As some previous posters said, Phoenix or Muta can give a Protoss or Zerg complete air + map control, meaning things such as banshees/medivacs for transportation are completely out of the question. Also previously mentioned, Terran units are SLOW, unbelievably slow. Aside from the Reaper or Hellion, every Terran ground unit is 2.25 speed or slower. (I hope everyone that doesn't play Terran understands how slow 2.25 actually is)
So what about the Reaper or Hellion? Well, they both succeed at killing two things, workers, and light units. Sooo. workers, and Zerglings/Zealots. Luckily for us though, Zerglings on creep rape hellions, and Zealots are always accompanied by stalkers or sentries. So we have mobile units that are good at harassing workers, but suck at pretty much everything else.
This brings us back to the original problem, Terran doesn't have any mobile forces that are actually good in combat, so to deal with long travel distances on larger maps, Terran pretty much just has to deal with being slow, there is no real alternative.
To compare, Zerg typical ground units OFF CREEP / ON CREEP (assuming full upgrades) Zergling - 4.7 / 6.1 Roach - 3.0 / 3.9 (often times I hear zerg complain about how ungodly slow roaches are without speed upgrade. Well, an unupgraded roach is 2.25, which is exactly what marine/marauder/tanks are... think about that one) Hydra - 2.25 / 3.375 (again I often hear complaints about how slow Hydras are off creep. They are the SAME speed as marine/marauder/tanks) Infestor - 2.5 Ultralisk - 2.95 / 3.835 Baneling - 2.95 / 3.835
Every single zerg unit is faster than any Terran ground unit (excluding reaper/hellion), and the "omg slow" zerg units (unupgraded roach/hydra/infestor) are still just as fast if not faster than every Terran unit. Luckily when we do actually engage, we have stim to compensate, but we can't exactly stim our way across the map when we need to travel. Remember, these speeds are not relative to how they impact actual engagements, but how the impact travel time (because I would argue Zerg units NEED to be this fast in order to engage properly).
Now for the Protoss, Protoss is closer to Terran than Zerg, but there are still quite a few units that are both good in combat AND fast. Zealot - 2.75* Stalker - 2.95* Sentry - 2.25 High Templar - 1.88 (sadface) Dark Templar - 2.81* Archon - 2.81* Immortal - 2.25 Colossus - 2.25
So 4 of the 8 Protoss ground units are faster than the typical Terran ground unit, and now just for good measure I'll list all the Terran ground units because I can Hellion - 4.25 Reaper - 3.83
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Now that we've clearly established that Terran units on average are slower than both Protoss and Zerg (remember, we're still talking about speed in terms of transportation), let's talk about other means of transportation. As previously mentioned in this post and others, on larger maps both Protoss and Zerg tend to favor getting units like Muta and Phoenix to negate medivacs AND maintain air control, so we'll take medivacs mobility out of the picture (for now). What other modes of transportation does each race have if they don't want to hoof it on ground?
Zerg - Their units are already blazing fast, especially on creep, but when they need an alternative, there is always the underused NYDUS worm! The Nydus Worm (or worms) can transport an entire army across the map in seconds.
Protoss - Warp Gate units can be warped in anywhere the Protoss can supply a power field with a pylon OR Warp Prism. Also, the very underused Mothership Recall. Often an underused ability because the Mothership itself is so slow, and Protoss love keep their mothership with their army, but if separated the Mothership can warp in the Protoss army to its location from anywhere on the map.
Terran - ... umm... uhhh... ...
OK then.
So now let's bring up the medivac, because I know a lot of you want to argue that it is viable despite the mutas and phoenix on the map. If the Terran loads up units in to a medivac(s) (whether it be 8 marines, or 16 medivacs with his entire army) he risks losing every single unit if intercepted by phoenix / mutas in the wrong place.
Similarly, it's not like Zergs don't have overlord upgrades or Protoss don't have Warp Prisms. I'm not going to argue that Overlords or Warp Prisms compare to medivacs as UNITS, because the medivac is clearly the winner (imo), but in terms of TRANSPORTATION only, which is what this thread is about (i think?), I think the "dropship" option is about even across the three races, right? I hate to do this, but not exactly... Speeds - Remember this is all about transportation speed. Warp Prism - 2.5 (3.375 upgraded) Medivac - 2.5 Overlord - 1.88 (poor ovies)
I'm running out of steam to keep writing, and I actually wrote this hours ago but forgot to submit, damnit.
