EPTbuild: early broodlords - Page 3
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 10 2011 09:37 PorkyPlague797 wrote: I believe this build has potential, and I believe it has problems, but I wont close this thread after one comment saying it won't work. Well, you're not a mod so you don't have to make that decision. This build is horrible because you advocate blindly rushing some tech in any situation. Saying "I don't rush tech" doesn't mean you don't rush tech. Clearly you are rushing tech. As such, any player who scouts you is just going to attack you and win. Someone posted one of the first responses saying like "I can just 6gate you and gg." This is completely true. You spend resources on the following before ever getting a unit that can attack ground with it: Lair Spire Infestation Pit Evolution Chamber +1 attack (you do have some lings so this is ehh) Hive Greater Spire XXX Corrupters Do you see why this is clearly a bad strategy? If your opponent uses those resources to make units, and then just attacks you, you lose by a wide margin. The ONLY time something like this (rushing tech) is EVER viable is when it hits a very specific timing window, and is usually in response to some very specific strategy (1-1-1 fast factory thor-drop cross-position LT TvZ as an example of a very specific build). ONLY then is advocating some kind of strategy like this possibly viable. | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
On March 10 2011 12:59 michaelhasanalias wrote: Well, you're not a mod so you don't have to make that decision. This build is horrible because you advocate blindly rushing some tech in any situation. Saying "I don't rush tech" doesn't mean you don't rush tech. Clearly you are rushing tech. As such, any player who scouts you is just going to attack you and win. Someone posted one of the first responses saying like "I can just 6gate you and gg." This is completely true. You spend resources on the following before ever getting a unit that can attack ground with it: Lair Spire Infestation Pit Evolution Chamber +1 attack (you do have some lings so this is ehh) Hive Greater Spire XXX Corrupters Do you see why this is clearly a bad strategy? If your opponent uses those resources to make units, and then just attacks you, you lose by a wide margin. The ONLY time something like this (rushing tech) is EVER viable is when it hits a very specific timing window, and is usually in response to some very specific strategy (1-1-1 fast factory thor-drop cross-position LT TvZ as an example of a very specific build). ONLY then is advocating some kind of strategy like this possibly viable. No, I see how it is very risky, but I don't see how it is a bad strategy. if some kind of push is coming, the zerg must obviously respond, even it it slows down this "tech rush". That is the great thing about zerg's mechanics. As long as you are on top of scouting, you should have the time and minerals to drop spines/spores/mass lings if something like a 6gate were to come. I agree with you though. If someone just goes for brood lords without scouting, without responding, playing with a tunnel vision... they will loose every time. | ||
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DeepCorrupted
United States84 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + You have a very interesting concept going on here... I feel that it is too weak because I do not understand how anybody can be so SAFE as you were in this game. At around 18 minutes, you lose your entire army in your first push. Now keep in mind... you lost because you only had zerglings vs zealots... yeah not so great... sure you had 4k minerals 600 gas but you lost 4 broods, some corruptors and a lot of zerglings, and an opponent that had "meh" macro (not saying i'm any better, but he had 3k minerals and 600 gas...) (18:27) oh... and he never counter attacked... he seriously could have attacked and hit you really hard: 20 zealots vs 8 zerglings at that point... (21:11) when he did push you, he kinda messed up on how his units were organized and his unit composition. His zealots should of been on the outside. I feel this was a blunder on his fault, giving you the win. from then on, the game was pretty much set on your side... GAME 2: X'elnaga Caverns + Show Spoiler + This one is a lot better than the first one, you are a lot safer because you actually got fighting units... but it is still zerglings. To be honest, your better off going mass muta... I understand your tryingto come up with a new "style" but it seems really gimmicky... A very good protoss with decent FF can kill you before you can get Brood Lords out... other than that this game is somewhat better. [url blocked] are some more game of the style of "brood rushing" that I do for anyone who is interested. These are some pretty lame game but its the jist (w/e that english term is) of it (i realy don't know if they really are the games I intended. I never name my games so god knows what they are...). I hope OP will seriously consider actually looking into it cause it IS somewhat like the style that you want. These games aren't perfect because my macro still needs working on and the person I got this style from has GOD macro so i hope you can learn from it. edit: and in case you are not taking me seriously: http://sc2ranks.com/us/651304/Corrupted Theres my rank... | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
