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What started out as a radical idea I had, is now my main build vs Protoss and Terran. the idea is to not rush, but tech up to brood lords earlier then most would seem reasonable. This is similar to the way Protoss will occasionally go one, or two base collosus. the build isn't fully developed, but I will try to list it out in a way that makes sense.
open 14gas/14pool --- This helps to stop cheese and super early pushes.
drones off gas after speed, queen right away
take natural while fully saturating main, put drones on gas when close to full saturation
use lings to scout and defend, spines if there is any sort of push
get lair out as you get gas. also get all gas going as soon as you get new bases
there is somewhat of a timing I have found when going for the greater spire:
-spire asap
-start +1 air attack and infestation pit at the same time
-start hive as soon as infestation pit finishes
-the hive and the +1 attack will finish at almost the exact same time, then start greater spire.
while the greater spire is making, be sure you have some corrupters out and ready
*a good strategy to slow down any pushes is to make around 5 mutas for harass
following this general build/guideline, you should be able to make around 7 brood lords at the 15:00 minute mark.
This is my first post, and I am only a 3k diamond player, so I am open to suggestions.
-- If you want to bash me, please read the post and what a rep beforehand.
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148476-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148477-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148824-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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Most Toss players will go VoidRay+Colossi+Gateway, meaning broodlord are useless.
This also losses badly to 6 gate push, sorry but this wouldn't work in masters, for sure.
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If I see you rushing for lair I can easily just 6 gate you and you won't have any thing to defend with. Spines and lings will only protect you for so long (which isn't even that long)
Also, If you even get the brood lords out some how, that's just about all you'll have meaning If I just make pure blink stalkers and focus them down one by one you're entire game plan is ruined and you lose.
So no, this would not work well at all.
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How do you plan on defending any kind of push?
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okay thanks, but I have beaten blink stalkers multiple times now. when getting these brood lords out at 15 minutes, you will still have an army of lings, handful of mutas, and you cannot forget spines.
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watch the first rep. It wasn't a very strong push, but it's just an example
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I would like to see the replays where you hold a strong timing push, as this seems very vulnerable if your opponent scouts the fast lair.
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possibly, but you are stockpiling a lot of minerals in the meantime. I think this just hasn't been explored yet.
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How do you deal with vikings or other air units, do you switch to hydras or continue with brood lords?
Also have you consider making 1 infestor for fungel to counter blink stalkers a wee bit?
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well, you have mutas and corruptors that are +1, hopefully by then +2 to deal with air
and infestors would be great if you see blink stalkers. as I mentioned I just started, and I'm overall not that great of a player yet.
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You should check the game between WhiteRa and Lalush. Day9 and Soe casted one. Lalush went for earlyish Broods after spine defense to hold WhiteRa's early pressure on Shakuras. WhiteRa, of course, went for the new and improved Colossi + Void Ray + heavy Stalker ball.
+ Show Spoiler +Lalush remaxed well and held it. He skipped roaches while remaxing and went for some more infestors to keep the blink stalkers in check. The infestors also helped him hold the Colossi so the corruptors could calmly destroy them.
This could work, but its not a staple (yet?) by any means. I often "rush" to Broods early in 3v3s and 4v4. There it sure is fun if you got a terran buddy or two to hold fort for a bit. Lings are really good in team games to buy you time and still contribute meaningfully.
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I am definitly going to look for that rep right now, bsrealm, thanks :D
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On March 10 2011 07:55 PorkyPlague797 wrote:What started out as a radical idea I had, is now my main build vs protoss and terran. the idea is to not rush, but tech up to brood lords earlier then most would seem reasonable. the build isn't fully developed, but I will try to list it out in a way that makes sense. open 14gas/14pool drones off gas after speed, queen right away take natural while fully saturating main, put drones on gas when close to full saturation use lings to scout and defend, spines if there is any sort of push get lair out as you get gas. also get all gas going as soon as you get new bases there is somewhat of a timing I have found when going for the greater spire: -spire asap -start +1 air attack and infestation pit at the same time -start hive as soon as infestation pit finishes -the hive and the +1 attack will finish at almost the exact same time, then start greater spire. while the greater spire is making, be sure you have some corrupters out and ready following this general build/guideline, you should be able to make around 7 brood lords at the 15:00 minute mark. This is my first post, and I am only a 3k diamond player, so I am open to suggestions. Replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148476-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148477-1v1-protoss-zerg-backwater-gulch
I've been doing almost exactly that.
I have some replays to share if you want, but they are gold/plat level, so I don't know.
