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I messed around with this for a bunch games and will says its harder to pull off than not (for me anyway). Many opponents were well prepared once they saw barracks/supply at the bottom of ones ramps and harassing the scv buidling the first rax causes such a headache...
I did learn a thing or two about walling off at the bottom of ones ramp. Lost a lot games from not having a tight wall and getting scouted... The visual building placement of things being tight is not an accurate representation.
Clearing the map/xelnaga towers is important to get your marines/scvs headed towards the opponents base on time without being spotted. If your timing is off you will fail pretty hard. Also as OP said impossible against terran with a bunker/repair and quite hard against a zerg in long rush distance positions... Best results have been agianst toss and if he won't engage target pylons (so many toss that early in game will have a single pylon powering all gates/core).
Maybe good as an occasional cheese at higher lvls but I had difficulties pulling it off in platinum...
If the OP has had such success I imagine likewise with a lot of practicing it one could cheese all the way to masters with just it.
My 2 cents......
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28,000 views and this thread has been linked on reddit. At this point I'd be a little scared to start spamming this build on the ladder (although I'm not beyond trying it.) Surely most everyone will know exactly what to expect by now. At what point do we confirm that this cheese has moved from obscure to popular?
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Are you kidding? How is building 3rax and a shitload of marines a new build? Yes sure it is successful because "normal" players expand and/or tech after the first initial units. Therefore, a lot of players get caught with their pants down with this. I am playing variations of early marine rushes pretty much since the game went live and I got an opponent pulling it off on me beautifully. With all the big maps nowadays its harder to do because you have to walk for ages and it is important to hit as early as possible since it is pretty much gg if you face a bunker/tank, banelings or a sentry blocking the ramp. In my experience this strategy is easiest to pull off against gold/plat players because they think they can do the fancy pro builds where they actually cannot.
User was warned for this post
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On May 17 2011 05:04 accaris wrote:
28,000 views and this thread has been linked on reddit. At this point I'd be a little scared to start spamming this build on the ladder (although I'm not beyond trying it.) Surely most everyone will know exactly what to expect by now. At what point do we confirm that this cheese has moved from obscure to popular?
On it was in style during GSL season 3. Every third match up or so and BitbyBitPrime. Oh...BitbyBitPrime.
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On May 17 2011 03:27 Geiko wrote:
Theorycrafting at its best ^^ I see NO way, that you could ever take down that supply depot with anything else then a 6 pool. I don't even see how you could imagine this to be a possibility. If you're talking about taking it down with units while I am gone from my base and pushing your ramp, then I don't care, I've already got my 27 supply worth of scvs and marines, and I'm not planing on making more. You should rather be using your army to defend your base IMO.
OK, my theorycrafting is not backed by practice. Only 6 pool and canon rush would allow such a counter (and 6 pool would not be such a good idea). It's a shame since this depot is so key ^^ stupid reality!
Have you ever been countered by 2 gates inbase or canon rush? If yes, how did it fare against your build?
Edit: by countered I mean "blindly countered" obviously.
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On May 17 2011 05:10 RainerZufall wrote:
Are you kidding? How is building 3rax and a shitload of marines a new build? Yes sure it is successful because "normal" players expand and/or tech after the first initial units. Therefore, a lot of players get caught with their pants down with this. I am playing variations of early marine rushes pretty much since the game went live and I got an opponent pulling it off on me beautifully. With all the big maps nowadays its harder to do because you have to walk for ages and it is important to hit as early as possible since it is pretty much gg if you face a bunker/tank, banelings or a sentry blocking the ramp. In my experience this strategy is easiest to pull off against gold/plat players because they think they can do the fancy pro builds where they actually cannot.
User was warned for this post
Read the build instead, this is not just your normal "lulz, build 3 rax and make marines, then win". It's a specific build made to get a ridiculous amount of marines as early as possible without the opponent being able to scout it.
I've played against tons of terrans going 3 rax, but nothing has been even close to as devastating as this.
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On May 17 2011 05:28 LDPDC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 03:27 Geiko wrote:
Theorycrafting at its best ^^ I see NO way, that you could ever take down that supply depot with anything else then a 6 pool. I don't even see how you could imagine this to be a possibility. If you're talking about taking it down with units while I am gone from my base and pushing your ramp, then I don't care, I've already got my 27 supply worth of scvs and marines, and I'm not planing on making more. You should rather be using your army to defend your base IMO.
OK, my theorycrafting is not backed by practice. Only 6 pool and canon rush would allow such a counter (and 6 pool would not be such a good idea). It's a shame since this depot is so key ^^ stupid reality! Have you ever been countered by 2 gates inbase or canon rush? If yes, how did it fare against your build? Edit: by countered I mean "blindly countered" obviously.
This build is cheese proof as you get your scv at the ramp and have a full wall off very soon.
You see any probe that tries to sneak up your ramp and can react accordingly.
Pulling SCVs tu repair in case of 6 pool and out-of-base proxies will win you the game easily.
Of course I am bad and have lost to 6 pool once in the 2 or 3 times I have seen it, but it's because I haven't practised much against it.
Also, something I didn't add in the OP, as soon as you see the scouting worker harass you, if you don't have time to finish the barracks select your worker and press T and then attack his worker with your SCV while pulling another one to finish the barracks. That is the best way to deal with eatly harass without losing an SCV.
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On May 17 2011 05:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:04 accaris wrote:
28,000 views and this thread has been linked on reddit. At this point I'd be a little scared to start spamming this build on the ladder (although I'm not beyond trying it.) Surely most everyone will know exactly what to expect by now. At what point do we confirm that this cheese has moved from obscure to popular? On it was in style during GSL season 3. Every third match up or so and BitbyBitPrime. Oh...BitbyBitPrime.
