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The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not.
User was warned for this post
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On May 17 2011 00:12 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:53 Skwid1g wrote:On May 16 2011 23:42 accaris wrote:On May 16 2011 23:00 Skwid1g wrote:
Can't see this working against any competent player Ah, like these Grandmaster players? KrasS (GM rank 15) ToD (GM rank 19) Mondragon (GM rank 21) mTwRINE (GM rank 25) RGICytoplasm (GM rank 50) Siw (GM rank 60) WarLord (GM rank 65) CN!MoMaN (GM rank 80) RAZERservyoa (GM rank 80) AiSeiplo (GM rank 90) VirusLaukyo (GM rank 110) NaViSlaViK (GM rank 111) They were caught off guard and just didn't play very well to be honest. If you see an 11rax on the lowground you should definitely be suspicious, yet the 2 replays I watched they played completely normally. No spine/bunker, no scouting to see when he'd move out, making drones when 3-4 marines kill their scouting worker, etc. Not calling them bad, but they played the situation quite poorly. I just can't see it working often once it gets semi-popular. You underestimate the strength of this build. 1 rax + 1 depot walloff can mean anything! In GSL or GSTL, mvp did that walloff and went for cloacked banshee. Another time it was MKP and he had an additional proxy rax marauders. On a 4 player map, if you scout him last, you might even not see the walloff (that happened to me when I played Geiko the first game). I have lost twice in a row to this as well as other top notch, well kwown players. Especially as protoss I feel you need crazy good micro to hold it and a little bit of luck while scouting. I will try to train against this build, but I think one need 3- to 5 games to develop the counter and have your timings down. This build is the definition of cheese: stupidly easy to execute, relying and not getting scouted and incredibly hard to stop.
Oh, I should have been more specific. I was talking about against T or Z, I don't play protoss much but I could see it being viable against a toss. It just seems really easy to hold as T or Z if you suspect an all-in, as I would with that wall-off.
I'll try it with a friend a few times to see if I'm right sometime tonight.
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BurgerAce, these are quite coherent ramblings of an angry stranger.
He doesn't brag about anything, he realises exactly what he did there. It's actually good to share things like that as it can only be good for the community in the long run.
You also need to understand that the loss on the ladder won't change anyone's life. I can tell from your words that you're taking the game overly seriously, it isn't any kind of honorable duel, this is only a game and Geiko does the right thing - has fun with it.
The example you used to back up your words is quite terrible. We don't drive for fun, there's absolutely no competition there, the consequences of aggressive driving can be much worse than consequences of smashing superior nerds. Also cheese is perfectly within the rules of the game.
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On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not.
Who said cheese was unintentional and wrong in RTS games like starcraft 2 ?
IT IS, a part of the game, and it fits in the game as well. Since, you don't scout what is he doing, he will eliminate you. This is fair.
Cutting off drivers in public or whatever is both illegal and wrong because it upsets the security and flow of the general public trafficking.
Cheese in starcraft 2 does not.
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On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not.
Man you take Starcraft WAY too seriously.
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Wow that timing is terrifying. I'll get some friends to try it vs me, I need to learn to beat cheese like this.
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wasnt Korea full of 2 raxxing scv allinn terrans for awhile?
Part of the game is defending cheese. Infact i daresay the majority of it should be. Allinns and cheese are very powerfull tools for players to use on their own accord in this game.
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This tactic is absolutely unstoppable and insane. It requires no skill and is way too powerfull. I tried it too. I got to diamond no problems (10-0) without losing anything while if I play normal T I even have trouble beating plat ppl. I played vs my friend 3 times. He is plat protoss and He coudln't stop this attack without using cannons even when he knew what was coming. Terran can still stop this but they probably won't expect it and still lose. Zerg can have a chance if they get banelings fast but with good micro you still win. As a protoss its like impossible to hold. There is one big weakness of this build though. A early scout can easily kill of your scv constructing the barracks, you will have to lower the supply depot in order to defend it. This gives him a chance to scout your base and see a all in is coming. Just everyone go use this tactic and hope blizzard will remove it as soon as possible! Just like they did with the old 4 gate.
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On May 17 2011 00:45 BlueLantern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not. Man you take Starcraft WAY too seriously.