Another thing, I NEVER EVER get air attack upgrades, only carrapace. Most units that shoot air shoot pretty fast, or several projectiles, so armor is usually pretty good. TO mention: Hydras, Marines, Thors, Stalkers, Phoenixes, Mutas, Battlecruisers, Queens, Carriers, Mothership, Sentry. I think only the Viking has a significant damage per shot, otherwise everything else fires in small packages and armor is considerably better, even for your corruptors, that will be your anti-air.
Either way, people are preoccupied with early pushes. The thing is, SCOUT, this build is only viable if the opponent is massing 200/200 or expanding. If you scout early aggression defend it as you have been doing already. I, personally, throw down a roach warren and make more queens. Or, start making corruptors if air and I already have my spyre up .
The important thing is, get early gases. I usually build up around 1500 gas when my Greater Spyre goes up, so I can immediately build a ton of BLords. Kinda like you let gas build up before going muta.
This build works best against protoss, but can be used against Terran. Just don't let stimmed marines underneath your Brood Lords, else you lost the game already. I recommend making a small amount of banelings, and take advantage of the fact that the siege tanks will be too occupied firing against broodilngs to kill your banelings.
EDIT: Oh, and this is good against mid-game pushes because I mass upgrade with 2 evo chambers. By the time most mid-game pushes come, I am already 2/2 with my lings (Kinda like the VilePSY style, but I let my gas build up on purpose, and he still doesn't know what to do with it.)
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I'm scratching my head wondering why you'd try get early brood lords.
I feel like ZvZ you'd be better of with a muta swarm if you were planning on going air, as a muta swarm would come out faster, be far far more mobile and quite a bit cheaper than brood lords while being just as punishing to your opponent's lack of anti-air.
ZvP a broodlord push coming before colossus would be kind of ridiculous, but my gut is telling me that it'd be a pretty small if any window to hit. Once the 9 range colossus come out protoss gains the power to force you to retreat (or lose your ground army), your brood lords become a liability, as you can't retreat without losing them. You could argue that you could have corruptors in there as well to pick off the colossus... but then why are the brood lords there at all?
and ZvT you're sacrificing all your mobility to break his marine/tank line, which can be done with ling/bane/muta anyways.
I'm an idiot and probably dumber than I realize, but I just can't see brood lords fitting into any sane Zerg push. They're slow, extremely time-costly to reproduce and force you to use your army to defend them or lose. They feel all-in whenever they hit the field, because if you fight with them and lose the battle, they're dead with no hope of recovery... and they were extremely costly to produce.
... eh, maybe it could work. ling/bane/corruptor/broodlord, rush 3/3 ground (broodlings get the ups) for a ridiculous push against protoss. Still, it'd be hard to justify getting broodlords over ultras, there. Idk.
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On March 10 2011 08:02 LesPhoques wrote:
Most Toss players will go VoidRay+Colossi+Gateway, meaning broodlord are useless.
This also losses badly to 6 gate push, sorry but this wouldn't work in masters, for sure.
Actually it does work... Hadn't you seen the White-Ra vs LaLush game?
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Have you tried this build in ZvZ? I don't see why it couldn't work considering most players like to start by securing a third with just roaches and then add infestors or hydralisks, and having broodlords in your composition would give you an advantage over this comp if you had a similar ground army.
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Thanks for the input Jotoco. I think that is a great idea I need to think about, getting the defence upgrade. I also agree that if there is early aggression, you need to respond to it. I'm fairly certain that you can get roach/ ling/ spine defense without having to give up on brood lords.
This "build" is more of a game plan, rather then some sort of all in rush.
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On March 10 2011 08:25 Mauser wrote:
Have you tried this build in ZvZ? I don't see why it couldn't work considering most players like to start by securing a third with just roaches and then add infestors or hydralisks, and having broodlords in your composition would give you an advantage over this comp if you had a similar ground army.
lol... I haven't tried this vs another zerg unfortunately. My zvz is weak and nobody at my level seems to want the game to go on longer then 10 minutes.
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does anyone have the link to the whitera-lalush game handy?
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Rushing to Brood Lords in ZvP is really amazing. It does so much damage and isn't TOO difficult to manage.
What I do is Roaches with Tunneling claws and Corruptors. I snipe obs with corruptors and just try to hold the Toss off. Then i tech to Broods. I usually aim to get hive starting 14 minutes and broods before 18 minutes. Its really good cause If they get voids, you can just transition into zergling corruptor :D
edit:
replay of mine: [url blocked]
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that sounds good too, Deep. do corruptors work alright against more then one void though?
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On March 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote:
I'm scratching my head wondering why you'd try get early brood lords.
