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On March 26 2011 16:28 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 16:03 Douillos wrote:On March 26 2011 06:43 Daystar wrote:On March 26 2011 04:05 abominable wrote:
once you hit 200/200 you should have pleeeeeeeenty of money to go crazy with turrets. they stop almost any kind of air threat or at least slows it down enough for you to retaliate.
Im not sure if you were being serious there or not. In my experience the later the game goes (200/200) the worse Turrets become. Mutas/Voidrays render them useless when upgraded. You cannot defend a far expansion with just Turrets and they do not give you anywhere near enough time to ship your units over there to help out. Prime example being the new Shattered Temple, the 3rd expansion, i usually "try" to defend it with Turrets and if im mid map trying to take the gold and Z/P run theyre Voids/Mutas to the 3rd, the 3rd will be gone or extremely devestated before i even get there. One of two things i would like to see, either Terran gets a comparable air unit, Banshee would be good if they could shoot air-air, do what they did to the BC ground damage, reduce theyre dmg air-air to make them not OP and make them restricted to ground fire when cloaked (is that even possible?) Or buff turrets to make them worth it, yes they are "free" units late game, but theyre not enough of a detterent to an air army. One thor in each mineral line will discourage any muta ball! add a few turrets and I cant imagine any void's trying to break you. I know that works but that means that you will be behind for each Thor defending. There is a reason why in an upfront fight, static defense is always super cost effective. Send 1 Ultra at a lone Planetary Fortess, which one do you think will win and by how much?
the idea of turret/planetary is to slow down an assault, not completely stop it.
and 8 upgraded turrets (800 minerals) with scv's on auto-repair can stop 20 fully upgraded mutas (2000 minerals) and reduce a group of 10 fully upgraded voidrays (2500 minerals) to 3-4. but consider how long it would take to mass 10 voidrays... no reason why you haven't got vikings on the field to supplement the turrets and ezmode win.
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can't believe there's 8 pages of this
most current T strats were succesful on the smaller maps
We'll just have to adapt to the new maps.
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3300 diamond terran here. The problem is in the early to mid game, its incredibly hard for terran to apply pressure/harass. If the terran player sits back and macros or tech, he'll simply lose since protoss tech and zerg macro is superior. I've tried out a few strategies and had somewhat of a moderate success opening 2 factory helions against zerg. I still have no idea how to deal with protoss. T__T I think what terrans need right now is a iloveoov or fantasy to change the way terran is played right now.
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Taldarim Altar isn't actually that big. I'm not sure the rush distance is even longer than on Shakuras. So far i have won every TvZ i played on that map (5 games so far) and it didn't feel that much different. Although muta harass is an even greater pain in the ass as usual. TvP on the other hand ... i haven't had much luck with.
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Could nuke harras be viable?
Either you could try to nuke probes during combat, so he has a hard time to check all expansions and control his army, or you can try to pick of several pylons and gates/tech buildings.
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3.5k diamond here (would have been 4k masters if my win rate vs protoss wasn't 20%).
I would like to respond to the fact that MECH is a solution for TvP. I've been experimenting with mech, but the larger the map, the less effective it is. The problem with mech is:
1. You need to keep your army together
2. You are slow
3. Rebuilding mech takes agessssss
It is easy to kill the protoss main, but in the late game, on large maps, its not so easy to prevent the protoss from just counter attacking your main.
From that point both players rely on their expos & production facilities @ their expos. Here comes the good part. Defending expo's is like so impossible if its mech against toss, because you are basically way too slow to run around the map and be everywhere at once, whereas Toss will just warp in some DT's at random places and wtfbbqroflpwnz ur SCV's in one shot kills...
I am currently experiencing with mid-late game transitioning in to air units. purely because of their mobility. Bio or Mech is useless.
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On March 25 2011 06:34 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 06:18 Veasel wrote:Guys im currently watching White-Ra stream against QXC and i cant help to get annoyed. Lategame. 4v4base and qxc harassing one of the aside expos, and the only thing White-Ra needs to do is to just warp in 10 stalkers in 4 sec hAhahaha. Lategame nullifies every TvP harass it seems.  Well Terran is supposed to drop multiple locations at once to circumvent that. You drop one location, bait protoss to warp in a lot of units there, then do a massive drop on his gateways or something like that. Of course, smart Ps will overmake warp gates so that this effect is minimized. Really, the only way to beat protoss in mid/late game is to out-multitask them and set up well timed drops.
Eh, that's true, but I'm not sure terran even has the early game advantage anymore. Sentry forcefields shut down many early pokes and it doesnt take long for a 6 warpgate build to overrun any expansion of mine.
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the answer to protoss is TANKS.
with either hellions or marines to hold positon behind the tanks in range to instagib zealots.
