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So the general solution people seem to be saying is well I'll fast expand, or go tank viking maybe turrets so i'm harass proof get air dominanacy, or turtle to 200/200 then attack, or just get thor army.
So many things wrong with this. First off its already been shown, if you try and fast expo, 1 rax or 2 rax, you will lose scv's period. You simply don't have the forces to kill the helions in time. It has also been shown that tank/viking will not get air superiority. Some people say he spends all his ga/time in banshee. The 2 prt 2 fact should only make alot of banshee's if you are going heavy maraduer, he only needs a couple otherwise.
Do to the iechoic build you can't deny his scouting, he can easily poke around the base, and if u did turtle it up with turrets etc, he still has scans. This means he should know what to stop making vikings/banshees etc.
Next point, 1 siege tank in mineral line stops harass. It takes a seige tank 9 shots to kill a typical 3 blue flae helion push, meaning you need alot more than 1 tank to stop the harass, he's more than happy to trade 3 helions for 10 marines OR 10 scv's.
Well what if I turtle with sensor towers and push with missle turret/tank/bunker etc. Well the build actually tells you to expand like zerg against a turtle, fi you both 2 base 2 base and he can't harass, he should just double expand knowing u won't move out.
Why can't i wait for 200/200 tank thor viking mix etc and push? The iechoic build specifically calls for him t tech switch to upgrade BC's with vikings. Meaning a 200/200 army shoudl be mainly against BC/viking/banshee mix with just a couple helions. Once BC's come out he uses helions as expansion check not major army comp so he gets fewer. Btw gl stopping BC's if he has more vikings(cause u have so many tanks/thors) or without mass marines(you stopped makign cause helions burnt them all).
Honestly the weakness of this build, is that requires TONS of scouting and reacting. This build is very techinical and can theoretically deal with any build/push thrown at it. The problem is that a player needs to react appropriatly to what he sees. Most terrans won't expand to 3-4 base and will prolly just make helion/banshee with handful of vikings cause they don't scout proactively.
Iechoic has been running this build for a good while and is one of the top NA terrans, so he has played alot of very good players and considering he still supports this build; even top players haven't come up with a hard counter or gaurnteed strat. This build just relies on great execution and reaction, aka your typical mid level masters of diamond terran player will not execute it properly (especially considering their inexperience with the build) and will get beat by standard builds that players can execute very well do to tons of practice with it already.
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On February 13 2011 02:05 danielsan wrote:
when he's producing vikings he's not producing banshees.
just play standard siege, marine, add a thor, mass vikings and stop complaining.
I'm not complaining. I plan on using this playstyle exclusively in TvT.
Also, you only need a few banshees for this to work. There's no way your opponent should be able to out-viking you if they're getting tanks and vikings. If the game goes on long enough to where your opponent can even get a thor, you should be able to get cruisers.
If your hellion drop gets shut down (which is hard to accomplish) and he was getting vikings before tanks, it's possible he could have more. He likely won't have a second starport. Have a reactor ready and swap out a techlab and then you can outproduce him.
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On February 13 2011 02:00 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 23:50 Baggiez wrote:
I regularly 1 rax FE and I got torched by this on Blistering Sands.
Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up.
I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL.
3k masters. your actions, unit choice and decision making don't hint even diamond, let alone masters.
From my OP you can infer:
actions - FE, build turrets, moving out with marauders
unit choice - marine marauder
decision making = same as actions?
Considering I went 1rax FE and took a relatively late gas, I was pretty restricted in my unit production capabilities. I had to produce from what I had while trying to tech but I was overwhelmed pretty quickly (and considering he was constantly harassing my mineral line, I wasn't doing too great economy wise). iEchoic has stated that he considers that a 1/2 rax FE is an awful opening against this build, but I'd already FE'd by the time I saw the factories and I'd not played against it before, so I was caught off gaurd.
I don't really see where you get off insulting my skill.
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I'm only at 2k masters (and I'm a random player), but I used this build in my last 3 TvTs and won even though my macro was astoundingly terrible. I don't understand why people keep saying that the mid-game army of helion/banshee/viking is weak -- I've found that even macroing horrendously (like 1500 minerals banked) I've been able to wipe the floor with bio or marine/tank in head on battles doing little more than 1-a ing and then microing the helions to get good splash on marines.
I'm not at a super high level (i get matched against usually 2500-2700 pt master's), I've been able to win even though I've executed the build relatively poorly. Some of my opponent's have put a siege tank in the mineral line, but 1 tank in siege mode doesn't stop 4-8 helions from torching 50-100% of the scv's before dying.
Since a lot of people seem to say that they get easy wins against the build by playing standard (where as I have gotten easy wins by using the build), could people please post some replays of them beating the build? I won't post mine of winning since they are ugly, my opponents are not that great, and Echoic's replays are better anyways.
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Not a single replay posted. 
Could some of the masters-league players posting in this thread post some replays, it would be VERY interesting. 