I feel like ZvZ you'd be better of with a muta swarm if you were planning on going air, as a muta swarm would come out faster, be far far more mobile and quite a bit cheaper than brood lords while being just as punishing to your opponent's lack of anti-air.
I'm not the OP, but he says it is a P and T only build, and I use something similar and in ZvZ it is suicide.
On March 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote:
ZvP a broodlord push coming before colossus would be kind of ridiculous, but my gut is telling me that it'd be a pretty small if any window to hit. Once the 9 range colossus come out protoss gains the power to force you to retreat (or lose your ground army), your brood lords become a liability, as you can't retreat without losing them. You could argue that you could have corruptors in there as well to pick off the colossus... but then why are the brood lords there at all?
It comes at almost the same time as Lance Colossus. Give or take some 30s. And Broodlords are surprisingly good against Colossus. So, if your enemy doesn't have air, don't be afraid to morph every corruptor to Broodlord. But if he has Voids/Phoenixes, obviously you need more Corruptors.
And here, one important thing is, without blink the stalkers can't really get to the broodlords, because all of the lings/broodlings in the way. And if he has blink, simply hold back your lings, wait for the blink and surround the stalkers while they are on cooldown, they will take a couple broods out, but at the cost of most or all the stalkers. This works because any zealot with stay behind because they can't blink and won't be meat shields for Stalkers.
On March 10 2011 08:23 Staboteur wrote:
and ZvT you're sacrificing all your mobility to break his marine/tank line, which can be done with ling/bane/muta anyways.
I'm an idiot and probably dumber than I realize, but I just can't see brood lords fitting into any sane Zerg push. They're slow, extremely time-costly to reproduce and force you to use your army to defend them or lose. They feel all-in whenever they hit the field, because if you fight with them and lose the battle, they're dead with no hope of recovery... and they were extremely costly to produce.
... eh, maybe it could work. ling/bane/corruptor/broodlord, rush 3/3 ground (broodlings get the ups) for a ridiculous push against protoss. Still, it'd be hard to justify getting broodlords over ultras, there. Idk.
Against Terran you rely on 2 things:
1 - 3/3 ling/banelings/broodlings TEAR through marines, and tank fire will help you kill marines faster. Really, siege tanks sieged are worse for Terran than zerg in this composition;
2 - Air Carapace (for me, at least) Marines take FOREVER to kill 0/2 or 0/3 broodlords. Chances are that your 3/3 ground and their own siege tanks will kill then before. and it is a LOT harder to rebuild your army as Terran than zerg. You can trade evenly with Terran and you're supposed to have better income, eventually you overrun him.
The response I got from Terrans, mostly are 2, Mass Vikings or Mass Thors. Neither work well. Corruptors will win in a straight up fight, and even then, your lings will be in their base killing everything because he can't make enough anti-ground forces. And thors don't do SHIT against Broods with upgrade.
The correct response from Terran is Hellion/Marine, actually.
And from Protoss is Zealot/Void Ray/sentry/Templar, not necessarily all of then, but at least zealot + 1 anti-air (voids or templar), as Broods are slow, templar do well against then, as they ignore armor.
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Right, I'm not saying it wouldn't work zvz, but its far too risky, and can be stopped in a heart beat. so far I haven't had much success vs terran also. I still feel like you need to open banelings, sometimes roaches, if they are going to do any pushing.
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Brood lords work in ZvZ late game. It works so well if your opponent DOESNT know that your going BL. If you do get BL in late zvz, you will most likely win. It is just very difficult to hide the tech and to get to late game.
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the next time my opponent wants to go for a macro game I will for sure try it
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Every build has counters, just because this one is a little weak to timing pushes doesn't make it unviable. I really like this build, I want to see someone try it in a high level game. This does have potential.
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On March 10 2011 08:37 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
that sounds good too, Deep. do corruptors work alright against more then one void though?
well just check out my replay
you have to have A LOT of corruptors and you also need to make sure you focus fire and corrupt them. If you don't, you essentially have to make another batch, but the thing is that its best to go Roach/tunneling/Corruptors into Roach/Brood Lord into Zergling/Corruptor, at least thats what i found best.
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Just watched your rep. That was quite different then what I was thinking. I'm not sure in your situation the brood lords really helped you win that, but the way you could go mass corruptor to kill air and collosus, then you were able to morph as many broods as you wanted was interesting.
I really liked the idea of having the overseers and corruptors to kill obs, then you could use burrow micro more effectively.
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Sorry to ask again, but does anyone know where I can find that lalush vs whitera game?