To burgerace
When you know that you are doing something you don't like in people. You cannot disclaimer it and then continue to do it. Especially not in a dressed up fashion like that. It just makes the actual point behind it stronger. For being subtle and neutral, something I think you want to be while still saying what you want, beating around the bush like that makes it so you still need to say your actual line.
To point it out, you say something to try and soften a blow, and then you punch.
You should try to take the high ground if you want to talk down on certain things while still maintaining some form of sanity. Don't mention everything explicitely, don't disclaim to great extends it only weakens your voice. Make it so you always show that you are willing to be wrong.
Also the use of anecdotes and passages as transitions just add some icing on the cake of the general outlook your message conveys.
Maybe this was your intention all along, but I feel if you take the effort to really try and shape your message and add in funky things or certain parts with specific goals in mind, I should at least share some of my vision on it so that you could use this to play around with in the future.
I thought it was gonna be a terrible OP from the title and a bit of the messy layout but I got hooked really fast. I love "cheesy" strats. I've also seen something similar to this used in the NASL. Without mentioning names, protoss went for a fast expand on of the gsl maps and after scouting, the terran threw down 2 rax and transitioned into this all in with all his scvs pretty much.
It was explained properly and even though it can be hard to note all the tiny differences its nice they are added. Will definitely be playing around and probably incorporating this cheese into my playbook.
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Does the build call down a mule after SCV's are all pulled or something?
I don' understand why one would spend 150 minerals on an orbital to call down supply when you can build a depot for 100 + mining time lost....
If anyone cares to explain its appreciated...
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On May 17 2011 01:06 Rorschach wrote:
Does the build call down a mule after SCV's are all pulled or something?
I don' understand why one would spend 150 minerals on an orbital to call down supply when you can build a depot for 100 + mining time lost....
If anyone cares to explain its appreciated...
Not 100% positive but I'm pretty sure you can get a mule down and thus keep reinforcing with marines even after all the SCVs are pulled.
And it means that if you kill all (or very close to all) of their drones you win 100%, I guess.
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already answered:
On May 16 2011 15:49 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 15:44 meatpudding wrote:
Can you explain why you build the OC instead of a supply depot? Yes : The OC costs about as much as a supply depot (with lost mining time). At first I was building supply depots, but then I managed to fit an OC in the build without delaying my marines. The OC has won me 2 or 3 extra games where I manage to kill almost everything the opponent has, but lose all my scv and marines. You can throw down a MULE right before you reach their base, and then once the attack is over, you have another 6-7 marines to go finish him off. Also vs terran it is mandatory in island maps if he lifts up. You need MULE to destroy him in econ.
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zerg is the only race i'm having a problem with. i've beaten every protoss and terran player i've played and they can't stop it. but zerg does. ZERG OP.
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On May 17 2011 00:40 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not. Who said cheese was unintentional and wrong in RTS games like starcraft 2 ? IT IS, a part of the game, and it fits in the game as well. Since, you don't scout what is he doing, he will eliminate you. This is fair. Cutting off drivers in public or whatever is both illegal and wrong because it upsets the security and flow of the general public trafficking. Cheese in starcraft 2 does not.
I dont think anybody said something was wrong with cheese.
What ppl have disagreed about in this thread is the fact that OP decided to make the thread title Cheese your way to masters! Ill say it again, its like hes making one of those weightloss commercials where they claim "stop wasting time on excercise and just take our pill." Its annoying to see this kind of discussion on these forums, where not here to sell our build, were here to discuss a strategy, Id have no beef if this was simply [D]New TvP build.
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On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not.
I won't bother to answer on all the personal attacks, I feel like a healthy person with no such problems ^^
Regarding the main idea of your post, I rather think I am doing the comunauty a favor by releasing this ? I could have kept it for my self in order to steal a GM place next season but now more people will become aware of this cheese and it will be less effective. One less cheesy way to play the game right ?
I don't feel like I am bragging at all in my OP as well, I state in numerous occasions that this build requires 0 skill to execute and that I am a terrible player compared to the pros  I'm just telling a fun story and providing a build that I am sure a lot of people will love to use.
Even the top players don't agree with you, I've had the most childish raging somewhere around high master where people like you are all fighting for their ladder points as if their life depended on them :D
But when I reached GM ranked people, all the players were very well mannered, talked to me about the build, why I was doing this, and they all found it pretty amusing (most of them at least).
It's just a game, stop telling people how they should play it ^^
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Well, when a build allow a random crappy player like Geiko to beat any top EU player (on ladder though), it deserves a topic with a more enthusiastic title than "New TvX build".