BitByBit did a standard 2rax vs zerg. That is not what this thread is discussing.
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So i did this about 45 times today, and here are some observations.
1. it is ridiculously strong against toss. Like 95% win ratio, unless they immediatly put cannons down.
2. Really good against terran if clear watch towers so they dont bunker while your crossing the map i would say 80% win ratio
3. Mediocre against zerg. 50% i think. Basically a coin flip, zergs are too used to dealing with cheese like this, i would say 6/10 times they just plant a couple spines when they see the bottom of the ramp walled. This is enough to push it back. Most zergs will have a queen plus 6+ lings when it hits and 2 spines. I have effectively dealt with this by pushing into the main and hopefully he transfers his drones sloppily and I can kill a bunch. Either way, i find this way less effective against them, than any of the other races.
4. A good cheese, can take games off just about anyone of any skill. Great for a tournmanet series or games. Ive been looking for an easy to do cheese that i can rely on to steal a game now and again, this is definitly it.
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It is a really good build for team games too :D
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People quit calling this build the new 4gate of terran. That is so far from the truth as this build is completely allin with all the workers included in the push.
Also a 4gate looks like a normal build from toss with the exception of how much chrono is banked.
This build on the other hand only works because the opponent cannot scout the main and see what your up to (except with a lucky overlord). This build seems totally dependent on your opponent not knowing its coming and for that reason I would think its not OP but only time will tell.
Another thing to note is it may not be OP at the highest lvls but if it starts to dominate the ladder scene blizz will prob introduce a fix.
For that reason I hope it doesn't take off in popularity as I can't think of a good fix for it except maybe tweaking supply call down which I believe is a big part of what this strategies success hinges on...
The OP also noted how this build is best agianst toss and I feel that is because toss early game has been nerfed so much since beta. Slower zealot build time, 60 second to 120 to 140 sec WG research time. Even forge fast expands being slightly nerfed with 15sec build time increase to the forge.
End of random thoughts running through head....
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lol, my buddy tried to do this build to me. i stopped it.
suck on that cheesers
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if I can give a piece of advice to all of u wanting to use this cheese vs protoss..
don't put ur wall at the bottom of the ramp
it just makes them want to get fast stalkers and move out and pressure it
and they see it coming and they generally are on their way to 3 or 4 gate anyways because they want to either stop ur fast pressure (which is likely with that low wall), or kill ur wall anyways
u might not get this reaction at lower leagues but when the leagues get higher that's what an intelligent protoss should do imo...
then again lots of ppl even in higher leagues don't adapt so well i guess? lol, i dunno
frankly im surprised this was working vs protoss in GM
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On May 17 2011 06:53 travis wrote:
if I can give a piece of advice to all of u wanting to use this cheese vs protoss..
don't put ur wall at the bottom of the ramp
it just makes them want to get fast stalkers and move out and pressure it
and they see it coming and they generally are on their way to 3 or 4 gate anyways because they want to either stop ur fast pressure (which is likely with that low wall), or kill ur wall anyways
u might not get this reaction at lower leagues but when the leagues get higher that's what an intelligent protoss should do imo...
then again lots of ppl even in higher leagues don't adapt so well i guess? lol, i dunno
frankly im surprised this was working vs protoss in GM
I try to encourage them to stalker rush my wall. And take another way to their base. This works best on XNC and cross position metalopolis where you have 2 distinct roads. If you can go up their ramp when they have 2 stalkers shooting at your depot, you've won the game.
However I do agree with you that this gets harder to pull off vs protoss the higher the rank (whereas it is the contrary against terran, GM terrans seem to always want to FE no matter what)
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I don't think this build is viable in TvT. It's so easy to scout (you know it's coming when you see the supply drop) and drop down a bunker, and if the attack doesn't happen by ~5:30 he'll be so far behind, FE or not, you'll be able to just go and kill him.
EDIT: Should say the build is clever, but is pure cheese, i.e. if scouted, you die.
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This looks pretty scary, as its similar to the 2rax all in with a quick wall in, but its smarter than that. Its preventing any type of scouting at all almost (unless you are close position or 2 player map and he scouts early, 9 Pylon scout). If protoss is able to sneak in before you drop the rax, whats the best way that protoss will deal with this? Forge or fast sentries or Stalkers? Also since you posted this it will likely become rather popular and people will know whats up. Also this wall in is rather suspicious looking in TvP and TvT.
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just tested that build a bit.
i dont really like it, there are too much possibilities, where you just flat out lose.
-overlord scouts you
-zerg has a spine@nat
-terran has a bunker (which he could build blind when he´s teching)
-useless on taldarim altar (you cant wall main with depot +raxx)
-useless when you run into stalker poke
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I *really* like the use of calldown: supplies in this build. The first time I've ever seen it in an actual build!
As for the build itself, I encountered it today on ladder after reading this thread. I wasn't really prepared for all the scvs and he micro'ed them well (protecting the rines). No spines = dead zerg.
I was impressed and smiled.
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I just faced this build on ladder (Z), and it doesn't seem too strong in the matchup. I went 15 hatch, scouted the wall-off, and immediately dropped a spine, and pumped a mix of lings and drones, plus a second spine when I scouted the all-in. After that, all it took was a bit of ling/drone micro and abusing spine range/dps and the all-in was blocked. It just isn't capable of doing much against a Z who recognizes how all-in your are, pulls all drones, and defends a spine crawler.
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wouldn't it be easier to just wall of at the top, proxy 2 additional rax
to not make your enemy suspicious?
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EPT