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Straight tech to brood without any thing else beside ling and spine just doesnt work at all.
1. Stalker collo (gold level "deathball") can already own u fast enough since collosus rape both broodlings and lings. After all ur lings are gon, they just have to blink in and clean up ur broodlords.
2. A 6 gate push with timing charged lot (a diamond+ level play) can already owned ur ling spine army before you even get your broods morphed.
3. Forge first fast expand put toss way ahead of you in econ since you have only lings. A full block (gate forge core) + 2 cannon behind guarantee they are safe for EVER, since you go only broods anyway dont you? Then switch to 5 gates 2 stargate production, With mainly zealots and a few supporting stalker and sentries (from the 4 gates) and 2 stargate just do 2 void and the rest phoenix (Startale AcE's build) can owned you before you even get your infestation pit up, as it hits around 7:50. (Master level play)
Now I read the entire thread. I saw you saying "yea im noob so dont trash my play, but I want opinion on my build". Then I saw you just denying every suggestion other people have made (some of previous suggestions have already mention how this would fail to a 6gates, which is wat my 2nd point was). Take some criticism and stop being stubborn..
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I believe this build has potential, and I believe it has problems, but I wont close this thread after one comment saying it won't work.
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On March 10 2011 09:37 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
I believe this build has potential, and I believe it has problems, but I wont close this thread after one comment saying it won't work.
The problem here, I think, is the lack of effort in the OP.
If you so much as described it more, why you do it, how you do it, and WHEN you do it, it would be a lot better.
Just don't throw stuff around and have people understand what you mean.
If you put more work towards your initial post, most people here wouldn't have post what they did, and the discussion would flow better.
If you can, please clean up the OP, put more info in it and make it look easier on the eyes, so people actually read it before replying.
I like this build, I do it too, and it would benefit everyone if the discussion was better, and for it to happen a better OP needs to be made, if possible.
Thanks for your effort, but I'm sure you can do better. If you need help doing it, PM me.
EDIT: I sound a little harsh above, but I don't mean to be mean or anything, just trying to help.
And you should probably change the title so it reads Brood Lord Game plan, because it has no definite build, really.
I do it while fast expanding too, and sometimes put down a roach warren or even Hydra den!
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How do you deal with a 4 gate/3 gate robo push? I see a lot of that in silver and nobody seems to like macro games (outside of the top 10 in a division, Silver 7 here)?
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On March 10 2011 09:12 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
Just watched your rep. That was quite different then what I was thinking. I'm not sure in your situation the brood lords really helped you win that, but the way you could go mass corruptor to kill air and collosus, then you were able to morph as many broods as you wanted was interesting.
I really liked the idea of having the overseers and corruptors to kill obs, then you could use burrow micro more effectively.
well i feel its safer with my build just because it has a stronger back bone to it. From what I can remember.... I haven't lost a zvp when i was doing this... now I THINK *IMPORTANT*. I'm not really sure If i have lost with it but it's concept is very similar to yours and it is possible. I just feel that yours is weak against a push justbecause your saving all your money for broods.
edit: oh and the corruptor/seer to kill obs wasn't for burrow micro of healing the weak ones, its a burrow so you can pass Force fields (just clarifying)
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On March 10 2011 09:45 NoisyNinja wrote:
How do you deal with a 4 gate/3 gate robo push? I see a lot of that in silver and nobody seems to like macro games (outside of the top 10 in a division, Silver 7 here)?
sorry, but this isn't the appropriate place to ask this question. Its best that you use the search function.
In order to deal with these, you need to know that they are doing it. The way I personally deal with them is spinecrawlers at my natural and lots of zerglings and maybe roaches. The key is to stop droning and make a crap ton of units. To see what they are doing, throw an overlord into their base at around 5 minutes (i think its 5) and then see what they have. Then you should start making units and defense. oh... and keep an eye to make sure he doesnt send out a probe. Try to kill his probe that he sends out so he cant make a proxy pylon, just dont lose all your units
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If you can see a fast push, such as a 4gate or 3gate robo, there is no sense in trying to continue with this plan straight up. If it is a 4gate, you need stop making drones around 20, and pump out a lot of lings, as well as make spines. I'm not sure on 3gate robo, because that could mean a lot of things, but still make sure you are well defended before continuing to drone.
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I understand that I could have put a lot more work into this post. This is literally my first time posting here.
Also, this is a strategy that I have only recently started using. It is still very much under development and polish. The reason I posted was to spark ideas, and share the replays I have to back it up.
I think this sort of thing could help zerg branch out more in the future, especially now that the new, larger maps have been added to the ladder.