On March 10 2011 14:40 DeepCorrupted wrote: GAME 1: Typhon Peaks or something like that + Show Spoiler + You have a very interesting concept going on here... I feel that it is too weak because I do not understand how anybody can be so SAFE as you were in this game. At around 18 minutes, you lose your entire army in your first push. Now keep in mind... you lost because you only had zerglings vs zealots... yeah not so great... sure you had 4k minerals 600 gas but you lost 4 broods, some corruptors and a lot of zerglings, and an opponent that had "meh" macro (not saying i'm any better, but he had 3k minerals and 600 gas...) (18:27) oh... and he never counter attacked... he seriously could have attacked and hit you really hard: 20 zealots vs 8 zerglings at that point... (21:11) when he did push you, he kinda messed up on how his units were organized and his unit composition. His zealots should of been on the outside. I feel this was a blunder on his fault, giving you the win. from then on, the game was pretty much set on your side... GAME 2: X'elnaga Caverns + Show Spoiler + This one is a lot better than the first one, you are a lot safer because you actually got fighting units... but it is still zerglings. To be honest, your better off going mass muta... I understand your tryingto come up with a new "style" but it seems really gimmicky... A very good protoss with decent FF can kill you before you can get Brood Lords out... other than that this game is somewhat better. [url blocked] are some more game of the style of "brood rushing" that I do for anyone who is interested. These are some pretty lame game but its the jist (w/e that english term is) of it (i realy don't know if they really are the games I intended. I never name my games so god knows what they are...). I hope OP will seriously consider actually looking into it cause it IS somewhat like the style that you want. These games aren't perfect because my macro still needs working on and the person I got this style from has GOD macro so i hope you can learn from it. edit: and in case you are not taking me seriously: http://sc2ranks.com/us/651304/Corrupted Theres my rank... Still have to watch the rest of your replays, but I think your what your doing is better then how I have started using brood lords. I was thinking that roaches would work well with them, because the broodlings will hold stuff back as your ranged roaches spit away. You use a much more solid build then I would, In my case I would have to rely on scouting any push the instant it moves out, then throw up a ton of spines and lings. thanks for the reps, I'll probably use them to work on my own play. | ||
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nWong
Canada145 Posts
It seems as if this build relies on bad scouting and reaction imo. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
The loosely ordered game plan I'd put this in is something like: Hatchery + Pool + Ling speed Evo chamber (ling upgrades) + Lair + 4 gases Spire+3rd base (Mass ling should get you some map control to take a third with.) Air carapace + Some mutas + Infestation pit + hive + 6 gases Corruptors instead of mutas if he's going pretty heavily VRcolossus. Greater spire + Adrenal glands into broods. Maybe should put a second evo chamber in there somewhere... around the time of the third? Fourth base is kinda dependent on how the game is going. I think you'll want pathogen glands + infestors if you need to deal with blink, but lings might be able to handle it themselves - lings deal quite well with blink stalker except for the whole cliff problem. Air carapace imo should be the upgrade of choice on broods. They can get quite tanky! Maybe build a lot of queens too. Like seriously, a lot. Transfusing brood lords is retarded, and they are pretty good at punishing air units for coming in range of the broods (Range 7 baby!) Only problem is their upgrades dont really sync into your ling/broodling centric upgrade path. Oh well. They're still tanky as hell themselves, too, and it's not like you don't have minerals to blow. | ||
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Teth
United States15 Posts
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
Just played about 10 games today, and couldn't do this strat ONCE. Got close positions on every map, metalopolis, slag pit... And everyone proceded to 2rax into 5 rax, me. Or Blue flame hellions into thor drops, or mass banshee... Even a 6 gate, and another 4 gate! I like this strat, but it is hard to find a situation where it is usable. | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On March 10 2011 16:26 Teth wrote: How viable is getting like 4-5 Queens with your army? They can tank decently since their Psionic and they can transfuse the Brood Lords. Any thoughts? It is excellent if you can spread creep, I use it. As I said in another thread: "It is borderline imba" | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
This game is also something of that sort. Monsieur LaLush (as Day[9] says) gets hive tech and greater spire off 2 base and then expands like a mad man. You can use this game as a guide for a ZvP variation of this build. His +1 air attack timing is also similar to what you said (iirc). | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
And, to Jotoco, I'm sorry dude  Most of my success was on the new maps, or cross positions. You pretty much have to abandon the strat if an all in is coming, and any other strong push requires a delay. One of the last games I had played was against a Terran who sent out an early MMM timing push. once I scouted, the only option was to make lings/blings/spines. I didn't have any trouble holding it, so I went back to teching, and eventually had my brood lords out and destroying his base. | ||
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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Saiton
Sweden467 Posts
On March 10 2011 08:34 DeepCorrupted wrote: Rushing to Brood Lords in ZvP is really amazing. It does so much damage and isn't TOO difficult to manage. What I do is Roaches with Tunneling claws and Corruptors. I snipe obs with corruptors and just try to hold the Toss off. Then i tech to Broods. I usually aim to get hive starting 14 minutes and broods before 18 minutes. Its really good cause If they get voids, you can just transition into zergling corruptor :D edit: replay of mine: [url blocked] Your broods hit at the 22 minute mark, the toss was ahead by about 30 probes after his DT harass and the broods didn't win you the game so the strategy suggested in this thread is a bit irrelevant to the thread content. but nevertheless, i agree with you that it can be strong if you hold off his initial pushes with minimum losses. | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148824-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns | ||
