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On March 25 2011 06:34 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 06:18 Veasel wrote:Guys im currently watching White-Ra stream against QXC and i cant help to get annoyed. Lategame. 4v4base and qxc harassing one of the aside expos, and the only thing White-Ra needs to do is to just warp in 10 stalkers in 4 sec hAhahaha. Lategame nullifies every TvP harass it seems.  Well Terran is supposed to drop multiple locations at once to circumvent that. You drop one location, bait protoss to warp in a lot of units there, then do a massive drop on his gateways or something like that. Of course, smart Ps will overmake warp gates so that this effect is minimized. Really, the only way to beat protoss in mid/late game is to out-multitask them and set up well timed drops.
And to out macro a protoss you need to do super quick expands, and if protoss decides to attack then you dead. :D
If you have 2 medics with 8 helions and drop 2 min lines when protoss pushing out, well then maybe you can get a decent harass atleast.
Just my 2 cents of thoughts
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Toss defiantly seem very strong right now on all maps. However I do think Terran has the ability to adapt. They have so many units / abilities --> options that are underused right now.
Muta Harass is tough, but what about a Raven and PDD over the turrets? With the time upgrade a PDD lasts equal to the time it takes for a raven to gather 100 energy so it can be maintained indefinitely. At only 2 supply even one raven per base would only be a 6-8 supply cost and would shut down muta harass pretty hard.
Big maps extend the game. Terran has so many upgrades, they need to start exploiting this in the longer games.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 25 2011 06:40 Xirroh wrote:
Toss defiantly seem very strong right now on all maps. However I do think Terran has the ability to adapt. They have so many units / abilities --> options that are underused right now.
Muta Harass is tough, but what about a Raven and PDD over the turrets? With the time upgrade a PDD lasts equal to the time it takes for a raven to gather 100 energy so it can be maintained indefinitely. At only 2 supply even one raven per base would only be a 6-8 supply cost and would shut down muta harass pretty hard.
Big maps extend the game. Terran has so many upgrades, they need to start exploiting this in the longer games.
PDD only stops 20 muta shots or something. It really doesn't make a difference vs 15-30 mutas since they can ignore turrets after a certain point. If anything, seeker missile is scarier for zerg.
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On March 25 2011 06:34 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 06:18 Veasel wrote:Guys im currently watching White-Ra stream against QXC and i cant help to get annoyed. Lategame. 4v4base and qxc harassing one of the aside expos, and the only thing White-Ra needs to do is to just warp in 10 stalkers in 4 sec hAhahaha. Lategame nullifies every TvP harass it seems. Well Terran is supposed to drop multiple locations at once to circumvent that. You drop one location, bait protoss to warp in a lot of units there, then do a massive drop on his gateways or something like that. Of course, smart Ps will overmake warp gates so that this effect is minimized. Really, the only way to beat protoss in mid/late game is to out-multitask them and set up well timed drops.
I disagree on your wording, but agree with the underlying theme. "Out-multitask" makes it seem like your mechanics just have to better than the protoss. What's really happening is your forcing them to make a decision, as MMM in small numbers > gateway units in small numbers (Until they get charge). So if i drop in the back towards his mineral line with 2 medivacs, but keep a 4 medivac MMM ball (maybe a couple vikings) towards his front.... he has to choose whether or not he wants to risk exposing his front to my large army to deal with the damage in the back.
General rule of thumb:
Always drop with the appropriation of pressure. Do not drop if theres no pressure. Wait til he sees your front army before those medivacs go in.