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United States7483 Posts
I've found that a large number of spine crawlers will deter a lot of early aggression from protoss and give you time to get brood lords out, and brood lords with other units to shield them will tear through so much. Against a deathball, brood lords are freaking amazing, they'll have some VR's left after you kill everything on the ground, so remax on roach/hydras and walk over him. He'll have nothing left, and can't rebuild colossus quickly enough.
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Thanks for the response, guess I missed that daily 
In the game they played, Lalush held off a 5gate by Whitera, and got his brood lords out at around 17:30.
Once again, I'm not posting a guide to this new strategy, but this game is a great example of how something like this might viable soon.
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the best situation for this would probably be scrap station where you could massively spine up dimaga style and get corruptor/bl/ling
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On March 10 2011 09:37 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
I believe this build has potential, and I believe it has problems, but I wont close this thread after one comment saying it won't work.
Well, you're not a mod so you don't have to make that decision.
This build is horrible because you advocate blindly rushing some tech in any situation.
Saying "I don't rush tech" doesn't mean you don't rush tech. Clearly you are rushing tech.
As such, any player who scouts you is just going to attack you and win. Someone posted one of the first responses saying like "I can just 6gate you and gg." This is completely true.
You spend resources on the following before ever getting a unit that can attack ground with it:
Lair
Spire
Infestation Pit
Evolution Chamber
+1 attack (you do have some lings so this is ehh)
Hive
Greater Spire
XXX Corrupters
Do you see why this is clearly a bad strategy? If your opponent uses those resources to make units, and then just attacks you, you lose by a wide margin.
The ONLY time something like this (rushing tech) is EVER viable is when it hits a very specific timing window, and is usually in response to some very specific strategy (1-1-1 fast factory thor-drop cross-position LT TvZ as an example of a very specific build).
ONLY then is advocating some kind of strategy like this possibly viable.
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On March 10 2011 12:59 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 09:37 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
I believe this build has potential, and I believe it has problems, but I wont close this thread after one comment saying it won't work. Well, you're not a mod so you don't have to make that decision. This build is horrible because you advocate blindly rushing some tech in any situation. Saying "I don't rush tech" doesn't mean you don't rush tech. Clearly you are rushing tech. As such, any player who scouts you is just going to attack you and win. Someone posted one of the first responses saying like "I can just 6gate you and gg." This is completely true. You spend resources on the following before ever getting a unit that can attack ground with it: Lair Spire Infestation Pit Evolution Chamber +1 attack (you do have some lings so this is ehh) Hive Greater Spire XXX Corrupters Do you see why this is clearly a bad strategy? If your opponent uses those resources to make units, and then just attacks you, you lose by a wide margin. The ONLY time something like this (rushing tech) is EVER viable is when it hits a very specific timing window, and is usually in response to some very specific strategy (1-1-1 fast factory thor-drop cross-position LT TvZ as an example of a very specific build). ONLY then is advocating some kind of strategy like this possibly viable.
No, I see how it is very risky, but I don't see how it is a bad strategy. if some kind of push is coming, the zerg must obviously respond, even it it slows down this "tech rush". That is the great thing about zerg's mechanics. As long as you are on top of scouting, you should have the time and minerals to drop spines/spores/mass lings if something like a 6gate were to come.
I agree with you though. If someone just goes for brood lords without scouting, without responding, playing with a tunnel vision... they will loose every time.
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GAME 1: Typhon Peaks or something like that
+ Show Spoiler +You have a very interesting concept going on here... I feel that it is too weak because I do not understand how anybody can be so SAFE as you were in this game.
At around 18 minutes, you lose your entire army in your first push. Now keep in mind... you lost because you only had zerglings vs zealots... yeah not so great... sure you had 4k minerals 600 gas but you lost 4 broods, some corruptors and a lot of zerglings, and an opponent that had "meh" macro (not saying i'm any better, but he had 3k minerals and 600 gas...)
(18:27) oh... and he never counter attacked... he seriously could have attacked and hit you really hard: 20 zealots vs 8 zerglings at that point...
(21:11) when he did push you, he kinda messed up on how his units were organized and his unit composition. His zealots should of been on the outside. I feel this was a blunder on his fault, giving you the win.
from then on, the game was pretty much set on your side...
GAME 2: X'elnaga Caverns
+ Show Spoiler +
This one is a lot better than the first one, you are a lot safer because you actually got fighting units... but it is still zerglings.
To be honest, your better off going mass muta... I understand your tryingto come up with a new "style" but it seems really gimmicky...
A very good protoss with decent FF can kill you before you can get Brood Lords out...
other than that this game is somewhat better.