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NinjaDrone
United States97 Posts
Here's roughly what I do: - 14 gas 14 pool - 2+ queens (spread creep as fast as possible) - 3-4 spine crawlers (either at ramp or natural choke) - Scout with lings and expand if you see tech/early expand - Get lair and add 3-4 more spine crawlers - Never stop expanding creep - As soon as lair finishes put down spire - Active scouting with lings, overlords and overseers - Get evo chamber and start researching melee attack - Get out 4+ corruptors for air defense - Armor upgrade on air, Infestation pit, and tech to hive - Continue adding on spine crawlers/corruptors/zerglings depending on his army composition (if you feel really scared you can throw down a roach warren for extra defense) - Morph to greater spire and continue getting melee upgrades - Turn approximately 1/3-1/2 of your corruptors into brood lords (depending on opponent's army composition) - Begin slow pushing with spine crawlers, corruptors and brood lords (keep lings/roaches in the back) - If opponent over commits pull back brood lords and punish them with zerglings/roaches This build is very similar in style to a Terran mech push. Spine crawlers and brood lords act similar to siege tanks while corruptors act as vikings and lings/roaches acts as infantry. Like a mech build, proper control and positioning is vital. Also like a mech army, this build is weak against mobile armies (especially drops) and is suited for direct pushing (i.e. attack their main, not their expos.) It can also be difficult to secure a third/fourth with this build depending on the map. However, if executed properly, this army composition allows you to contain and starve an opponent while allowing you to expand. I've found that opponents are often caught off guard and sack large amounts of units trying to break the contain. This build really comes down to who makes the first big mistake. If you opponent engages while you are properly set up you should be able to decimate an equal food army. However, if you over extend yourself and aren't properly prepared it is easy to be overrun. I like the idea of adding infestors to the build but I'm not sure if you'd have enough gas to support it (it might end up diluting and thereby weakening the build.) | ||
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pbecot01
41 Posts
 The number is very high though lol.Queens and broodlords off creep move at similar speeds too, and both have really good range and are very tanky. The problem is that it is hard to take a third or deal with drops past the early game...but you need to do so or you just won't have enough stuff gosu transfuses or not. I would love to see someone with pro level macro run this strat so that everything is upgraded on time and the broodlords are super fast... but even with my crappy play it wins against just about everything I've faced. | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
As for the roach defense, I think you can make the roach warren and then wait until you scout a push before you start cranking them out. | ||
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PorkyPlague797
United States31 Posts
On March 11 2011 11:48 NinjaDrone wrote: Don't be too quick to dismiss this build. Obviously it has its flaws but it is quite good in the right situations. I love using this build in ZvP because it handles 4 gates quite well and discourages your opponent from getting collosi (which often throws off their build.) Here's roughly what I do: - 14 gas 14 pool - 2+ queens (spread creep as fast as possible) - 3-4 spine crawlers (either at ramp or natural choke) - Scout with lings and expand if you see tech/early expand - Get lair and add 3-4 more spine crawlers - Never stop expanding creep - As soon as lair finishes put down spire - Active scouting with lings, overlords and overseers - Get evo chamber and start researching melee attack - Get out 4+ corruptors for air defense - Armor upgrade on air, Infestation pit, and tech to hive - Continue adding on spine crawlers/corruptors/zerglings depending on his army composition (if you feel really scared you can throw down a roach warren for extra defense) - Morph to greater spire and continue getting melee upgrades - Turn approximately 1/3-1/2 of your corruptors into brood lords (depending on opponent's army composition) - Begin slow pushing with spine crawlers, corruptors and brood lords (keep lings/roaches in the back) - If opponent over commits pull back brood lords and punish them with zerglings/roaches This build is very similar in style to a Terran mech push. Spine crawlers and brood lords act similar to siege tanks while corruptors act as vikings and lings/roaches acts as infantry. Like a mech build, proper control and positioning is vital. Also like a mech army, this build is weak against mobile armies (especially drops) and is suited for direct pushing (i.e. attack their main, not their expos.) It can also be difficult to secure a third/fourth with this build depending on the map. However, if executed properly, this army composition allows you to contain and starve an opponent while allowing you to expand. I've found that opponents are often caught off guard and sack large amounts of units trying to break the contain. This build really comes down to who makes the first big mistake. If you opponent engages while you are properly set up you should be able to decimate an equal food army. However, if you over extend yourself and aren't properly prepared it is easy to be overrun. I like the idea of adding infestors to the build but I'm not sure if you'd have enough gas to support it (it might end up diluting and thereby weakening the build.) Thanks for sharing your build. Love the comparison to the Terran tank push, it feels exactly like that, only I'd say the tanks are the ling/banelings. If the marines (in zvt at least) move out too far they'll get shelled by the ling/blings, while the brood lords poke to get the marines out. | ||
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