If they split their forces (especially if a colossus is in one of those groups, snipe it) attack with both and judge which side is losing and retreat, but for the most part you'll come out ahead. If they don't simply pull your guys back into the medivacs and push the front...when those forces go back to the front, pull the front back and medivac drop again. Its so simple, but the protoss is afraid of splitting and losing the "deathball" that they have.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On March 25 2011 06:46 Schamus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 06:34 infinity21 wrote:On March 25 2011 06:18 Veasel wrote:Guys im currently watching White-Ra stream against QXC and i cant help to get annoyed. Lategame. 4v4base and qxc harassing one of the aside expos, and the only thing White-Ra needs to do is to just warp in 10 stalkers in 4 sec hAhahaha. Lategame nullifies every TvP harass it seems. Well Terran is supposed to drop multiple locations at once to circumvent that. You drop one location, bait protoss to warp in a lot of units there, then do a massive drop on his gateways or something like that. Of course, smart Ps will overmake warp gates so that this effect is minimized. Really, the only way to beat protoss in mid/late game is to out-multitask them and set up well timed drops. I disagree on your wording, but agree with the underlying theme. "Out-multitask" makes it seem like your mechanics just have to better than the protoss. What's really happening is your forcing them to make a decision, as MMM in small numbers > gateway units in small numbers (Until they get charge). So if i drop in the back towards his mineral line with 2 medivacs, but keep a 4 medivac MMM ball (maybe a couple vikings) towards his front.... he has to choose whether or not he wants to risk exposing his front to my large army to deal with the damage in the back. General rule of thumb: Always drop with the appropriation of pressure. Do not drop if theres no pressure. Wait til he sees your front army before those medivacs go in. If they split their forces (especially if a colossus is in one of those groups, snipe it) attack with both and judge which side is losing and retreat, but for the most part you'll come out ahead. If they don't simply pull your guys back into the medivacs and push the front...when those forces go back to the front, pull the front back and medivac drop again. Its so simple, but the protoss is afraid of splitting and losing the "deathball" that they have.
Medivac drops inherently given advantage to the attacker but if you want to win TvPs, you have to take a large advantage from that drop. Once P has set up comfortably in his 3 bases with twilight council & dt tech, T is at a pretty big disadvantage.
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So basically what I'm reading in the last two pages is that late game TvP is winnable, you just have to be significantly better than your opponent. Sounds balanced.
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On March 25 2011 08:29 spbelky wrote:
So basically what I'm reading in the last two pages is that late game TvP is winnable, you just have to be significantly better than your opponent. Sounds balanced.
Please read my post again =D
Quite the opposite. Don't rely on out-microing. Rely on forcing decisions. There's a difference there.
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yes, your units are slow.
get over it.
they're also the most powerful.
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I think we will see more map splitting, and non-expansion Planetary Fortresses at vital areas.
PF with Tanks behind it, with air control would be incredibly hard to break as any race.
I also think turrets everywhere will start to becomet he new norm against zerg. If you ever watch old BW there are literally carpets of turrets around, and I think that may be what Terran needs on these new big maps.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Schamus, I don't see how you can say that drops are not a multitasking battle. You're controlling at least 2 groups of units at the same time while trying to macro perfectly and so is the protoss. There are ways for protoss to buy time or win ridiculous fights with good ff micro.
I also don't see why you think you're forcing protoss to make a decision. If you drop a P's main with P's main army in his nat, he's going to HAVE to defend his main.. it's not much of a decision.
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Can't Terran start building/lifting their barracks slowly closer to the enemy as the game progresses?
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On March 25 2011 08:53 lorkac wrote:
Can't Terran start building/lifting their barracks slowly closer to the enemy as the game progresses?
You lose all of the add-ons if you do that. Furthermore, the problem is that the Terran army isn't as mobile as the other races, so putting the barracks in a different spot doesn't help.
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On March 25 2011 08:52 infinity21 wrote:
Schamus, I don't see how you can say that drops are not a multitasking battle. You're controlling at least 2 groups of units at the same time while trying to macro perfectly and so is the protoss. There are ways for protoss to buy time or win ridiculous fights with good ff micro.
I also don't see why you think you're forcing protoss to make a decision. If you drop a P's main with P's main army in his nat, he's going to HAVE to defend his main.. it's not much of a decision.
I didn't say it's not a multitasking battle. Someone said it was relying on out-microing the protoss. That's not true. Yes, you have to multitask insanely...
And once again, you're only agreeing with my point. You force the protoss to defend the main mineral line, or tech structures, etc... while you have an army sit at the front. When he pulls back you push in... both battles should not be "end all battles" just poke in on both sides, do a little damage here and there to give you the edge.
Maybe i need to better word my original post, but in no way is it not multitasking...
