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On May 17 2011 01:56 whatthefat wrote:
From a zerg perspective, the low wall-in is indicative of cheese, but it can be extremely difficult to overlord scout which cheese, especially if the terran is patrolling marines on the perimeter. I have seen this transition into a marine/SCV all-in, blue flame hellions, hellion/marauder all-in, and even 2-port banshees. Ideally, you need to see the gas timing to determine which it is going to be. But on most maps it is extremely difficult to see the geysers with an overlord.
This. Against a good terran which prevent you to scout, you DON'T have a single clue about what he is doing. And no, you can't just "play defensively" and efficiently to counter all of the all in the terran can throw at you. Countering blue flame hellions is obviously not the same deal as countering 2 port banshee...
On maps like Xel Naga, you can't scout at all once he is walled in, and once he goes back to his ramp the zerg has 40 seconds to prepare, based on what he saw on the ramp....
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The goal of this build is to take the most wins with the least skill, and he chose to do it 70 games (!) in a row. It's not fun for either player, it doesn't make him better at the game, and it's been done before. (See bit-by-bit prime.) I can't believe the general response to this guy isn't "get a life, you bm noob."
If a player approached any face-to-face game with this attitude, if he looked you in the eye and took games from you in a rude and pointless fashion, and did it 70 times in a row, and then said "You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)", your first response wouldn't be "this guy is making a valuable point about the balance of the game." It would be, "this guy has problems."
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Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed..
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I lost to this kind of strategy recently, wasnt you though. So frustrating and hard to scout as you only get scouting until around 2.50 with probe, so thanks for bringing this to the masses 
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On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed..
This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized.
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look what you did to the poor ladder xD
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R9MX9.jpg)
you should be ashamed...although not really, its just so ridicoulous how broken this game is 
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On May 17 2011 02:13 BurgerAce wrote:
The goal of this build is to take the most wins with the least skill, and he chose to do it 70 games (!) in a row. It's not fun for either player, it doesn't make him better at the game, and it's been done before. (See bit-by-bit prime.) I can't believe the general response to this guy isn't "get a life, you bm noob."
If a player approached any face-to-face game with this attitude, if he looked you in the eye and took games from you in a rude and pointless fashion, and did it 70 times in a row, and then said "You can also feel free to tell me I'm awesome btw (<3)", your first response wouldn't be "this guy is making a valuable point about the balance of the game." It would be, "this guy has problems."
I'm honnored that you are using 2/3 of your posts on TL to bash me (last third is to bash day[9]) but in all honesty, you are the one that seems to be having the most problems here :S
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On May 17 2011 02:29 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed.. This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized.
I've been wondering, what were the people on Mondragon's stream saying in the chat room when he played against me ?
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On May 17 2011 00:45 BlueLantern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:18 BurgerAce wrote:
The meticulousness of your post and build demonstrate that you are not unintelligent, and that you have thought your actions through.
To you, perfecting an all-in and taking it to the top of the ladder is an intellectual exercise. Although you understand it frustrates other humans, you surely rationalize that "cheese is a part of the game." Likewise, you can justify taking ladder points and practice time from the pros, even if you could never beat them in a fair game.
(Most people would call this "being a douchebag," and it is firmly your right to do so. I'm not writing to contest this.)
If you've ever been cut off by a bad driver in city traffic, he probably rationalized his actions the same way. "Aggressive maneuvering is a part of driving. It gets me from point-A to point-B faster. In the grand scheme of things, I didn't really hurt anybody. My ability think about other cars as obstacles, abstract from their human occupants, allows me to view driving as an intellectual, rather than an emotional, activity. It allows me to be a smarter, more efficient driver."
Some people are genetically wired not to feel empathy with strangers, and I accept this.
What I cannot tolerate is the way you shamelessly brag about it in public. It's almost as though you don't see the connection between who you are on the ladder -- an individual who lacks empathy and respect for your peers (and, dare I say, your superiors) -- and who you are as a person.
If I were to predict insincere and abusive relationships in your future, you and many readers would discount it as the incoherent ramblings of an angry stranger. But, honestly, there is a connection. Whether you understand it or not. Man you take Starcraft WAY too seriously.
what is the problem to take sc2 seriously?
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On May 17 2011 02:29 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed.. This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized.
but... a top top top player... should be able to counter ANY build thrown at him... at any time.. regardless of how new it is.. or how much he has "encountered before"
Cheese is a part of the game. Deal with it. If it wasn't. then there would be no game in the first place..
If loosing to cheese is something you experience as a top player, then you haven't practiced enough and played enough games to recognize and deal with cheese accordingly..
I'm not saying top players are bad... certaintly better than me... but the whining just gets to me ;D
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France12904 Posts
On May 17 2011 02:29 [Atomic]Peace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed.. This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized.