[url blocked] are some more game of the style of "brood rushing" that I do for anyone who is interested. These are some pretty lame game but its the jist (w/e that english term is) of it (i realy don't know if they really are the games I intended. I never name my games so god knows what they are...). I hope OP will seriously consider actually looking into it cause it IS somewhat like the style that you want. These games aren't perfect because my macro still needs working on and the person I got this style from has GOD macro so i hope you can learn from it.
edit:
and in case you are not taking me seriously:
http://sc2ranks.com/us/651304/Corrupted
Theres my rank...
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On March 10 2011 14:40 DeepCorrupted wrote:GAME 1: Typhon Peaks or something like that + Show Spoiler +You have a very interesting concept going on here... I feel that it is too weak because I do not understand how anybody can be so SAFE as you were in this game.
At around 18 minutes, you lose your entire army in your first push. Now keep in mind... you lost because you only had zerglings vs zealots... yeah not so great... sure you had 4k minerals 600 gas but you lost 4 broods, some corruptors and a lot of zerglings, and an opponent that had "meh" macro (not saying i'm any better, but he had 3k minerals and 600 gas...)
(18:27) oh... and he never counter attacked... he seriously could have attacked and hit you really hard: 20 zealots vs 8 zerglings at that point...
(21:11) when he did push you, he kinda messed up on how his units were organized and his unit composition. His zealots should of been on the outside. I feel this was a blunder on his fault, giving you the win.
from then on, the game was pretty much set on your side... GAME 2: X'elnaga Caverns + Show Spoiler +
This one is a lot better than the first one, you are a lot safer because you actually got fighting units... but it is still zerglings.
To be honest, your better off going mass muta... I understand your tryingto come up with a new "style" but it seems really gimmicky...
A very good protoss with decent FF can kill you before you can get Brood Lords out...
other than that this game is somewhat better.
[url blocked] are some more game of the style of "brood rushing" that I do for anyone who is interested. These are some pretty lame game but its the jist (w/e that english term is) of it (i realy don't know if they really are the games I intended. I never name my games so god knows what they are...). I hope OP will seriously consider actually looking into it cause it IS somewhat like the style that you want. These games aren't perfect because my macro still needs working on and the person I got this style from has GOD macro so i hope you can learn from it. edit: and in case you are not taking me seriously: http://sc2ranks.com/us/651304/CorruptedTheres my rank...
Still have to watch the rest of your replays, but I think your what your doing is better then how I have started using brood lords. I was thinking that roaches would work well with them, because the broodlings will hold stuff back as your ranged roaches spit away. You use a much more solid build then I would, In my case I would have to rely on scouting any push the instant it moves out, then throw up a ton of spines and lings.
thanks for the reps, I'll probably use them to work on my own play.
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I can see this working as long as you catch the Protoss off guard. The only problem with this build that I see is that if the Protoss goes robo, he's practically guaranteed to scout it and should be able to counter it. If he goes stargate, he can switch to voids. And if he goes twilight, he can get blink.
It seems as if this build relies on bad scouting and reaction imo.
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With how awesome upgraded zerglings are turning out to be against toss, setting broodlords as a more late-midgame rather than "uber-late-game" may start making sense. Worst thing that happens is you need to abort and use the corruptors against colossi - this really isn't the worst thing to have happen, at least you have a unit you probably need. I don't see psi storm really hitting the field significantly earlier than broods if you have a clear goal to aim for broods.
The loosely ordered game plan I'd put this in is something like:
Hatchery + Pool + Ling speed
Evo chamber (ling upgrades) + Lair + 4 gases
Spire+3rd base (Mass ling should get you some map control to take a third with.)
Air carapace + Some mutas + Infestation pit + hive + 6 gases
Corruptors instead of mutas if he's going pretty heavily VRcolossus.
Greater spire + Adrenal glands into broods.
Maybe should put a second evo chamber in there somewhere... around the time of the third?
Fourth base is kinda dependent on how the game is going.
I think you'll want pathogen glands + infestors if you need to deal with blink, but lings might be able to handle it themselves - lings deal quite well with blink stalker except for the whole cliff problem.
Air carapace imo should be the upgrade of choice on broods. They can get quite tanky!
Maybe build a lot of queens too. Like seriously, a lot. Transfusing brood lords is retarded, and they are pretty good at punishing air units for coming in range of the broods (Range 7 baby!)
Only problem is their upgrades dont really sync into your ling/broodling centric upgrade path. Oh well. They're still tanky as hell themselves, too, and it's not like you don't have minerals to blow.
