply worth of scvs and marines, and I'm not planing on making more. You should rather be using your army to defend your base IMO. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:26 LDPDC wrote: Hey, my 2c: 1) This build has been known for some time now: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2211722493?page=1 2) How to counter it? Well there is a supply. He is lying at the bottom of the ramp. Offered. He is absolutely KEY to this build which is based on the OC call for supply. If I had to counter this build I would try to detroy it. It would give at least scouting on the build. 3) Stop raging about so called "cheeses". They are taking place at the beginning of the game and as such they are the easiest to train against. What is this "supply" you speak of and you would "detroy"? Why is this KEY at that bottom of my ramp? | ||
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FMJ
United States169 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:09 MasterFischer wrote: And this is because GOOD players always shine through. What is the problem, again? Cheese can be a hard thing to deal with, but if you're dedicated to it, you can beat it. Easily. The only reason players like Idra, sometimes loose to cheese, is probably because he refuses to acknowledge cheese a part of the game, and thus refuses to practice against cheese.. because he is a solid macro mid-late game player... If Idra wants to become the top player in the world, he better be prepared and practiced alot of cheese, ALONG with all his normal macro builds and what not. Simply because the chance of somebody cheesing you WILL occur.. time and time again Are you joking? IdrA most often loses to cheese because 1) cheese is POWERFUL and 2) if it's a macro game, he will likely win it, so he sure as hell isn't losing to non-cheese. Now, let's assume for a second that, unlike your assumption, IdrA isn't an idiot. If he's losing to cheese a lot and plays 8+ hours a day for a living, what do you think he'll be practicing? Have you even WATCHED his recent matches? He holds off cheese very well, and has started cheesing himself to keep his opponents honest. But he can't hold off cheese ALL the time even if he is amazing. The reasons: 1) cheese is NOT easy to beat because it's so easy to hide in this game (unless, of course, you're a Z player) 2) there are many cheese openings for T and P and ways to trick your opponent even if they do scout and 3) cheese puts all econ and focus into 1 attack, while someone playing with any intention of macro is NOT putting all econ into units until it's been scouted (which is often too late; see point [2]). And personally, 4) cheese is often an imbalance that has not been addressed. Look at pre-nerf reapers, pre-nerf bunkers, pre-nerf pylon wall-offs, pre-nerf zealot build times, pre-nerf 4-gate, pre-nerf pylon radius, pre-nerf 1 food roaches. All of these were extremely popular cheese which, those who exploited at the time said were "part of the game". But thanks to Blizzard's good senses, they are no longer "part of the game". Do you honestly think that when the designers wanted to create a flagship eSports game, they thought, "hey, let's make it so marines + scvs can win a lot at the 5 minute point!" Do you think that they thought, "yeah, people will find that really enjoyable to watch as spectators!" If so, please stay out of the gaming industry, thanks. | ||
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Crytch
Germany135 Posts
If you kill that one depot, which is build (and oc dropped later) at the bottom of the ramp, the terran would be supply blocked for at least 1minute. | ||
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LDPDC
France17 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:30 Plansix wrote: What is this "supply" you speak of and you would "detroy"? Why is this KEY at that bottom of my ramp? This one: "10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp)" It is key because the build sacrifices an OC "supply call" to get marines faster by not making an additionnal depot. Sorry for the missing "s" in destroy, I hope you understood. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:27 Geiko wrote: In fact I started Mid masters and worked my way to top master/ Grand master. I know I asked for it but I still deserve a little credit for being an average master protoss player ^^ And credit given. As someone who is trying to get better at protoss, well done sir. Still, I don't think you believe that your skill with terran merits high masters? | ||
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Geiko
France1958 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:33 LDPDC wrote: This one: "10 depot at the bottom of the ramp (Rally your 9th worker to the bottom of the ramp)" It is key because the build sacrifices an OC "supply call" to get marines faster by not making an additionnal depot. Sorry for the missing "s" in destroy, I hope you understood. So how would you got about destroying it when I am producing non stop marines off of 3 racks ? | ||
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[Atomic]Peace
United States451 Posts
On May 17 2011 02:34 Geiko wrote: I've been wondering, what were the people on Mondragon's stream saying in the chat room when he played against me ? I wasn't in chat, so unfortunately I don't know (Ow3nd.tv uses IRC for chat). But Mondi is very mannered and his fans tend to be as well. ^^ | ||
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Geiko
France1958 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:22 Aven wrote: I'd like to point out that your loss against the zerg RGIcytoplasm was not the correct response to your build he simply made 2 banelings and you let 1 of them connect even though you could have easily focused them down He did made the right choice of spending his first gas on a baneling nest But he should not have spent his next 100 gas on metabolic boost which left him only to create 2 banelings while he could have had 6 if he skipped his ling speed, which should do the trick to stopping this push. This might be worthy of mentioning in the OP Yes, as I said in the OP, the replays given of me losing are rarely perfect defenses, and yes my marine micro is pretty bad. I do believe however that a fast banelings nest is a correct answer (although 2 spines is an easier answer in my opinion) | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote: The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through. To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game. (Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.) If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver." Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this. What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person. If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not. Comparing driving with a game built on competition? Your head is wired in strange ways. I'm surprised we don't see more all-ins nowadays among pros. Huge marine+scv-allin-ins haven't been nerfed much since they dominated GSL season 2 imo. | ||
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
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Hetz
196 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:44 Hetz wrote: So Terran just needs to build a bunker, toss needs but 1 forcefield. Zerg ofc needs to have perfect scouting, perfect timing and perfect unit composition just to have a chance. As I understand one needs to get fast gas and spend it on a baneling nest. Then you have 2 banelings out in time. As with most things zerg does, this leave no room for error. Ofc no zerg will have his baneling nest up in time. So how does a zerg counter this? Protoss needs more than one forcefield and the rush comes so early you only have one sentry out, maybe 2 the distance really far. | ||
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Krissam
Denmark189 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:21 teekesselchen wrote: Haha this is funny stuff :D Actually he's not the only one beeing successful like that. Have a look at ActionJesuz who is rank 1 Masters with only six-pool. Now ActionJesuz certainly has better overall skill and better mechanics, but it's comparable to a certain degree. Why do people think that all AJ does is 6 pool? He's a really good friend of mine, and he definitely does the straight up plays, at DH he was just smart enough to know that the only way he'd beat players so much better than him was doing coinflip games, that being said, he's not scared of cheesing like some people (me included) are | ||
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Geiko
France1958 Posts
On May 17 2011 03:44 Hetz wrote: So Terran just needs to build a bunker, toss needs but 1 forcefield. Zerg ofc needs to have perfect scouting, perfect timing and perfect unit composition just to have a chance. As I understand one needs to get fast gas and spend it on a baneling nest. Then you have 2 banelings out in time. As with most things zerg does, this leave no room for error. Ofc no zerg will have his baneling nest up in time. So how does a zerg counter this? In all honesty, Zerg has an easier time holding this off than protoss once scouted (and it is equally difficult for them to scout it). You just need to throw down 1 extra spine crawler and be prepared to pull drones. Baneling nest can be cute though in case terran decides not to cheese to transition into baneling busting the exposed ramp. | ||
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