I have seen Laukyo and ToD replays (they are french and so do I so they are the first I looked) and it appears that these players don't wanna lose their time playing really safe (if you noticed, they scouted late, and Laukyo didn't even put his CC in his base) : 1rax reaper expand is hard countered by any build with more than 1rax early (12 rax 14 rax with few scv pushes like Bomber or MKP did) so they probably play a bit greedy/standard.
In TvT this build is not really strong especially if the terran see the wall-in, in TvP it's always the same stuff you have to do against marine all-in (use your stalker to kite on the attackpath before they reach ur base, and chrono out stalkers) but you have to scout and understand what's happening early enough. But in TvZ these builds are really strong there are a ton of agressive (and not even all-in) builds that are hard to deal with as a zerg.
Anyways you and the other guy (the NA zerg who 6/7 pooled to top 300) confirmed that "agressive" laddering works : fast games becuz allin so you can spam them, it works with all three races.
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On May 16 2011 21:30 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 13:27 Belha wrote:On May 16 2011 12:11 101toss wrote:On May 16 2011 12:09 ZeromuS wrote:So any ideas on Zerg, Terran or Protoss responses? It would be cool to compile them into a post somewhere in these forums so people using search function can find it Protoss response when seeing the cut workers+multiple rax can be quick forge+cannons, fast sentry, or 2gate lots (pulling probes is okay too since he is pulling his SCVs). Terran response is easy: just build a bunker. If you walled (which doesn't happen much in TvT but it still does), it's even easier to defend with a bunker. Jesus crist, can you READ THE OP $%&... He WALLS THE RAMP, so no scout allowed unless you get lucky and find him 1rst on close positions. These Terran cheeses ruins the game, seriusly thx for posting this so the players can find how to stop this new crap. Minimal skill for amazing results: thats not what smart people want from a good strat game. The most ironic about this, is that is easily to hold only as terran... User was warned for this post They patched the game so it takes more than two buildings to wall off, and 9 pylon scout arrives before rax goes up, and ramp at the bottom is already an indicator of what is going to happen.
Another one... Have you read the op?? Have you read all the GM´s that failed aganist this? Do you really think its fair? Stop defending this please, is a strat that allows weaker players defeat better ones with no skill involved, pretty crappy in a strategy game. And any smart player can wall at bottom then do any other build (FE, Polt, Banshees, Mass rine all in, whatever).
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This is less if a balance problem and more of a design issue. This super early agression is a 100% coin flip, but is very difficult to deal with for most players. These sorts of builds must be such a bummer for newer players who testing the waters of competive multiplayer. It also deminishes the meaning of the ladder and rankings, since no one will say he got to masters league off his solid macro.
I really hope Blizzard has some ideas on ways players can get the much needed early scouting information. I think a lot of players would sacrifice some economy to get a little more safty against these kind of builds.
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On May 17 2011 01:04 legatus legionis wrote:
To burgerace
When you know that you are doing something you don't like in people. You cannot disclaimer it and then continue to do it. [blah blah blah]
At least he's a lot more articulate and eloquent than you are. That was so painful to read it bordered on not being English.
Yes, cheese is a part of the game and happens. That's indisputable. It's also indisputable [in my opinion] that players worthy of respect are those who can play long games, because winning a long game is a cumulative process of correct and well-executed moves, while winning a short game is a one-time execution of a desperate and powerful move. Everyone knows that an event that repeatedly occurs over time is more likely due to causation than random chance or luck. A lesser player will always try to win early because they know the longer the game draws out, the more their inadequacy will render them behind. This is why I really like watching players like IdrA, because if the game goes past early game, he's almost destined to win.
I don't blame the OP for this post though. I see its intent as revealing and serving to expose an exploit rather than to boast. I'm sure he doesn't (as stated in the OP) think that he's a really great player.
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On May 17 2011 02:44 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:29 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed.. This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized. but... a top top top player... should be able to counter ANY build thrown at him... at any time.. regardless of how new it is.. or how much he has "encountered before" Cheese is a part of the game. Deal with it. If it wasn't. then there would be no game in the first place.. If loosing to cheese is something you experience as a top player, then you haven't practiced enough and played enough games to recognize and deal with cheese accordingly.. I'm not saying top players are bad... certaintly better than me... but the whining just gets to me ;D
Not necessarily. A lot of top top top players aren't necessarily so good that they can just react to any new build that comes up, but rather they have so much experience that they just know how to react from playing against it before. That's part of the reason they practice, so they have experience against every little subtle variation of every build, and they know the timings of those builds down to the second. When something new comes along, they don't have that experience, so there is usually a small hole in their play that can be exploited. Then, they analyze it, make small adjustments, like "oh, I guess I need my roach warren 10 seconds earlier if I scout bottom ramp wall-off," and the cheese is no longer as effective.
Saying a top player should be able to counter any build for the first time is insane. What defines a top player is that he sees it, analyzes it, and is prepared for it the next time, while still being able to deal with everything that he knew about before.