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On March 25 2011 00:13 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 23:40 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 23:36 Deltablazy wrote:
The answer is obvious. More reaper/hellion based play and hope you can win before mid-end of mid-game. Or just veto all the large maps. This is going to be a painful season for Terran. Are you serious? Better watch how really good terrans play, times changes, 1 base allins no longer wins you are game. 1 base allins are/were so popular because the longer a game lasts, the less chances the terran has. Our lategame yet remains to be fixed. I'm not saying that terran can't win lategame or on large maps, but terrans certainly don't have near 50% win rate in 20min+ games. Give me a fighting chance in real lategame macro scenarios and i will gladly give it a try. I play about 50:50 of my games with early aggression/allin style and macro lategame style. And while i got about 70% win rate with the former, i only got about 40% with the latter.
Maybe that's because it's easier to win with all-ins since it takes very little skill, where as macro takes much more skill and is more demanding of the player. I don't think you should make baseless statements like this, maybe you need to check out the power of the 3/3 Mech army before you decide that Terran late game is IMBA/UP, sure it's hard to win late game when your using tier 1/1.5 units as the core of your army, break out the T2 (tanks/hellions) and T3 (thors) with max upgrades and it's a completely other story.
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How are sub 2k diamond players acting as if they are amazing, stating supposed "facts" about the game, and balance etc? I'm a 3.4k diamond terran and I'd consider myself nowhere even close to good enough to be stating facts or telling others flatly that their opinion is wrong. It really takes the shine away from the TL community, it's sad to see.
Stating opinions from even bronze level players on the forums is fine, great even. But posting your opinions as facts is simply wrong in my opinion.
On topic (to keep this from just a rant), based on what I've seen of SC2 thus far, the game changes dramatically without any game-changing patches even being applied. I think before any conclusions can be made we have to give large maps more time, and let people change their play to adapt, rather than expecting the game to adapt to their play straight away.
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On March 25 2011 09:45 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:13 Lurk wrote:On March 24 2011 23:40 Alpina wrote:On March 24 2011 23:36 Deltablazy wrote:
The answer is obvious. More reaper/hellion based play and hope you can win before mid-end of mid-game. Or just veto all the large maps. This is going to be a painful season for Terran. Are you serious? Better watch how really good terrans play, times changes, 1 base allins no longer wins you are game. 1 base allins are/were so popular because the longer a game lasts, the less chances the terran has. Our lategame yet remains to be fixed. I'm not saying that terran can't win lategame or on large maps, but terrans certainly don't have near 50% win rate in 20min+ games. Give me a fighting chance in real lategame macro scenarios and i will gladly give it a try. I play about 50:50 of my games with early aggression/allin style and macro lategame style. And while i got about 70% win rate with the former, i only got about 40% with the latter. Maybe that's because it's easier to win with all-ins since it takes very little skill, where as macro takes much more skill and is more demanding of the player. I don't think you should make baseless statements like this, maybe you need to check out the power of the 3/3 Mech army before you decide that Terran late game is IMBA/UP, sure it's hard to win late game when your using tier 1/1.5 units as the core of your army, break out the T2 (tanks/hellions) and T3 (thors) with max upgrades and it's a completely other story.
So now your interpreting all kinds of statements into my post that aren't in there ...
I never said i was trying to win lategame with low tech units.
I never said terran lategame was underpowered, just that my (personal) win rate and also that of practically every terran i know in lategame battles is way below 50%.
How exactly did you conclude i never "checked out" the power of 3/3 mech ?
Also, it's not a "baseless statement" i made, but rather facts of my personal statistics.
Also, saying that allin requires little skill is not entirely correct - otherwise every noob bronze player could win with. It just requires different skills (good micro and perfect timing) than long macro games (which are more about decision making, multitasking and well macro). This is exactly, why i play in both ways - to practice my micro as well as macro skills.
I don't know the exact reason why i lose lategame. All i can tell you is that it's NOT because i macro badly. I often lose despite having the bigger and more expensive army, having better upgrades and also higher tech units.