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On May 17 2011 01:22 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:40 MasterFischer wrote:On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not. Who said cheese was unintentional and wrong in RTS games like starcraft 2 ? IT IS, a part of the game, and it fits in the game as well. Since, you don't scout what is he doing, he will eliminate you. This is fair. Cutting off drivers in public or whatever is both illegal and wrong because it upsets the security and flow of the general public trafficking. Cheese in starcraft 2 does not. I dont think anybody said something was wrong with cheese. What ppl have disagreed about in this thread is the fact that OP decided to make the thread title Cheese your way to masters! Ill say it again, its like hes making one of those weightloss commercials where they claim "stop wasting time on excercise and just take our pill." Its annoying to see this kind of discussion on these forums, where not here to sell our build, were here to discuss a strategy, Id have no beef if this was simply [D]New TvP build.
It's just a catch phrase to get more readers ^^ I even said so in the OP. People who present interviews always choose sentences from the interview which are the most shocking (example : "IdrA : "i chose zerg because Artosis is an A**hole"").
Anyone who reads the OP knows what I am talking about.
Also, I never pretended this was a way to get better at SC2, I only said this was a way to win games.
And no offence but I think everyone here prefers my title to "[D]New TvP build" which doesn't really say what this is about. And I think there is little discussion to be done on the actual BO so the [G] seems more appropriate.
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On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not.
You're missing an important point here. While you believe he is intelligent, you don't seem to see "beyond" what he is literally saying, and think about it figuratively.
I'm sure it upset him that he could so quickly go from mid-master as Protoss to #1 masters as Terran with one cheesy build, when his normal play with Terran is no where near his Protoss play. It is upsetting because most players who are in GM and M and don't cheese every game work hard at improving their overall game and can see a correlation between their improvement and a higher ladder ranking. However, builds based around early bunker play seem to circumvent this entire system, as he has shown. While his overall game with Terran wasn't good, he was able to achieve a better rating that he did with his Protoss play with one cheesy gasless build. It is very upsetting to me at least.
Day[9] talked about how 4 gate in PvP had ruined the matchup because to defend a 4 gate with anything less than a 4 gate required near perfect play, and that is why the 4 gate nerf is good because it allows people the opportunity to makes mistakes and hold the 4 gate.
The same logic applies here. You can stop this rush, but it often requires near perfect play unless you know it is coming (meaning you blind counter it, which is a roll of the dice itself as it could set you way behind mid-game because it could be anything behind the wall). He has shown through his replays that even Grandmasters have difficulty stopping this (easily countering the "any good player could stop this easy" arguements), just as Grandmasters had difficulty stopping 4 gates in PvP when they didn't 4 gate. It probably upset him so much that he wanted to create a thread on balance, but since that is frowned upon here, he created a thread about this build, and shared it with people.
So he isn't disrespecting anyone by using this build (except perhaps the people at Blizzard responsible for balancing the game). Quite the contrary, this is a veiled attempt to get people to realize that this kind of build might be overpowered, and if enough people to abuse it, perhaps Blizzard will change it, and thus reward people more appropriately on the ladder. We should salute him for this.
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On May 17 2011 01:33 Kostoglotov wrote:
Well, when a build allow a random crappy player like Geiko to beat any top EU player (on ladder though), it deserves a topic with a more enthusiastic title than "New TvX build".
I may be a crappy player, but the last time I played you on the ladder, I owned your sorry noob ass.
+ Show Spoiler +(we're friends guys, don't worry ^^)
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Honestly, it's pretty depressing to see a build that's so easy to execute, yet so difficult to hold that even top players in the world are regularly falling to it. I sincerely hope that this will just be another build that loses its teeth once the correct responses are learned by the community. Because if it isn't, and plat-level terrans can go into games with top-level GMs with a greater than 1% chance of winning, it suggests there's something seriously wrong with the game.
From a zerg perspective, the low wall-in is indicative of cheese, but it can be extremely difficult to overlord scout which cheese, especially if the terran is patrolling marines on the perimeter. I have seen this transition into a marine/SCV all-in, blue flame hellions, hellion/marauder all-in, and even 2-port banshees. Ideally, you need to see the gas timing to determine which it is going to be. But on most maps it is extremely difficult to see the geysers with an overlord.
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EPT