Spbelky makes a very compelling point backed up with facts. In terms of reinforcing a push, Terrans are by far the slowest. We can pray that Blizzard will attempt to balance this, but it doesn't seem possible until Heart of the Swarm comes out. As Spbelky points out, we would need an entire new mechanic (nydus worm/mass recall etc.) to compensate for the overall slow travel time. Makes me wonder if the Ghost "drop pod" ability that was removed can be incorporated in the expansion somehow. But alas, that is wishful thinking.
Until then, we need to try and adapt. While I don't personally prefer it, the slow tank/thor push (against zerg anyhow) is a staple strategy. What else can relocate at about the same speed as the mech push? Every one of our production facilities. I don't know how viable it is, but maybe Terrans need to start bringing production facilities with our main armies. As you leap frog your tanks, inch a couple barracks with the group too... maybe even include tech labs.
Techlabs? Well yeah, that's the only way to get the advanced but slow tech units out. What if we started adding techlabs once we hit about the halfway point between our base and the enemy's? A nydus network cost 150 minerals 200 gas... so basically 3 tech labs. But there is the build time to consider...I dunno, it's probably not worth it.
Taking along some naked rax is an interesting idea though. They don't cost gas, can act as a partial wall to mitigate surrounds, and can be used to scout ahead or spot the high ground without risk of being instantly sniped. Your marines also are reinforced directly to your army, rather than being at risk of being slaughtered by roaming zerglings.
On March 24 2011 05:46 PredY wrote: i don't think the issue is too big i mean we could see a few small changes in the future (faster medivacs - yes, they nerfed their speed before because of small maps, faster siege mode, perhaps even some kind of raven buff - i'd love to see seeker missile buff, faster projectile or less mana) but i think it's ok. Just practise and find new ways, like hellions usuage during the mid and lategame since they are superfast etc.
You can't fight any decent army composition with this. It would only be restricted to worker harass and thats it. A faster siege mode would be a huge help though, that is a good idea for helping the massive immobility problems.
Plz PLZ make the medivacs the same speed as ground based anti air such as stalkers or hydras. I can dig that air units can run down transports but not fucking stalkers. How many times have you done a harrasment drop on protoss in the early game, done a little bit of nibbling damage, maybe picked off a pylon and when you load up to head out again, friggin stalkers run down your medivacs in open field. There's no sense unloading your troops if you have, say 4 damaged marines and a nearly dead marauder, they'll just die anyway.
The whole purpose of transports is to give mobility to otherwise immobile units. At the very least, give us a techlab upgrade to turbo charge the dropship engines. I'd pay extra money for it like the protoss have to with the warp prism or the zergs with their overlords, but I want medivacs that aren't going to die because they got rundown by ninja fast stalkers.
Not even blink stalkers mind you, that I could accept, just regular old stalkers running down my poor medivacs over open ground. Gives me the rage!
Terran's immobility in BW wasn't so dramatic. Everyone's ability to reinforce and handle harrassment were pretty similar, with Terran having the best harassment due to mech and dropships. However in SC2 Protoss has Warp-In, and Zerg has creep spread and nydus worms, while Terran has an incredibly strong turtle ability. Sadly, even the Blizzard maps goes against Terran sometimes, since bases past the third are often far from the third base. It's even worse if the third base is far from the main/natural. It's honestly just a trait that Terrans just have to work around until Blizzard does something about it. Unnerfing the Medivac speed (which I saw as a kneejerk nerf) would be a good start.
I believe the one thing Terran has is their ability to turtle, but this is actually something that hasn't been embraced by most Terrans right now. We have Tanks, Planetary Fortresses, Turrets, Bunkers, and Vikings. Coupled with Sensor Towers and Scan from Orbitals, Terran can stop any attack no matter how big. Terran is designed to have an imbalanced defender's advantage. In fact, we abuse this whenever we do Siege pushes and the opponent charges at us.
The one thing about Terran expansions is the benefits of getting more expansions are not as direct as Protoss/Zerg. Zerg obviously needs more expansions for the extra larva, and Protoss needs expansions for extra Cronoboosts. For Terrans, it's a choice between Orbitals and PFs, If we get an Orbital, it obviously means more Mules and more minerals to dump into. Planetary Fortress however essentially means you're taking this expansion and you can't have it. Zerg and Protoss has to use so much resources to take down a heavily fortified expansion.
