Sadly, that thing will never appear in multiplayer. Which is too, too bad.
Yeah I know, HoTS maybe? wink, wink Blizzard.
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Ballpit
3 Posts
Sadly, that thing will never appear in multiplayer. Which is too, too bad. Yeah I know, HoTS maybe? wink, wink Blizzard. | ||
andrewlt
United States7645 Posts
| ||
AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On March 25 2011 23:10 Axeinst wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2011 18:25 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: Terran wants to do a 1 rax expand, which imo is really the only viable non-cheese build againt' Any proof? There is no reason to believe that 2rax expand isnt as viable, i would say 1rax expand is more dangerous actually. In this game fast expanding is not really useful anyway, like it was in Brood war. well in my experience 2 rax expand puts you behind economically while not having a chance to do damage against a good protoss. E.g., if you 2 rax expo protoss can easily 1 gate FE without taking damage from pressure. | ||
cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On March 24 2011 11:24 spbelky wrote: As some previous posters said, Phoenix or Muta can give a Protoss or Zerg complete air + map control, meaning things such as banshees/medivacs for transportation are completely out of the question. Also previously mentioned, Terran units are SLOW, unbelievably slow. Aside from the Reaper or Hellion, every Terran ground unit is 2.25 speed or slower. (I hope everyone that doesn't play Terran understands how slow 2.25 actually is) So what about the Reaper or Hellion? Well, they both succeed at killing two things, workers, and light units. Sooo. workers, and Zerglings/Zealots. Luckily for us though, Zerglings on creep rape hellions, and Zealots are always accompanied by stalkers or sentries. So we have mobile units that are good at harassing workers, but suck at pretty much everything else. This brings us back to the original problem, Terran doesn't have any mobile forces that are actually good in combat, so to deal with long travel distances on larger maps, Terran pretty much just has to deal with being slow, there is no real alternative. To compare, Zerg typical ground units OFF CREEP / ON CREEP (assuming full upgrades) Zergling - 4.7 / 6.1 Roach - 3.0 / 3.9 (often times I hear zerg complain about how ungodly slow roaches are without speed upgrade. Well, an unupgraded roach is 2.25, which is exactly what marine/marauder/tanks are... think about that one) Hydra - 2.25 / 3.375 (again I often hear complaints about how slow Hydras are off creep. They are the SAME speed as marine/marauder/tanks) Infestor - 2.5 Ultralisk - 2.95 / 3.835 Baneling - 2.95 / 3.835 Every single zerg unit is faster than any Terran ground unit (excluding reaper/hellion), and the "omg slow" zerg units (unupgraded roach/hydra/infestor) are still just as fast if not faster than every Terran unit. Luckily when we do actually engage, we have stim to compensate, but we can't exactly stim our way across the map when we need to travel. Remember, these speeds are not relative to how they impact actual engagements, but how the impact travel time (because I would argue Zerg units NEED to be this fast in order to engage properly). Now for the Protoss, Protoss is closer to Terran than Zerg, but there are still quite a few units that are both good in combat AND fast. Zealot - 2.75* Stalker - 2.95* Sentry - 2.25 High Templar - 1.88 (sadface) Dark Templar - 2.81* Archon - 2.81* Immortal - 2.25 Colossus - 2.25 So 4 of the 8 Protoss ground units are faster than the typical Terran ground unit, and now just for good measure I'll list all the Terran ground units because I can Hellion - 4.25 Reaper - 3.83 Marine - 2.25 Marauder - 2.25 Ghost - 2.25 Tank - 2.25 Thor - 1.88 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Now that we've clearly established that Terran units on average are slower than both Protoss and Zerg (remember, we're still talking about speed in terms of transportation), let's talk about other means of transportation. As previously mentioned in this post and others, on larger maps both Protoss and Zerg tend to favor getting units like Muta and Phoenix to negate medivacs AND maintain air control, so we'll take medivacs mobility out of the picture (for now). What other modes of transportation does each race have