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On February 13 2011 02:55 Baggiez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 02:00 danielsan wrote:On February 12 2011 23:50 Baggiez wrote:
I regularly 1 rax FE and I got torched by this on Blistering Sands.
Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up.
I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL.
3k masters. your actions, unit choice and decision making don't hint even diamond, let alone masters. From my OP you can infer: actions - FE, build turrets, moving out with marauders unit choice - marine marauder decision making = same as actions? Considering I went 1rax FE and took a relatively late gas, I was pretty restricted in my unit production capabilities. I had to produce from what I had while trying to tech but I was overwhelmed pretty quickly (and considering he was constantly harassing my mineral line, I wasn't doing too great economy wise). iEchoic has stated that he considers that a 1/2 rax FE is an awful opening against this build, but I'd already FE'd by the time I saw the factories and I'd not played against it before, so I was caught off gaurd. I don't really see where you get off insulting my skill.
sorry, don't take it personal. It wasn't about your overall skill, which should be quite high considering you're 3k masters but your gameplan for that specific match.
"I regularly go 1 rax FE" makes me think you just go FE and try to make it happen, you don't have triggers to do so or to delay. More so, FE on Blistering?
"I scouted it early" - you had plenty of time to prepare. For some reason, and this is more like a general rule, I see everybody rushing to mine natural even though they know it's not safe. I've seen it happen in GSL, i've seen it happen in random casts, i've seen it happen on master streams. It's kindergarden risk management. You know he's one basing, and doing the Echoic stuff, why not keep your cc inbase a little longer, benefit from mules and overproduce scv. You are still miles ahead.
You would be even further mining natural, but you will also be dead.
On February 13 2011 02:41 snadmonkey wrote:
It has also been shown that tank/viking will not get air superiority. Some people say he spends all his ga/time in banshee.
How exactly has it been shown?
Slow down apocalyptic monkey, it's just a build like every other
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On February 13 2011 03:46 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 02:55 Baggiez wrote:On February 13 2011 02:00 danielsan wrote:On February 12 2011 23:50 Baggiez wrote:
I regularly 1 rax FE and I got torched by this on Blistering Sands.
Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up.
I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL.
3k masters. your actions, unit choice and decision making don't hint even diamond, let alone masters. From my OP you can infer: actions - FE, build turrets, moving out with marauders unit choice - marine marauder decision making = same as actions? Considering I went 1rax FE and took a relatively late gas, I was pretty restricted in my unit production capabilities. I had to produce from what I had while trying to tech but I was overwhelmed pretty quickly (and considering he was constantly harassing my mineral line, I wasn't doing too great economy wise). iEchoic has stated that he considers that a 1/2 rax FE is an awful opening against this build, but I'd already FE'd by the time I saw the factories and I'd not played against it before, so I was caught off gaurd. I don't really see where you get off insulting my skill. sorry, don't take it personal. It wasn't about your overall skill, which should be quite high considering you're 3k masters but your gameplan for that specific match. "I regularly go 1 rax FE" makes me think you just go FE and try to make it happen, you don't have triggers to do so or to delay. More so, FE on Blistering? "I scouted it early" - you had plenty of time to prepare. For some reason, and this is more like a general rule, I see everybody rushing to mine natural even though they know it's not safe. I've seen it happen in GSL, i've seen it happen in random casts, i've seen it happen on master streams. It's kindergarden risk management. You know he's one basing, and doing the Echoic stuff, why not keep your cc inbase a little longer, benefit from mules and overproduce scv. You are still miles ahead. You would be even further mining natural, but you will also be dead.
You're right in what you say, but we live and learn.
Regarding your specific point - I did scout it early and in response switched to triple tech lab marauders and got down some quick turrets. After doing this and losing I guess one my options would have been to stick with 1/2 tech lab rax and quickly tech to viking (even if he produces more than me eventually, it'll halt his banshee production long enough for me to get up more static defence). Maybe someone with more experience can come in on this one?
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![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5817/hellionproof.jpg)
Im thinking sim city similar to this would work quite well at stopping any hellion or banshee harass.
They can harass a bit from the edges, but nothing very scary.
Or actually, now that I think about it, youd actually want to set the turrets farther out, and not clumped up in the building ring.
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On February 13 2011 03:46 danielsan wrote:
"I scouted it early" - you had plenty of time to prepare. For some reason, and this is more like a general rule, I see everybody rushing to mine natural even though they know it's not safe. I've seen it happen in GSL, i've seen it happen in random casts, i've seen it happen on master streams. It's kindergarden risk management. You know he's one basing, and doing the Echoic stuff, why not keep your cc inbase a little longer, benefit from mules and overproduce scv. You are still miles ahead.
To be fair, the build has no tells. You force out the scouting worker before the 2nd refinery goes down and the 1rax FE comes before there's any way you could tell what build he's doing. Shortly after you'll see one hellion poking around but that reveals nothing.
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Why do we have two threads for the same topic? Why can't this discussion exist in the existing thread about the build order?