I think for long distance/GSL maps we'll have to embrace our ability to turtle and expand with siege tanks and bunkers, and constantly use economy harass with hellions, banshees, and/or drops, then spend resources to heavility fortify each expansion. Hinder the economy of the opponent so much until we have enough to make one strong push. Between any deflected attacks and economy damage I can this working. Obviously this is theorycraft but that's what I get when I look at Terran in SCII, and think back on how they worked in Brood War.
You frequently see T beating Z in macrogames, even in GSL so that MU is fine. Marine/Tank/Thor or just plain Mech are very good in this MU.
The real problem is P because of the way the race works, mainly WGates and Colossus. On big maps you can't really punish P early because they'll always be 2 production circles ahead (remember, P production is frontloaded) by the time you arrive and at the same time can't play too greedy or you die to stuff like 6gate. But if you don't play really, really greedy Colossus based play just fucks you over so much. Ofc now some silver dude is going to tell me "go mech!!" but that's already sub-par on medium sized maps, on big maps mech is laughably bad.
On March 24 2011 05:46 PredY wrote: i don't think the issue is too big i mean we could see a few small changes in the future (faster medivacs - yes, they nerfed their speed before because of small maps, faster siege mode, perhaps even some kind of raven buff - i'd love to see seeker missile buff, faster projectile or less mana) but i think it's ok. Just practise and find new ways, like hellions usuage during the mid and lategame since they are superfast etc.
You can't fight any decent army composition with this. It would only be restricted to worker harass and thats it. A faster siege mode would be a huge help though, that is a good idea for helping the massive immobility problems.
that's definitly not true, upgraded helions are strong and in combination with tanks they are just as much part of the army. think back to bw vultures, very similiar. upgraded blue flame helions are a hard counter to zealots (it's actually incredible how fast they kill them) and you can use them very easily to negate the shield ability of immortals by target firing them until their shields are gone (ussually takes only 1 shot because they have a big range and deal splash). not to mention they can chase armies, and like you said 4 blue flame helions is not something you want in your base.
what i ussually do vs protoss is let my helions lead the way as spotters while my tanks/thors run after them. the helions can easily poke and retreat, when the enemies chase them i siege up and attack them with my helions again once they're in range of the tanks.
however i don't like mech vers zerg at all (feels like camping) and i'd reaaaaaaally like to see the raven speed buffed... like what purpose does it have, you can't properly harras with them because if you encouter some muta's there is no way you can escape anymore. SK terran is supposed to be a dynamic style but the raven speed just makes it too slow to be fun.
I feel the community fought so hard for so long to get larger maps, and the instant they arrive they're suddenly terrible?
Sure Protoss can reinforce with warp gates - providing all they want is gateway units. If they want to reinforce with immortals, voids or colossi... they move at the same speed as the slow units you're complaining about, and take longer to build. Zerg can reinforce quickly, providing they're on creep. Hopefully you're not seriously claiming that's unfair, given the fragility of their units and their macro mechanics in general.
Terran has a terrain advantage too: you can pick any spot on the map, and *punish* anyone that tries to take it. How about, when you're maxed out and structures are idle, shorten your own reinforce time by floating some out to your army. It'll cost a few resources to get addons again, but then again so does having to build pylons everywhere or throwing down a nydus. Or don't even float them, just build some new ones at handy locations? Rax especially are cheap in the lategame.
(actually you have another advantage - vision. Why we STILL don't see many sensor towers on these large maps is a total mystery to me.)
But you're not seriously comparing the vision of sensor towers with observers and creep tumors are you? Generally sensor towers simply alter you to the incoming direction of the things that are about to kill you.
On March 24 2011 19:44 Mercury- wrote: You frequently see T beating Z in macrogames, even in GSL so that MU is fine. Marine/Tank/Thor or just plain Mech are very good in this MU.
The real problem is P because of the way the race works, mainly WGates and Colossus. On big maps you can't really punish P early because they'll always be 2 production circles ahead (remember, P production is frontloaded) by the time you arrive and at the same time can't play too greedy or you die to stuff like 6gate. But if you don't play really, really greedy Colossus based play just fucks you over so much. Ofc now some silver dude is going to tell me "go mech!!" but that's already sub-par on medium sized maps, on big maps mech is laughably bad.
The medivac speed was nerfed a couple patches ago and that really needs to be restored with these huge maps. Especially since stalkers are faster than medivacs. They should be able to blink on a medivac, but not run it down.
