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Three words counter this build.
Slow, turret, push.
If you read the original thread (as well as try out the build itself) you'll realize that it's just MutaLingBling in a terran's clothing. Move out slow with a pack of scvs building turrets/bunkers while leap frogging siege tanks.
Will you be behind economically? Yes. Either you have no defenses at your mineral line and lose all your scvs, or a small clump of your already immobile army is staying at home on guard duty, in which case your opponent expands over and over again.
Move slow, defend your base and army with turrets, snipe expansions, expand yourself, know tha this game will last for about an hour.
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I dont know if its the general bad execution, but I am relieved when I see my opponent go for this build.
Thors, vikings, bio, everything counters it really.
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On February 12 2011 23:12 morimacil wrote:
Well a fast second gas, along with a fast factory isnt really uncommon at all, if hes going for banshees for example, which is a very coomon opening, then thats what you will see. No marines production after the first 2 would be pretty hard to scout with anything else than a reaper, same thing with the second factory, so yeah, you would have to do a blind reaper opening.
So unless you plan to do a blind reaper opening against everything, its not a great idea.
Plus, Im not sure that reapers would really do all that well anyway.
The first one is up against 2 marines and a hellion, so kinda hard to do all that much damage with it.
If you wait too long, and he starts to get multiple hellions, blue flame, or a banshee, then the reapers become quite bad.
Plus, you would need like 4 rax with tech labs to keep up with the production off 2 factories, 1 with reactor.
And SCVs can be pulled and set to autorepair. At which point a reaper doesnt stand a chance against a hellion plus his SCV.
Its the same thing every single time a new build pops up. People always ask themselves: "What unit can I make to counter it?!"
Instead, in most cases, the better question is, what timing can I abuse? How can I simcity? How can I position better? Should I expand more, or less, or play more aggressively, or more defensively?
Its very rare for the answer to any decent build to be "just build unit X!"
Its not just build unit X, the timing of the first reaper is faster than the first hellion. When the reaper is in the base, the hellion is far from finished. So you're up against two marines that can be avoided due to the speed of the reaper, you dont have to lose it. You can at least get a few scv kills with it.
I'm not saying you should always open with a blind reaper, but a blind reaper opening is not uncommon and this build is not the only build its useful against. So, it can happen. A fast reaper will scout this build, without question. Two factories with one techlab means blue flame hellions, that's all you need to know at that point. It also means the banshee's will not be coming right away, since they are delayed due to the 2nd factory and blue flame research. That's valuable information, it gives you time to prepare for the blue flame drop instead of a banshee rush.
Anyway,the reaper isnt important, its just a means to scout. The underlying aspect is that this build can be scouted early, giving you 2-3 minutes to prepare for the blue frame drop. What if you get a viking out and kill the dropship? Can the 2fact2port build recover from that? Is the build still viable if the first blue flame drop is stopped?
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Whenever I see something odd or gimmicky, I simply respond with as standard play as possible- it's been used for months well, there's a reason for it. Simply position stuff better- I found that I needed to move things around, and I was ok.
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I think a big part of defeating this build will be improving simcity. It's been noted a few times that building placement was generally more important in BW than in SC2, but to beat this build it seems like you're really going to have to start considering doing things like walling in your mineral line with depots and your e-bay.
I can't say this for sure, since I don't know the timings, but I'd imagine a 1 rax FE that rushed for a defensive thor would stand a good chance of weathering the storm. That's not to say it wouldn't suffer any economic damage, but all you have to do is come out with a net positive, and the FE is going to put you significantly ahead of the build's very late expand, and also give you access to 2x the scans.
I'm generally rushing to siege when I FE in TvT, so I just have to figure out, by the time my factory finishes, whether I should be building an armory or not.
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you just gotta play better. the build is a viable option in tvt but it is not unbeatable. I have played with it like 20 times and my success rate is around 50-60% (could be higher, you can lose pretty easily if you make tiny mistakes). I've also played standard builds against opponents going for it.
I believe a good response to the build is to get a few of everything. don't let the opponent relax, build vikings out of a reactored starport. get more marines and save some scans for fighting cloaked banshees. getting just 2 thors is enough to force the opponent into going either BCs or marauders (no infrastructure for those).
overall, I like the build and I'll probably use it from time to time, especially in bo3s and stuff but I'm not sure if it will continue to be that strong. although as iEchoic said the build has much more potential, the proper response to it (being really really good structure positioning/base defense) might end up nullyfing its effectiveness.
either way, the build certainly did not break tvt but more like exactly the opposite.I love the build and it's good to see even more variety in TvT ^^
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The way to beat this is to place tanks at your mineral lines and deny hellion harass and a turret to deny if the other dude is going for stealth ban.cheese.Your response to this build should be marine,tank,viking.iEcholic said that this build is like muta,ling,bling so what u do against it?You spread your marines position tanks right deny muta harass.I almost forgot...and the build is 1 base play because with that build you can't afford to expand and build from all 4 buildings so in some point you have to stop making units and make a expo so that is where the build fails i think.If you deny harass and attack when he is expoing you have the game in the bag
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In the original post by iEchoic he said repeatedly that you have to think of what you would do if you were a zerg in ZvT (ie hellions as bane vikings/banshees muta) could it not be possible just to employ the tactics that you would use against a Zerg player on this stratagy and still be able to make a decent play of the game?