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I just played a game few hours ago against someone who used this build. Wall off at the bottom of your ramp is a bit too big of a sign of incoming cheese. I threw down 1 bunker and fended it off quite easily. I'd say it's pretty easy to counter in TvT. TvZ might be a different story.
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On May 17 2011 02:53 FMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:04 legatus legionis wrote:
To burgerace
When you know that you are doing something you don't like in people. You cannot disclaimer it and then continue to do it. [blah blah blah]
At least he's a lot more articulate and eloquent than you are. That was so painful to read it bordered on not being English. Yes, cheese is a part of the game and happens. That's indisputable. It's also indisputable [in my opinion] that players worthy of respect are those who can play long games, because winning a long game is a cumulative process of correct and well-executed moves, while winning a short game is a one-time execution of a desperate and powerful move. Everyone knows that an event that repeatedly occurs over time is more likely due to causation than random chance or luck. A lesser player will always try to win early because they know the longer the game draws out, the more their inadequacy will render them behind. This is why I really like watching players like IdrA, because if the game goes past early game, he's almost destined to win. I don't blame the OP for this post though. I see its intent as revealing and serving to expose an exploit rather than to boast. I'm sure he doesn't (as stated in the OP) think that he's a really great player.
And this is because GOOD players always shine through. What is the problem, again?
Cheese can be a hard thing to deal with, but if you're dedicated to it, you can beat it. Easily.
The only reason players like Idra, sometimes loose to cheese, is probably because he refuses to acknowledge cheese a part of the game, and thus refuses to practice against cheese.. because he is a solid macro mid-late game player...
If Idra wants to become the top player in the world, he better be prepared and practiced alot of cheese, ALONG with all his normal macro builds and what not. Simply because the chance of somebody cheesing you WILL occur.. time and time again
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France12904 Posts
IdrA knows how to react against cheese you know?
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On May 17 2011 02:59 Kovaz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:44 MasterFischer wrote:On May 17 2011 02:29 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On May 17 2011 02:20 MasterFischer wrote:
Obviously, top players aren't top players if they cannot beat cheese...
So if A random player can beat a top player.. whatever that means..
It either because
1) top player is bad
or
2) the cheese itself it unbalanced and forcefully "impossible" to beat due to some exploit... and it will be fixed.. This is pretty awful logic. If you take a look at the replays, some players come really close to holding it off the first time they seen it. Mondragon for example almost beats it (I saw the game live). And as the OP mentions, plenty of people hold off this build the second time they see it. So you need to consider a third possibility, that some cheeses are strong because they are new, but irrelevant once they've been popularized. but... a top top top player... should be able to counter ANY build thrown at him... at any time.. regardless of how new it is.. or how much he has "encountered before" Cheese is a part of the game. Deal with it. If it wasn't. then there would be no game in the first place.. If loosing to cheese is something you experience as a top player, then you haven't practiced enough and played enough games to recognize and deal with cheese accordingly.. I'm not saying top players are bad... certaintly better than me... but the whining just gets to me ;D Not necessarily. A lot of top top top players aren't necessarily so good that they can just react to any new build that comes up, but rather they have so much experience that they just know how to react from playing against it before. That's part of the reason they practice, so they have experience against every little subtle variation of every build, and they know the timings of those builds down to the second. When something new comes along, they don't have that experience, so there is usually a small hole in their play that can be exploited. Then, they analyze it, make small adjustments, like "oh, I guess I need my roach warren 10 seconds earlier if I scout bottom ramp wall-off," and the cheese is no longer as effective. Saying a top player should be able to counter any build for the first time is insane. What defines a top player is that he sees it, analyzes it, and is prepared for it the next time, while still being able to deal with everything that he knew about before.
Well I disagree. the absolute top will some times be able to fend off anything, due to reaction time, motor and brain skills required to do the required thinking. Even IF the build is entirely new... there are still basic mechanics and such that applies. It's not THAT hard to use your brain to try to analyze a new build ON THE FLY... yes, it takes a master... but honestly, these ppl devote their lives to it, I'm sure they'll be able to do it.
And this is thus what separates a GREAT player from the absolute best of the best. Sure they all practice a lot, but analyzing on the fly, and using the brain you were born with, to come up with the best answer to a quick problem, is what defines greatness in my opinion.
This is part of what idra also rages against, because SOME of this knowledge seems on paper, harder for zergs to excel at, analyzing on the fly, what the opponent is doing, regardless of new builds, cheese and what not..
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On May 17 2011 00:15 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 22:12 Crytch wrote:
unscoutet = works well
scoutet = hell on earth for the terran
if you can't handle with a scoutet marine scv allin, then your should practise it 2-3 times and you know how to react... I speak for toss. Even when scouted this is incredibly strong. The second time I lost to Geiko I was omfg how is this possible? This hit way before warpgate 5:10-15), especially with the new patch (tt blizzard).
When you scout it boost out stalkers nonstop until you have warpgate.
Pull all your probes, a click em and hit n run with ur stalkers with focusfire on the marines.
Kite em down and gg.
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EPT