if they don't want to hoof it on ground? Zerg - Their units are already blazing fast, especially on creep, but when they need an alternative, there is always the underused NYDUS worm! The Nydus Worm (or worms) can transport an entire army across the map in seconds. Protoss - Warp Gate units can be warped in anywhere the Protoss can supply a power field with a pylon OR Warp Prism. Also, the very underused Mothership Recall. Often an underused ability because the Mothership itself is so slow, and Protoss love keep their mothership with their army, but if separated the Mothership can warp in the Protoss army to its location from anywhere on the map. Terran - ... umm... uhhh... ... OK then. So now let's bring up the medivac, because I know a lot of you want to argue that it is viable despite the mutas and phoenix on the map. If the Terran loads up units in to a medivac(s) (whether it be 8 marines, or 16 medivacs with his entire army) he risks losing every single unit if intercepted by phoenix / mutas in the wrong place. Similarly, it's not like Zergs don't have overlord upgrades or Protoss don't have Warp Prisms. I'm not going to argue that Overlords or Warp Prisms compare to medivacs as UNITS, because the medivac is clearly the winner (imo), but in terms of TRANSPORTATION only, which is what this thread is about (i think?), I think the "dropship" option is about even across the three races, right? I hate to do this, but not exactly... Speeds - Remember this is all about transportation speed. Warp Prism - 2.5 (3.375 upgraded) Medivac - 2.5 Overlord - 1.88 (poor ovies) I'm running out of steam to keep writing, and I actually wrote this hours ago but forgot to submit, damnit. ...you do realize that generally, Terran units are far more efficient? If they were as fast as Zerg units, it wouldn't even be fair. Not to mention there's stim + concussive shell which negates a lot of the speed advantage that Protoss and Zerg have. Zerg units aren't even that fast compared to BW. Lings, hydras, even lurkers were all pretty fast on the ground moving around (don't even need creep). While it gave Zerg an obvious mobility advantage, it certainly doesn't mean Terran can't compete. In fact, before I watched less and less BW Proleague, Flash was rolling Zergs left and right. | ||
Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
| ||
abominable
101 Posts
why do you think that repair, planetary fortress with armour upgrade and missile turrets are so powerful? you need to use them. once you hit 200/200 you should have pleeeeeeeenty of money to go crazy with turrets. they stop almost any kind of air threat or at least slows it down enough for you to retaliate. if the enemy gets his colossus deathball army to your base then you have no excuse... they're as immobile as terran mech. against zerg, make sure you keep pushing back the creep. making late game hellions will keep the opponent busy, because when he's defending multiple bases your hellions can do far more damage than a dropship and they're almost impossible to catch (even mutas are too slow to catch them). | ||
AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On March 26 2011 03:19 cHaNg-sTa wrote: Show nested quote + On March 24 2011 11:24 spbelky wrote: As some previous posters said, Phoenix or Muta can give a Protoss or Zerg complete air + map control, meaning things such as banshees/medivacs for transportation are completely out of the question. Also previously mentioned, Terran units are SLOW, unbelievably slow. Aside from the Reaper or Hellion, every Terran ground unit is 2.25 speed or slower. (I hope everyone that doesn't play Terran understands how slow 2.25 actually is) So what about the Reaper or Hellion? Well, they both succeed at killing two things, workers, and light units. Sooo. workers, and Zerglings/Zealots. Luckily for us though, Zerglings on creep rape hellions, and Zealots are always accompanied by stalkers or sentries. So we have mobile units that are good at harassing workers, but suck at pretty much everything else. This brings us back to the original problem, Terran doesn't have any mobile forces that are actually good in combat, so to deal with long travel distances on larger maps, Terran pretty much just has to deal with being slow, there is no real alternative. To compare, Zerg typical ground units OFF CREEP / ON CREEP (assuming full upgrades) Zergling - 4.7 / 6.1 Roach - 3.0 / 3.9 (often times I hear zerg complain about how ungodly slow roaches are without speed upgrade. Well, an unupgraded roach is 2.25, which is exactly what marine/marauder/tanks are... think about that one) Hydra - 2.25 / 3.375 (again I often hear complaints about how slow Hydras are off creep. They are the SAME speed as marine/marauder/tanks) Infestor - 2.5 Ultralisk - 2.95 / 3.835 Baneling - 2.95 / 3.835 Every single zerg unit is faster than any Terran ground unit (excluding reaper/hellion), and the "omg slow" zerg units (unupgraded roach/hydra/infestor) are still just as fast if not faster than every Terran unit. Luckily when we do actually engage, we have stim to compensate, but we can't exactly stim our way across the map when we need to travel. Remember, these speeds are not relative to how they impact actual engagements, but how the impact travel time (because I would argue Zerg units NEED to be this fast in order to engage properly). Now for the Protoss, Protoss is closer to Terran than Zerg, but there are still quite a few units that are both good in combat AND fast. Zealot - 2.75* Stalker - 2.95* Sentry - 2.25 High Templar - 1.88 (sadface) Dark Templar - 2.81* Archon - 2.81* Immortal - 2.25 Colossus - 2.25 So 4 of the 8 Protoss ground units are faster than the typical Terran ground unit, and now just for good measure I'll list all the Terran ground units because I can Hellion - 4.25 Reaper - 3.83 Marine - 2.25 Marauder - 2.25 Ghost - 2.25 Tank - 2.25 Thor - 1.88 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Now that we've clearly established that Terran units on average are slower than both Protoss and Zerg (remember, we're still talking about speed in terms of transportation), let's talk about other means of transportation. As previously mentioned in this post and others, on larger maps both Protoss and Zerg tend to favor getting units like Muta and Phoenix to negate medivacs AND maintain air control, so we'll take medivacs mobility out of the picture (for now). What other modes of transportation does each race have if they don't want to hoof it on ground? Zerg - Their units are already blazing fast, especially on creep, but when they need an alternative, there is always the underused NYDUS worm! The Nydus Worm (or worms) can transport an entire army across the map in seconds. Protoss - Warp Gate units can be warped in anywhere the Protoss can supply a power field with a pylon OR Warp Prism. Also, the very underused Mothership Recall. Often an underused ability because the Mothership itself is so slow, and Protoss love keep their mothership with their army, but if separated the Mothership can warp in the Protoss army to its location from anywhere on the map. Terran - ... umm... uhhh... ... OK then. So now let's bring up the medivac, because I know a lot of you want to argue that it is viable despite the mutas and phoenix on the map. If the Terran loads up units in to a medivac(s) (whether it be 8 marines, or 16 medivacs with his entire army) he risks losing every single unit if intercepted by phoenix / mutas in the wrong place. Similarly, it's not like Zergs don't have overlord upgrades or Protoss don't have Warp Prisms. I'm not going to argue that Overlords or Warp Prisms compare to medivacs as UNITS, because the medivac is clearly the winner (imo), but in terms of TRANSPORTATION only, which is what this thread is about (i think?), I think the "dropship" option is about even across the three races, right? I hate to do this, but not exactly... Speeds - Remember this is all about transportation speed. Warp Prism - 2.5 (3.375 upgraded) Medivac - 2.5 Overlord - 1.88 (poor ovies) I'm running out of steam to keep writing, and I actually wrote this hours ago but forgot to submit, damnit. ...you do realize that generally, Terran units are far more efficient? If they were as fast as Zerg units, it wouldn't even be fair. Not to mention there's stim + concussive shell which negates a lot of the speed advantage that Protoss and Zerg have. Zerg units aren't even that fast compared to BW. Lings, hydras, even lurkers were all pretty fast on the ground moving around (don't even need creep). While it gave Zerg an obvious mobility advantage, it certainly doesn't mean Terran can't compete. In fact, before I watched less and less BW Proleague, Flash was rolling Zergs left and right. I wouldn't try to make the BW argument. TvP is completely different in sc2; the standard terran composition is marine marauder viking medivac, which is NOT more cost efficient than colossus stalker zealot. Bigger maps hurt terran's ability to apply pressure in the early/mid game but do not hurt protoss's ability to do the same due to the warp in mechanic. | ||
Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
2 Land halfway across the map 3 Produce & attack 4 Profit Time to get creative Terran people, you have loads of options, try 'em out! | ||
repsac
91 Posts
| ||
Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On March 26 2011 03:19 cHaNg-sTa wrote:...you do realize that generally, Terran units are far more efficient? If they were as fast as Zerg units, it wouldn't even be fair. Not to mention there's stim + concussive shell which negates a lot of the speed advantage that Protoss and Zerg have. Zerg units aren't even that fast compared to BW. Lings, hydras, even lurkers were all pretty fast on the ground moving around (don't even need creep). While it gave Zerg an obvious mobility advantage, it certainly doesn't mean Terran can't compete. In fact, before I watched less and less BW Proleague, Flash was rolling Zergs left and right. You misunderstood the entire topic. It's about how long it takes to move your army from your base to the enemy's. It's not about how fast units are in the battle. | ||
Strut
United States182 Posts
On March 24 2011 05:46 PredY wrote: i don't think the issue is too big i mean we could see a few small changes in the future (faster medivacs - yes, they nerfed their speed before because of small maps, faster siege mode, perhaps even some kind of raven buff - i'd love to see seeker missile buff, faster projectile or less mana) but i think it's ok. Just practise and find new ways, like hellions usuage during the mid and lategame since they are superfast etc. I've been expecting some minor changes to seeker missle for a long time but I'm starting to doubt it will ever happen. I wonder if they would consider adding range to it, since it was nerfed a long time ago. I'm still unsure why except that it was because of 2v2. Completely agree that that map size is not a big issue, lots more games need to be played. | ||
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On March 26 2011 04:17 Morphs wrote: 1 Lift off buildings 2 Land halfway across the map 3 Produce & attack 4 Profit Time to get creative Terran people, you have loads of options, try 'em out! You want them to put their production facilities out in the open? Away from all of their techlabs/favourable terrain? As much as I like to bash on terrans and protoss, this isn't the time nor the thread. Your suggestion is dangerous and outright insane. | ||
Albrithe
Canada187 Posts
On March 26 2011 04:31 Chaosvuistje wrote: Show nested quote + On March 26 2011 04:17 Morphs wrote: 1 Lift off buildings 2 Land halfway across the map 3 Produce & attack 4 Profit Time to get creative Terran people, you have loads of options, try 'em out! You want them to put their production facilities out in the open? Away from all of their techlabs/favourable terrain? As much as I like to bash on terrans and protoss, this isn't the time nor the thread. Your suggestion is dangerous and outright insane. I dunno, I don't think it'd be legit to outright shit all over what he's suggesting. Lets say you're in a mid game position after opening up a primarily rax army, like the one suggested in the day9 daily where he keeps on constant mid-sized marine aggression... finding link... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200525 Now your attacks are starting to become not as effective as he got colossi/HT's. Obviously you aren't going to float them so his base is blocked off or something, but you can choose your addon's carefully so that you could throw down factories or starports and effectively transition into some late game plans while being able to keep a lot of pressure on with that in-your-face marine production... It doesn't seem like you should just label this as "outright insane" so easily. Have you ever seen anyone even TRY this, let alone do it and it fail as miserably as you suggest? I only just recently started posting on TL, and this overbearing theme of negativity towards trying new things in a strategy forum is as discouraging as it is sad. | ||
Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