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The bigger maps, along with the stim nerf, together make TvP a lot more difficult in this new patch. If Terran wants to do a 1 rax expand, which imo is really the only viable non-cheese build againt protoss in the current state of the game, they must be prepared to deal with a 4 gate. You can scout this by seeing only 1 gas but no expansion. However, on a big map you have no way to scout that the expansion hasn't been taken without losing key early units. Worse, 4 gate is as powerful as ever because of the warp in mechanic. Now take into account the stim nerf. Before, stim would finish a few seconds before a typical 4 gate hit, but now it finishes after the units are attacking. These factors combined make terran really, really nerfed in TvP imo.
On March 25 2011 07:00 infinity21 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 06:46 Schamus wrote:On March 25 2011 06:34 infinity21 wrote:On March 25 2011 06:18 Veasel wrote:Guys im currently watching White-Ra stream against QXC and i cant help to get annoyed. Lategame. 4v4base and qxc harassing one of the aside expos, and the only thing White-Ra needs to do is to just warp in 10 stalkers in 4 sec hAhahaha. Lategame nullifies every TvP harass it seems. Well Terran is supposed to drop multiple locations at once to circumvent that. You drop one location, bait protoss to warp in a lot of units there, then do a massive drop on his gateways or something like that. Of course, smart Ps will overmake warp gates so that this effect is minimized. Really, the only way to beat protoss in mid/late game is to out-multitask them and set up well timed drops. I disagree on your wording, but agree with the underlying theme. "Out-multitask" makes it seem like your mechanics just have to better than the protoss. What's really happening is your forcing them to make a decision, as MMM in small numbers > gateway units in small numbers (Until they get charge). So if i drop in the back towards his mineral line with 2 medivacs, but keep a 4 medivac MMM ball (maybe a couple vikings) towards his front.... he has to choose whether or not he wants to risk exposing his front to my large army to deal with the damage in the back. General rule of thumb: Always drop with the appropriation of pressure. Do not drop if theres no pressure. Wait til he sees your front army before those medivacs go in. If they split their forces (especially if a colossus is in one of those groups, snipe it) attack with both and judge which side is losing and retreat, but for the most part you'll come out ahead. If they don't simply pull your guys back into the medivacs and push the front...when those forces go back to the front, pull the front back and medivac drop again. Its so simple, but the protoss is afraid of splitting and losing the "deathball" that they have. Medivac drops inherently given advantage to the attacker but if you want to win TvPs, you have to take a large advantage from that drop. Once P has set up comfortably in his 3 bases with twilight council & dt tech, T is at a pretty big disadvantage.
I also want to quote this exchange because it is the crux of the current TvP matchup, assuming protoss hasn't exercised their array of disgusting strategies in the early/earlymid game (such as 4 gate, 3 gate stargate, DT rush, 6 gate). Terran simply cannot win in head to head battles unless protoss is severely outmacroed. But, if the battle is occurring in several places at once, then terran can judge which battle is going in their favor and win that one (which protoss can't really retreat from without taking heavy losses because of stim) and stim away from the one they are losing. As soon as I understood this dynamic my TvP winrate shot up from about 25% to 60% or so.
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I think that a Terran would just have to play a little different on a larger map. If you want to maintain harrassment over long distances then you'd need Banshees or more Medivacs to transport your army.
Also with the Terran's strong abilities to hold territory I don't see why there's not many proxy production facilities being built on the other side of a choke that's defended with a tank.
Stim can also provide good mobility at the sacrifice of being vulnerable to an attack for a bioball.
tl;dr- You need to adjust your strategy to the map.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I think you need to get combat shield first vs 4 gate instead of stim if you are FEing now. Stim kills the durability of your army anyways so it's not as effective until medivacs come in play. I suppose the biggest downside of that is dealing with VR which is a lot easier with stim.
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On March 25 2011 21:39 infinity21 wrote:
I think you need to get combat shield first vs 4 gate instead of stim if you are FEing now. Stim kills the durability of your army anyways so it's not as effective until medivacs come in play. I suppose the biggest downside of that is dealing with VR which is a lot easier with stim.
If you have 3-4 bunkers (which are absolutely needed to hold off 4 gate) don't you think stim is by far the better choice?
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EPT