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Pretty fuuny, I've played 2 guys who tried to beat me with this strategy, at first I thought they weren't trying but when I saw them nerd raging really hard, I was like wtf you should try time boob.
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On February 12 2011 23:50 Baggiez wrote:
I regularly 1 rax FE and I got torched by this on Blistering Sands.
Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up.
I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL.
3k masters.
your actions, unit choice and decision making don't hint even diamond, let alone masters.
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I haven't read every post in the tread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
But many people have mentioned that you can just outproduce your opponent's vikings. How do you expect to be able to do that when your opponent opened with 2ports? The original build calls for the player to absolutely, at all costs, have more vikings than his opponent. There's no way your opponent should be able to do that unless they started producing them before you.
Also, I'm just some midlevel Diamond scrub, but I do kinda think this will break TvT. It makes me wonder if Blizz will bring goliaths back just so there's an armored ground answer to vikings. The only other option is marines, which of course, are microwaved by our adorable hellions.
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this isn't even close to breaking tvt lol.
I think it's a great build to use sometimes, but I would not rely only on this style.
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On February 13 2011 02:01 Ramivacation wrote:
I haven't read every post in the tread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
But many people have mentioned that you can just outproduce your opponent's vikings. How do you expect to be able to do that when your opponent opened with 2ports? The original build calls for the player to absolutely, at all costs, have more vikings than his opponent. There's no way your opponent should be able to do that unless they started producing them before you.
Also, I'm just some midlevel Diamond scrub, but I do kinda think this will break TvT. It makes me wonder if Blizz will bring goliaths back just so there's an armored ground answer to vikings. The only other option is marines, which of course, are microwaved by our adorable hellions.
when he's producing vikings he's not producing banshees.
just play standard siege, marine, add a thor, mass vikings and stop complaining.
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Get thors they own banshees and kite battlecruisers
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Reading through all the comments that have been put as responce to this question, i am happy that i dont have this same problem or the amount of different opinions on here would drive me insane lol,
If one of you has a repaly or video showing how to beat it then show, otherwise ur just giving a meaningless opinion of how to do something without knowing that persons skill playstyle or particular problems in that matchup, give us useful information please,
At what time would you be able to scout or scan to see if thats the build he is going,
On what maps does it work better or worse on,
The general idea every1 is putting foward is the fact that vikings beat banshee and thor rush is very strong ect ect, When really instead of worrying about units watch a replay of the match you lost,,, see when he was weakest, where agression from you may have either threw him off his build a bit or completly crushed him, these terrans are working from a build order they have seen, they are copying sum1 else's compositions, it would not take much aggresion early on to throw them off a bit, most games are lost becuase of a silly mistakes like waiting around too long or not using ur units too their potential, not because he went banshee helion and thats OP, becuase tbh i have heard the same thing about 3 rax stim push,,,2 factory tank push
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Doesnt break TvT
However this build is sick, extremely creative cool style. Im a huge micro player and this style is just perfect.
Keep em coming iechoic!
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5rine 1 hellion push hits @ a critical timing if i'm not mistaken and can do a significant amount of dmg.
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I don't understand what the problem with adding turrets is and walling your mineral line with your depots. This build is essentially blue flame hellion harass dependent. If that doesn't go well this build is absolute rubbish. Even if it gets to mid game you can use banshees and hellions like muta/bling, but once you get 2 turrets around your tanks and slow push, there's nothing that build can do.
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The problem with the whole "free reign on mineral line" thing
I think would work very well with what I do as Protoss VS Zerg early game against Zerglings.
Instead of walling off the front, wall off the mineral line.
This is by no means "new" but it might work vs hellions.. and switching into vikings shouldnt be too hard
But it's kind of iffy if you block off your own base =S
I'm by no means a Terran player but the idea is that there's no way iEchoic's build breaks TvT
Take the GuineaPig build back in GSL 3.... [Forge FE 1 gate 2 stargates, 3 voidrays + 5 phoenixes + mass VR into chargelot colossi]
It still works great but once infestors are in, it's over.
my point is that TvT hasnt been "broken" at all.
I argued with this topic against my friend.
But after seeing the build, it works stronger early game than late game vs a tank viking player for sure
Once marines and tanks reach critical mass... it's done for the hellion / banshee player imo, but i really haven't seen this done yet cuz the build just works so well in denying everything early game.
This definitely turns heads on how to turtle, not just the front but the base itself as a whole
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It seems to me that the lesson TvT has been teaching in stages is the crucial importance of air-dominance for TvT. First, it was when tank-viking became popular, but people realized that a higher-vikign but lower-tank count would win due to sight advantages. Now Echoic has realized you don't even need the tank part, you can just spam air/hellions and then clean up ground with banshees. Perhaps the next evolution is going to a 2-base three-port build (perhaps with mech support to take away hellions), and then have a couple of either tanks or thors run over hellions.
In the short term, I think a 2 or 3 thor push would do horrible, horrible things to Echoic's build, particularly if the thor player can prevent significant economic damage by walling his front and then stationing troops in his mineral line.
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EPT