Regardless I think the key to Terran being even on larger maps lies in the Tank and the Medivac. I think the fact that Terran has no warp-in/ mass larva type things to boost them is what makes them awesome and unique from the other races in that Terrans strength comes from their ability to accumulate more resources faster (M.U.L.E.S.) and getting up a powerful Mech/Biomech force that can roll through the enemy with a 2:1 or more cost ratio like BW I mean tanks in BW.....70 damage you watch a friggin BW Tank vs ANYTHING and they friggin destroy stuff so fast. Basically think of the Thor damage with splash. An HSM buff would be amazing too I mean I used to go mass Marine/Raven when I was low Diamond but the higher I got Zergs have such fast reaction time that a HSM can't really hit ANY unit they have. Also Banelings are a lot more potent against Marine/Raven then Lukers were against SK Terran. With SK Terran you can just avoid the Lurkers.....you can't just avoid Banelings especially if he's got Infestors and with the recent Infestor buffs Marine/Raven is even less useful. | ||
SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
Build your new production buildings closer to your heavily defended forward expansions and experiment with the new terran late game more before you come complaining that terran is too immobile, Its a bit ridiculous at this point in time. | ||
Douillos
France3195 Posts
On March 26 2011 04:31 Chaosvuistje wrote: Show nested quote + On March 26 2011 04:17 Morphs wrote: 1 Lift off buildings 2 Land halfway across the map 3 Produce & attack 4 Profit Time to get creative Terran people, you have loads of options, try 'em out! You want them to put their production facilities out in the open? Away from all of their techlabs/favourable terrain? As much as I like to bash on terrans and protoss, this isn't the time nor the thread. Your suggestion is dangerous and outright insane. That does sound like a risky idea, but he's right to say, get creative. Maybe more PF usage? Terrans strenght lies in part in its defensive structures! Why not hard contain with a planet fortress? Id find the QQ of "imbalanced map" is pretty lame. It's just another way of playing, and I think the main thing is that 1 base timing attacks are so much more difficult to execute, this T's winrate going down (because that's what most terran's have been doing). Get over it, practice more on these maps, and find new things to do. P.S: i remember offensive sensor tower usage in a game, that's a fucking game breaker. Edit; even spamming them for total map coverage could be a thing to do end game. | ||
Daystar
United Kingdom33 Posts
On March 26 2011 04:05 abominable wrote: once you hit 200/200 you should have pleeeeeeeenty of money to go crazy with turrets. they stop almost any kind of air threat or at least slows it down enough for you to retaliate. Im not sure if you were being serious there or not. In my experience the later the game goes (200/200) the worse Turrets become. Mutas/Voidrays render them useless when upgraded. You cannot defend a far expansion with just Turrets and they do not give you anywhere near enough time to ship your units over there to help out. Prime example being the new Shattered Temple, the 3rd expansion, i usually "try" to defend it with Turrets and if im mid map trying to take the gold and Z/P run theyre Voids/Mutas to the 3rd, the 3rd will be gone or extremely devestated before i even get there. One of two things i would like to see, either Terran gets a comparable air unit, Banshee would be good if they could shoot air-air, do what they did to the BC ground damage, reduce theyre dmg air-air to make them not OP and make them restricted to ground fire when cloaked (is that even possible?) Or buff turrets to make them worth it, yes they are "free" units late game, but theyre not enough of a detterent to an air army. | ||
skatbone
United States1005 Posts
So much of this thread seems to be about the capacity of Terran to defend muta harass on big maps. While it might sound a bit insane, I find that just attacking the Zerg is one of the best defenses to muta harass-pull your workers to a safe place, then attack right when they move into your base. If they are heavy on mutas, their ground forces will be thinner. Pull them back to defend their base. If they are harassing your mineral lines, makes sure you are taking a well-timed third at one of the other mains on a big map, and just move your scvs there. It's not easy, but having played Terran for 6 months and now moved on to playing random, I think mass muta is a dangerous strategy for Zerg so long as the Terran moves out with enough marines and thors to accompany the tanks. Mutas are paper and the heavier their investment in mutas, the easier their base will drop. | ||