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On March 26 2011 22:25 Ada wrote:
Could nuke harras be viable?
Either you could try to nuke probes during combat, so he has a hard time to check all expansions and control his army, or you can try to pick of several pylons and gates/tech buildings.
You can nuke open space with nothing in it and it will probably be cost effective. Lategame nuke's are underused, and it is very wise to set one off randomly before engaging in a battle.
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On March 26 2011 04:42 Albrithe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 04:31 Chaosvuistje wrote:On March 26 2011 04:17 Morphs wrote:
1 Lift off buildings
2 Land halfway across the map
3 Produce & attack
4 Profit
Time to get creative Terran people, you have loads of options, try 'em out! You want them to put their production facilities out in the open? Away from all of their techlabs/favourable terrain? As much as I like to bash on terrans and protoss, this isn't the time nor the thread. Your suggestion is dangerous and outright insane. I dunno, I don't think it'd be legit to outright shit all over what he's suggesting. Lets say you're in a mid game position after opening up a primarily rax army, like the one suggested in the day9 daily where he keeps on constant mid-sized marine aggression... finding link... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200525 Now your attacks are starting to become not as effective as he got colossi/HT's. Obviously you aren't going to float them so his base is blocked off or something, but you can choose your addon's carefully so that you could throw down factories or starports and effectively transition into some late game plans while being able to keep a lot of pressure on with that in-your-face marine production... It doesn't seem like you should just label this as "outright insane" so easily. Have you ever seen anyone even TRY this, let alone do it and it fail as miserably as you suggest? I only just recently started posting on TL, and this overbearing theme of negativity towards trying new things in a strategy forum is as discouraging as it is sad.
I'll explain to you why I find this idea to be outright insane.
Terran's production facilities are the most fragile of all the races, followed by protoss and lastly zerg. They are the hardest to get up, they require add ons to get the most effective units out, and they don't produce units as fast as protoss or zerg.
The one thing that you do with lifting your buildings out of your base is creating a new area of attack. You're putting your most vunerable asset out in the open. You're spreading yourself out needlessly just for a little bit of less walking distance. This makes harrass a ton more effective.
Lets say your opponent kills your army. He now only has to walk less far to be INSIDE your production facilities. GG for terran. You can't recover from that.
Lets say you and your opponent are fighting a big engagement at an expansion. He sends a couple of forces towards your production facilities and tears up the add ons and can easily retreat back to the map, something that isn't that viable if the production is standing on a oneway platform such as a main base.
You're also leaving behind addons in your main.
There is simply no huge advantage to setting your buildings forward for terran except for the slightly less walking distance. After a huge engagement as terran you want to regroup anyway. If you have your production around your expansion, you defend AND regroup at the same time. If you don't, you leave your expansion more exposed.
Weighing the pros and cons with eachother, there's simply too much on the con part. I'm not needlessly going about and flaming everyones idea's. But I'm simply too shocked that people suggest putting your production out in the open for terran.
+ Show Spoiler [TSL spoilers] +
Having that said, I feel like QxC's extreme harrassment style is going to be the future of TvP on larger maps. We've seen it work on Xel naga caverns in the TSL. The way he just uses hellions, ghosts, speed reapers and drops is amazing and keeps the protoss on his toes all the time.
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On March 24 2011 03:24 NATO wrote:
Terran units are slow. The longer the map, the less opportunity they have to be aggressive, so they have to expand. However, the other races can do either, and zerg in particular can benefit more from no aggression, but they also can just as easily be super aggressive themselves on larger maps because their units are that much faster.
To put it simply - the slow a race's units, or production distance is (protoss can still 4gate on large maps) - the worse larger maps are for that race.
I personally think SC2's design is horrible in the regard that maps differences can significantly change game balance. I think it would be better if all the races had different ways of exploiting map features, so the map variety would encourage different styles rather than one race always winning on particular maps. Yeah, it's not even the warp gates, protoss units are just faster and more mobile over all. How many Terran units do you know that go faster than 2.25 on the ground? Hellion, and reaper is what I can think off. Even dropships are just painfully slow.
To put it in the words of many 'It doesn't necessarily make them less powerful, it gives them less options.'
In another sense though, that map features can balance is I think quite important as it allows the community to balance itself due to maps rather than some blizzard stat changes. 5rax reaper back in the IEM Cologne days would have been a lot less scary on tal'darim altar.
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I'm not sure if its THAT much of a problem if you stick with bio - see Boxer in TSL. I would imagine that its hard to mech because the map is so frigging big and mech is so frigging slow and has zero frigging map control outside of hellions.
You might be able to do a big air play like with Synystyr's 4 Port into mass BC since this is one of the few maps where you can hoard enough gas to transition into a full 4+ port BC.
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EPT