I also played Tal'darim Alter for the first two times yesterday and I fucking hate that map!!! The huge maps are becoming excruciating to play as a terran. As much as it pains me to think about it, I could switch to Protoss soon
On March 24 2011 20:48 FoFo wrote: uhm mech is actually really good (3000 diamond T)
Come back when you're a 4000 masters.
In addition to what others have said, terran has no mechanic to quickly rebuild their army like zergs (mass larva) or protoss (warp in speed + chromo boost).
On March 24 2011 20:48 FoFo wrote: uhm mech is actually really good (3000 diamond T)
Come back when you're a 4000 masters.
In addition to what others have said, terran has no mechanic to quickly rebuild their army like zergs (mass larva) or protoss (warp in speed + chromo boost).
Actually i think that with the TvZ match up, many things are pretty even. Lategame is hard for both but not hugely imbalanced. That mu is more a give and take game, where the one with most eco harass prob win in the end.
In TvP althou, i'm raging hard.
Anyone who say's that mech works good in TvP arent meeting good opponents. Sure it can work, but it sure as hell can be soo overrun by any decent toss who know that to do against it. And the opptions is soo many.
And when the bigger maps comes in play, we either have to FE and lose to any hard 4gate, 3gate void, and such. Or lose to the reference that the protoss has expanded before you, and in all ways you can think of denying everything you try to do.
On March 24 2011 20:48 FoFo wrote: uhm mech is actually really good (3000 diamond T)
Come back when you're a 4000 masters.
In addition to what others have said, terran has no mechanic to quickly rebuild their army like zergs (mass larva) or protoss (warp in speed + chromo boost).
On March 24 2011 20:48 FoFo wrote: uhm mech is actually really good (3000 diamond T)
Come back when you're a 4000 masters.
In addition to what others have said, terran has no mechanic to quickly rebuild their army like zergs (mass larva) or protoss (warp in speed + chromo boost).
well although larger maps are great for the game as a whole, it will undoubtedly be a huge benefit to protoss in p vs t, a match up which was quite balanced for the whole and certainly did not favour terran. the issue is that while the wealth of openings protoss has at its disposable remain open, you can opt to go 1 gate cyber expand and be safe, but alterantively you can do a super strong all in, which unless terran have done a super safe build, will have no chance of holding. i would imagine this is the general idea OP is getting at. rush distances effect terran far, far more than protoss and zerg. at least with zerg attacks/counter will be slightly delayed, but warp gate mechanics mean there are so many strong all ins from protoss which are totally unaffected, meanwhile the opposite is true of any early game terran aggression or all ins. they will all be substantially weaker.
On March 24 2011 19:44 Mercury- wrote: You frequently see T beating Z in macrogames, even in GSL so that MU is fine. Marine/Tank/Thor or just plain Mech are very good in this MU.
The real problem is P because of the way the race works, mainly WGates and Colossus. On big maps you can't really punish P early because they'll always be 2 production circles ahead (remember, P production is frontloaded) by the time you arrive and at the same time can't play too greedy or you die to stuff like 6gate. But if you don't play really, really greedy Colossus based play just fucks you over so much. Ofc now some silver dude is going to tell me "go mech!!" but that's already sub-par on medium sized maps, on big maps mech is laughably bad.
On March 24 2011 03:40 StalinRusH wrote: Hmm i'm not a Terran player (anymore(bw)) but couldn't Terran just play bw ish on bigger maps? i mean terran had the same issue with not a lot of mobility but that didn't really stop them from doing just as good.
The ratio of Terran speed to other races' speeds is greater in SC2. Terran is essentially the same, Zerg has creep and Toss has warpin.
On March 24 2011 19:44 Mercury- wrote: You frequently see T beating Z in macrogames, even in GSL so that MU is fine. Marine/Tank/Thor or just plain Mech are very good in this MU.
The real problem is P because of the way the race works, mainly WGates and Colossus. On big maps you can't really punish P early because they'll always be 2 production circles ahead (remember, P production is frontloaded) by the time you arrive and at the same time can't play too greedy or you die to stuff like 6gate. But if you don't play really, really greedy Colossus based play just fucks you over so much. Ofc now some silver dude is going to tell me "go mech!!" but that's already sub-par on medium sized maps, on big maps mech is laughably bad.
uhm mech is actually really good (3000 diamond T)
Many things are really good in Diamond.
well i got my mech build from a guy who's mid masters
EPT