Douillos
France3195 Posts
On March 26 2011 06:43 Daystar wrote: Show nested quote + On March 26 2011 04:05 abominable wrote: once you hit 200/200 you should have pleeeeeeeenty of money to go crazy with turrets. they stop almost any kind of air threat or at least slows it down enough for you to retaliate. Im not sure if you were being serious there or not. In my experience the later the game goes (200/200) the worse Turrets become. Mutas/Voidrays render them useless when upgraded. You cannot defend a far expansion with just Turrets and they do not give you anywhere near enough time to ship your units over there to help out. Prime example being the new Shattered Temple, the 3rd expansion, i usually "try" to defend it with Turrets and if im mid map trying to take the gold and Z/P run theyre Voids/Mutas to the 3rd, the 3rd will be gone or extremely devestated before i even get there. One of two things i would like to see, either Terran gets a comparable air unit, Banshee would be good if they could shoot air-air, do what they did to the BC ground damage, reduce theyre dmg air-air to make them not OP and make them restricted to ground fire when cloaked (is that even possible?) Or buff turrets to make them worth it, yes they are "free" units late game, but theyre not enough of a detterent to an air army. One thor in each mineral line will discourage any muta ball! add a few turrets and I cant imagine any void's trying to break you. | ||
Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
On March 26 2011 16:03 Douillos wrote: Show nested quote + On March 26 2011 06:43 Daystar wrote: On March 26 2011 04:05 abominable wrote: once you hit 200/200 you should have pleeeeeeeenty of money to go crazy with turrets. they stop almost any kind of air threat or at least slows it down enough for you to retaliate. Im not sure if you were being serious there or not. In my experience the later the game goes (200/200) the worse Turrets become. Mutas/Voidrays render them useless when upgraded. You cannot defend a far expansion with just Turrets and they do not give you anywhere near enough time to ship your units over there to help out. Prime example being the new Shattered Temple, the 3rd expansion, i usually "try" to defend it with Turrets and if im mid map trying to take the gold and Z/P run theyre Voids/Mutas to the 3rd, the 3rd will be gone or extremely devestated before i even get there. One of two things i would like to see, either Terran gets a comparable air unit, Banshee would be good if they could shoot air-air, do what they did to the BC ground damage, reduce theyre dmg air-air to make them not OP and make them restricted to ground fire when cloaked (is that even possible?) Or buff turrets to make them worth it, yes they are "free" units late game, but theyre not enough of a detterent to an air army. One thor in each mineral line will discourage any muta ball! add a few turrets and I cant imagine any void's trying to break you. I know that works but that means that you will be behind for each Thor defending. There is a reason why in an upfront fight, static defense is always super cost effective. Send 1 Ultra at a lone Planetary Fortess, which one do you think will win and by how much? | ||
| ||
Next event in 5h 20m
[ Submit Event ] |
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War League of Legends Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Other Games Organizations StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
ESL Pro Tour
World Team League
ESL Pro Tour
Reynor vs MaNa
GunGFuBanDa vs Spirit
Elazer vs Krystianer
SKillous vs MaxPax
Big Brain Bouts
Korean StarCraft League
Afreeca Starleague
hero vs Soulkey
AfreecaTV Pro Series
Reynor vs Cure
ESL Pro Tour
World Team League
ESL Pro Tour
[ Show More ] BSL
Zhanhun vs DragOn
Dewalt vs Sziky
CSO Cup
Replay Cast
Sparkling Tuna Cup
ESL Pro Tour
World Team League
ESL Pro Tour
BSL
Gypsy vs Bonyth
Mihu vs XiaoShuai
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
ESL Pro Tour
ESL Pro Tour
|
|