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How viable is getting like 4-5 Queens with your army? They can tank decently since their Psionic and they can transfuse the Brood Lords. Any thoughts?
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Gah!
Just played about 10 games today, and couldn't do this strat ONCE.
Got close positions on every map, metalopolis, slag pit... And everyone proceded to 2rax into 5 rax, me. Or Blue flame hellions into thor drops, or mass banshee... Even a 6 gate, and another 4 gate!
I like this strat, but it is hard to find a situation where it is usable.
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On March 10 2011 16:26 Teth wrote:
How viable is getting like 4-5 Queens with your army? They can tank decently since their Psionic and they can transfuse the Brood Lords. Any thoughts?
It is excellent if you can spread creep, I use it. As I said in another thread: "It is borderline imba"
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http://blip.tv/file/4859569
This game is also something of that sort. Monsieur LaLush (as Day[9] says) gets hive tech and greater spire off 2 base and then expands like a mad man. You can use this game as a guide for a ZvP variation of this build. His +1 air attack timing is also similar to what you said (iirc).
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Yeah, extra queens would compliment this strat well. It seems like it can be infinitely improved depending on how much you can invest into micro/apm. to be able to utilize queens and infestors would make the blords much stronger.
And, to Jotoco, I'm sorry dude
Most of my success was on the new maps, or cross positions. You pretty much have to abandon the strat if an all in is coming, and any other strong push requires a delay.
One of the last games I had played was against a Terran who sent out an early MMM timing push.
once I scouted, the only option was to make lings/blings/spines. I didn't have any trouble holding it, so I went back to teching, and eventually had my brood lords out and destroying his base.
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I think you should build a TON of queens with that. They will help you defend, the creep will somehow make up for the map control that you give up and most importantly: Transfused Brood Lords are happy Brood Lords!
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On March 10 2011 08:34 DeepCorrupted wrote:
Rushing to Brood Lords in ZvP is really amazing. It does so much damage and isn't TOO difficult to manage.
What I do is Roaches with Tunneling claws and Corruptors. I snipe obs with corruptors and just try to hold the Toss off. Then i tech to Broods. I usually aim to get hive starting 14 minutes and broods before 18 minutes. Its really good cause If they get voids, you can just transition into zergling corruptor :D
edit:
replay of mine: [url blocked]
Your broods hit at the 22 minute mark, the toss was ahead by about 30 probes after his DT harass and the broods didn't win you the game so the strategy suggested in this thread is a bit irrelevant to the thread content.
but nevertheless, i agree with you that it can be strong if you hold off his initial pushes with minimum losses.
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Another concept I want to test out soon is to fly a couple of your corruptors around, behind their mineral lines to morph into broods as soon as the greater spire finishes. They will do massive damage, but will be left to die if their isn't much room behind the cliffs, or the opponent has air units.
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Don't be too quick to dismiss this build. Obviously it has its flaws but it is quite good in the right situations. I love using this build in ZvP because it handles 4 gates quite well and discourages your opponent from getting collosi (which often throws off their build.)
Here's roughly what I do:
- 14 gas 14 pool
- 2+ queens (spread creep as fast as possible)
- 3-4 spine crawlers (either at ramp or natural choke)
- Scout with lings and expand if you see tech/early expand
- Get lair and add 3-4 more spine crawlers
- Never stop expanding creep
- As soon as lair finishes put down spire
- Active scouting with lings, overlords and overseers
- Get evo chamber and start researching melee attack
- Get out 4+ corruptors for air defense
- Armor upgrade on air, Infestation pit, and tech to hive
- Continue adding on spine crawlers/corruptors/zerglings depending on his army composition (if you feel really scared you can throw down a roach warren for extra defense)
- Morph to greater spire and continue getting melee upgrades
- Turn approximately 1/3-1/2 of your corruptors into brood lords (depending on opponent's army composition)
- Begin slow pushing with spine crawlers, corruptors and brood lords (keep lings/roaches in the back)
- If opponent over commits pull back brood lords and punish them with zerglings/roaches
This build is very similar in style to a Terran mech push. Spine crawlers and brood lords act similar to siege tanks while corruptors act as vikings and lings/roaches acts as infantry. Like a mech build, proper control and positioning is vital. Also like a mech army, this build is weak against mobile armies (especially drops) and is suited for direct pushing (i.e. attack their main, not their expos.) It can also be difficult to secure a third/fourth with this build depending on the map. However, if executed properly, this army composition allows you to contain and starve an opponent while allowing you to expand.
