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I was reading IMMVP's TSL interview and he said something about Terran's difficulty on long distance maps
here's what he said to be exact"
+ Show Spoiler +Q: You won the GSL January 2011. But you were eliminated from Code S by losing two fast games to Julyzerg. What do you think about the current state of Code S? Are you confident you will be able to do well in future GSLs?
With longer starting distances on the new GSL maps, it has become very bad for Terran, I think it’s pretty obvious when all the Terrans were eliminated from GSL. If Terran gets nerfed again, I think it will be hard to produce good results. I’ve even considered changing races for the next tournament, but I’m not sure about what I’ll do yet.
I haven't been playing sc2 for awhile, but I do watch streams and tournaments on a daily basis, so I was wondering if its true what he said about long distance maps becoming very bad for terrans.
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Terran units are slow. The longer the map, the less opportunity they have to be aggressive, so they have to expand. However, the other races can do either, and zerg in particular can benefit more from no aggression, but they also can just as easily be super aggressive themselves on larger maps because their units are that much faster.
To put it simply - the slow a race's units, or production distance is (protoss can still 4gate on large maps) - the worse larger maps are for that race.
I personally think SC2's design is horrible in the regard that maps differences can significantly change game balance. I think it would be better if all the races had different ways of exploiting map features, so the map variety would encourage different styles rather than one race always winning on particular maps.
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It is true to an extent, but the difference matter little in lower level play. The problem is that terran can't reinforce as quickly or rush as fast in the early game. Just shows how the slightest change can turn around a match up
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In my opinion if the maps had forward mining bases the Terran would be able to mitigate some of this deficiency by taking those forward bases with PFs. Long rush distances then could be partially "fixed" for the Terran player if they take those forward bases and not expand parallel to opponent.
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The problem is the siege/unsiege time. In order to move across a long map vs Z you need to siege leapfrog. If it takes 10 siege/unsieges to get to your opponent, then he's going to have twice as much stuff as you by the time you get there. Add to this the fact that mutalisks cut off reinforcements.
Personally, I've already downvoted Terminus after playing it only once. I didn't really see any non-cheesy way to win on the map if I were playing an equally skilled opponent.
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Hmm i'm not a Terran player (anymore(bw)) but couldn't Terran just play bw ish on bigger maps? i mean terran had the same issue with not a lot of mobility but that didn't really stop them from doing just as good.
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BW had faster dropships, protoss didn't have warpin, and zerg didn't have queens.
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On March 24 2011 03:40 StalinRusH wrote:
Hmm i'm not a Terran player (anymore(bw)) but couldn't Terran just play bw ish on bigger maps? i mean terran had the same issue with not a lot of mobility but that didn't really stop them from doing just as good.
Didn't you watch BW? Marine Medic Tank. Nothing has changed. The only thing more mobile then this was SK Terran which sucks because Ravens can only hold 1 HSM even with full energy bar. And HSM is 125 energy which is a crap ton. Further more compared to Sci Vessels Ravens are Ubber Slow.
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GinDo, like someone said before, in BW, Zerg did not have creep and larvae inject, and Protoss did not have warp in. I thought I would enjoy longer maps as a Terran player, but I have found that because my units are so unbelievably slow I can't put on agression and by the time I move out they will already of had more units. Also, when a P attacks you, the distance of the map does not matter, Protoss has the advantage right now and I can't stand it. Zerg has creep, and any decent Zerg knows how to spread this (3.3k+ in mind). Also, in BW, we had vultures, hellions are retarded and die to banelings and all of protoss units except zealots and probes.
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On March 24 2011 04:08 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 03:40 StalinRusH wrote:
Hmm i'm not a Terran player (anymore(bw)) but couldn't Terran just play bw ish on bigger maps? i mean terran had the same issue with not a lot of mobility but that didn't really stop them from doing just as good. Didn't you watch BW? Marine Medic Tank. Nothing has changed. The only thing more mobile then this was SK Terran which sucks because Ravens can only hold 1 HSM even with full energy bar. And HSM is 125 energy which is a crap ton. Further more compared to Sci Vessels Ravens are Ubber Slow.
Ah yes, however, ravens in large numbers are also nigh invincible to any kind of counter fire because of pdd. If you've got a murder of ravens going, it's nothing to just drop down a pdd and some auto turrets to cover your retreat. The only things that can shoot ravens through a pdd move slower or the same speed as a raven. (With the possible exception of the pheonix. Don't know if their lasers can be pdded or not)
And ravens are kickass for harrasment and for johnny on the spot defense too. Auto turrets can block off a critical location to allow those slow reinforcements to arrive... Wandering around the map with them is going to give you a lot of map control and be able to keep tabs on your enemy. Seeker missile is also a nice way to deal with pesky broodlords as you can use pdd to keep you safe from the escort corrupters, charge in and soften them up enough that your marines can finish them off.
You know, I'm going to have to go and try this out now. I'm thinking a large marine/marauder/hellion medivac composition with tanks for defending key locations and adding long range support and then a crap ton of ravens once I secure 6 gas with corvid reactor, structure armor and hi-sec auto tracking upgrades. Marine/Marauder would then comprise your mobile core, tanks would be moved to critical locations like watch towers and high-ground control areas which would leave your ravens free to do the actual damage to the enemy. You'd have to be building missile turrets basically everywhere to supplement anti air defense, but because you're getting the building armor and hi-sec upgrades for the ravens, that's actually a really nasty thing and keeping scvs in a forward location gives your ravens a forward area to go back and heal when they get beat up.