I've found that opponents are often caught off guard and sack large amounts of units trying to break the contain. This build really comes down to who makes the first big mistake. If you opponent engages while you are properly set up you should be able to decimate an equal food army. However, if you over extend yourself and aren't properly prepared it is easy to be overrun.
I like the idea of adding infestors to the build but I'm not sure if you'd have enough gas to support it (it might end up diluting and thereby weakening the build.)
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I've found that queen/roach can hold pretty much any toss push until he starts getting close to deathball status, without using much gas. I race to about 22 drones while pumping queens, and then start pumping roaches (until toss expands and I can start making drones again). When I decide he's not about to push, I build lair, then spire/pit, then hive, then greater hive in quick succession, while getting ranged upgrades for the queens. you'll have corrupters to help against early collosi, queens own void rays, roaches with transfuse support own gateway units, and you'll have broodlords out (with lots of queens to support them) before the toss gets to critical mass. Everything does fine against templars. You need to add hydras if your opponent goes immortals instead of collosus (but not too many, and they will delay your broods). As I said earlier, queens OWN early toss air... and I'm guessing if he just sits back and masses voidrays to the point where you can't keep your queens alive with transfuse... well, you'll need to add something else that shoots up there too  The number is very high though lol.
Queens and broodlords off creep move at similar speeds too, and both have really good range and are very tanky. The problem is that it is hard to take a third or deal with drops past the early game...but you need to do so or you just won't have enough stuff gosu transfuses or not. I would love to see someone with pro level macro run this strat so that everything is upgraded on time and the broodlords are super fast... but even with my crappy play it wins against just about everything I've faced.
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I like having extra queens too for voidrays, but I lost a couple games tonight to voidray + 4gate all ins. Probably the most important thing when going for brood lords is to scout :\
As for the roach defense, I think you can make the roach warren and then wait until you scout a push before you start cranking them out.
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On March 11 2011 11:48 NinjaDrone wrote:
Don't be too quick to dismiss this build. Obviously it has its flaws but it is quite good in the right situations. I love using this build in ZvP because it handles 4 gates quite well and discourages your opponent from getting collosi (which often throws off their build.)
Here's roughly what I do:
- 14 gas 14 pool
- 2+ queens (spread creep as fast as possible)
- 3-4 spine crawlers (either at ramp or natural choke)
- Scout with lings and expand if you see tech/early expand
- Get lair and add 3-4 more spine crawlers
- Never stop expanding creep
- As soon as lair finishes put down spire
- Active scouting with lings, overlords and overseers
- Get evo chamber and start researching melee attack
- Get out 4+ corruptors for air defense
- Armor upgrade on air, Infestation pit, and tech to hive
- Continue adding on spine crawlers/corruptors/zerglings depending on his army composition (if you feel really scared you can throw down a roach warren for extra defense)
- Morph to greater spire and continue getting melee upgrades
- Turn approximately 1/3-1/2 of your corruptors into brood lords (depending on opponent's army composition)
- Begin slow pushing with spine crawlers, corruptors and brood lords (keep lings/roaches in the back)
- If opponent over commits pull back brood lords and punish them with zerglings/roaches
This build is very similar in style to a Terran mech push. Spine crawlers and brood lords act similar to siege tanks while corruptors act as vikings and lings/roaches acts as infantry. Like a mech build, proper control and positioning is vital. Also like a mech army, this build is weak against mobile armies (especially drops) and is suited for direct pushing (i.e. attack their main, not their expos.) It can also be difficult to secure a third/fourth with this build depending on the map. However, if executed properly, this army composition allows you to contain and starve an opponent while allowing you to expand.
I've found that opponents are often caught off guard and sack large amounts of units trying to break the contain. This build really comes down to who makes the first big mistake. If you opponent engages while you are properly set up you should be able to decimate an equal food army. However, if you over extend yourself and aren't properly prepared it is easy to be overrun.
I like the idea of adding infestors to the build but I'm not sure if you'd have enough gas to support it (it might end up diluting and thereby weakening the build.)
Thanks for sharing your build. Love the comparison to the Terran tank push, it feels exactly like that, only I'd say the tanks are the ling/banelings. If the marines (in zvt at least) move out too far they'll get shelled by the ling/blings, while the brood lords poke to get the marines out.
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On March 11 2011 18:47 PorkyPlague797 wrote:
I like having extra queens too for voidrays, but I lost a couple games tonight to voidray + 4gate all ins. Probably the most important thing when going for brood lords is to scout :\
As for the roach defense, I think you can make the roach warren and then wait until you scout a push before you start cranking them out.
well its obviously not something you can do against one base all-ins as any large techs will get you in trouble
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EPT