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i don't think the issue is too big
i mean we could see a few small changes in the future (faster medivacs - yes, they nerfed their speed before because of small maps, faster siege mode, perhaps even some kind of raven buff - i'd love to see seeker missile buff, faster projectile or less mana) but i think it's ok. Just practise and find new ways, like hellions usuage during the mid and lategame since they are superfast etc.
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The problem is on equal skill levels the longer the map, the more favored Zerg and Protoss are. Also, most Protoss open up phoenix on me to stop banshee/drop harass. Phoenix completely takes all air control, Terran can't do anything against that.
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the problem is hunter seeker costing 125 energy...
make it 75 ffs. it's such a cool idea for a spell, but not efficient at all.
it deals 100 to single unit, 50 to units in 'storm radius' and then 15 damage to a sliver of area larger than storm. plus the damage can be mitigated by any unit faster than ~2.5 speed.
until then, raven will just be a PDD bot with the ability to drop a tough marine.
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On March 24 2011 03:35 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
The problem is the siege/unsiege time. In order to move across a long map vs Z you need to siege leapfrog. If it takes 10 siege/unsieges to get to your opponent, then he's going to have twice as much stuff as you by the time you get there. Add to this the fact that mutalisks cut off reinforcements.
Personally, I've already downvoted Terminus after playing it only once. I didn't really see any non-cheesy way to win on the map if I were playing an equally skilled opponent.
I'm assuming you mean Tal Darim? I am actually surprised by how close the bases are (non cross- positions. So far, as T, I have 1 rax-FEd against Zerg. As Predy suggested, hellions are great. On this map, there are enough wide chokes that you can find a way into a Zerg expo and do eco damage.
And Terran drops are made more powerful, imo, on large maps. Mutas are less of a threat as they can't be everywhere at once and Zs have to be more methodical about OL placement to cover the entire map. Like typical TvZ or TvP on smaller maps, hit two places at once.
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until then, raven will just be a PDD bot with the ability to drop a tough marine.
That can't move.
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On March 24 2011 05:13 DemonCitrus wrote:
GinDo, like someone said before, in BW, Zerg did not have creep and larvae inject, and Protoss did not have warp in. I thought I would enjoy longer maps as a Terran player, but I have found that because my units are so unbelievably slow I can't put on agression and by the time I move out they will already of had more units. Also, when a P attacks you, the distance of the map does not matter, Protoss has the advantage right now and I can't stand it. Zerg has creep, and any decent Zerg knows how to spread this (3.3k+ in mind). Also, in BW, we had vultures, hellions are retarded and die to banelings and all of protoss units except zealots and probes.
 if you actually read my post im actually or your side. In my post i was addressing how some people were saying we should play more BW esq style. So i responded that we already were and it was not working. lol xD
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I noticed on a couple streams i watch, especially in TvZ. I notice that most zergs go muta vs terran nowadays, with this being true. One of the basic units that terran's have to counter muta's are thors. Thors are really really slow, how do you get it across the map to stop the muta harass on each thor that automatically gets rallied near the enemies base if you want to contain him or put pressure on him:S
^ I've seen this on some stream I was watching a week ago, each thor that was going to the rally point always been picked off. I know some of you would say to just rally in front of your base to gather up enough thors and then push so your thors don't get picked off, but what if you wanted to keep sending thors to put pressure on the opponent?
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On larger maps T can "dig in" effectively with bunkers, turrets, and a proper siege line. While somewhat vulnerably to harass, these effects can be mitigated with good building placement. You can still poke with your army to keep them on their toes, but always keep a reserve at your base in bunkers (get the cargo space, building armor, and PF/turret range upgs).
A pretty well-defended expo costs 950 min / 150 gas. (not including units)
CC - 400
PF - 150/150
3 BUNKERS - 300
1 TURRET - 100
= 950/150
Keep pressure with a mobile bio force, poking at expansions and the natural, then retreat back. What you're looking for are opportunities to apply pressure while building a strong production economy that lets you macro just as well as P or Z. You want to be running off 3-4 bases ASAP.
If you need a quick injection of cash, you can salvage the bunkers. Also, if you need quick reinforcements, use the units in your bunkers.
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As a terran player I don't feel like the immobility is the biggest problem. Hellions and medivacs can still make for good harassing, even if your "main army" is moving around the map at a slugs pace.
What tends to worry me in longer games is the that it takes for me to remax. I feel like terrans can take on any army, but once the dust settles, they rebuild much slower. Protoss can use a combination of warpgates and chronoboosts to rebuild really fast, and zerg of course has larva. When both players have a large number of bases/banked resources, terran can feel extremely awkward. Their whole design is much more unforgiving.
Mules and reactors mean that we can crank out stuff like marines real fast, but marines alone are not that hard to counter.
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He makes a good point. Because the maps are a lot bigger now it is very easy for faster armies like the zerg to do counter attacks and never having to actually engage the army of the Terran. This GSL we seen more base races then ever before because Terran can't make it back to there base in time to defend so they might as well try and kill off the base. But any player who has an immobile army should fortify the hell out of there base. Turrets,Plantarys, Bunkers, Cannons, Spines and Spores. Load your base with them! If they do kill all of your static defenses it at least slows them down big time. With the ability for Terrans to get a full refund on bunkers there should be no reason why you can't leave a small group of infantry in a few bunkers. You get the 100 mins back anyway.
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EPT