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I don't play T at all, but it seems like iEchoic's build relies on econ harass and has very little ability to attack a front early. 1-rax expand struggles to keep SCVs alive because it's spread out and doesn't have tech to shut down the mobility of hellions and banshees, but what's stopping the 1-rax expanding player from putting up 2 bunkers at each mineral line? I know that's a big investment in defense, but the expansion is so much earlier than all you really have to do is keep your SCVs alive long enough to get your tech online to secure a big lead. Ordinarily, devoting 400 minerals in bunkers and 12 marines (3 in each bunker should be plenty) to defending mineral lines would leave your front open, but a couple bunkers at the front will keep you safe against a much larger force of hellion-banshee.
Again, I don't play T, but it seems like turtling really hard on 2 bases should work.
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On February 13 2011 06:05 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 03:46 danielsan wrote:
"I scouted it early" - you had plenty of time to prepare. For some reason, and this is more like a general rule, I see everybody rushing to mine natural even though they know it's not safe. I've seen it happen in GSL, i've seen it happen in random casts, i've seen it happen on master streams. It's kindergarden risk management. You know he's one basing, and doing the Echoic stuff, why not keep your cc inbase a little longer, benefit from mules and overproduce scv. You are still miles ahead.
To be fair, the build has no tells. You force out the scouting worker before the 2nd refinery goes down and the 1rax FE comes before there's any way you could tell what build he's doing. Shortly after you'll see one hellion poking around but that reveals nothing.
EDIT:Misread horrible.
I apologize.
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On February 13 2011 08:32 DemiSe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2011 06:05 iEchoic wrote:On February 13 2011 03:46 danielsan wrote:
"I scouted it early" - you had plenty of time to prepare. For some reason, and this is more like a general rule, I see everybody rushing to mine natural even though they know it's not safe. I've seen it happen in GSL, i've seen it happen in random casts, i've seen it happen on master streams. It's kindergarden risk management. You know he's one basing, and doing the Echoic stuff, why not keep your cc inbase a little longer, benefit from mules and overproduce scv. You are still miles ahead.
To be fair, the build has no tells. You force out the scouting worker before the 2nd refinery goes down and the 1rax FE comes before there's any way you could tell what build he's doing. Shortly after you'll see one hellion poking around but that reveals nothing. No tells? Doesn't your build involve stopping marine production after 2 marines? I strongly think that a standard 1hellion, 4marine push will give me a sufficient amount of information to determine what you're doing.
The guy said he was FEing, a FE comes before a 4marine 1 hellion poke hits. Someone was telling him not to FE if he scouted it.
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Im 3200 T and countless terrans are attempting to use this.
I just open quick banshee cloak (if you follow iechoics BO your first banshee with cloak will come the same time ur opponents medivac is half way done)
My cloak banshee can see the drop coming (lotsa hellions) and i can prepare effectively (move whole army into mineral line and FE (cus you know he wont be FE-ing anytime soon)
Sadly, you still lose a shit load of SCVS because blue flame is pretty ridiculous and cost effective so this is pretty tricky...
I then usually move out with my tank marine banshee composition. No lie though..its a very solid strat
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iEchoic's strat is basically like SeleCT's strat at MLG DC where he dropped and expanded but for TvT. It just takes knowing where your units are at all times and knowing when you have the ability to be backstabbed. The Protoss figured that build out, and I can't say that I don't think people won't figure this one out.
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sounds like a fun build but i don't think its game breaking. especially if both players do this strat they end up killing each others eco. Its always fun to see both players doing an early drop when close air killing each other eco lines because no defense is at home.
I saw some really nice stalker blocking vs hellions etc, looked really awesome and should work for terrans as well heh.
This build sounds like a good conter against 1/1/1 with an expansion heh. Wonder if we will ever see no orbital neo steel upgrade and 2 bunkers at a base and if hellions come. Whooosh all scvs loaded in laughing. (easy way to have 44 save workers on 2 bases haha which is better then 1 base with orbial x3)
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Just played against this build, its damn annoying. I shouldn't have kept building marines lol. Was able to win with viking dominance and plantetary fortresses with seige tanks to starve him out.
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I was playing around with this build over the past few times I have been online and have found one good weak spot. This build doesn't allow for you to be ready for a cloaked banshee rush. Even with two gas up either you can get a raven first, which would allow you to prevent the banshee rush, but will delay your first medivac, which delays your initial helion drop, or you miss scout and you will have no detection at 7:20. You could save up energy on your CC, but then you will be tight on money/supply. I tried to rearrange things so that I could get out both detection and a medivac in optimal time but found no way to get both out. Just some thoughts.
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I haven't yet ran into this build yet. I want to try my hand against it.
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On February 13 2011 11:23 WhiteBuddha wrote:
I was playing around with this build over the past few times I have been online and have found one good weak spot. This build doesn't allow for you to be ready for a cloaked banshee rush. Even with two gas up either you can get a raven first, which would allow you to prevent the banshee rush, but will delay your first medivac, which delays your initial helion drop, or you miss scout and you will have no detection at 7:20. You could save up energy on your CC, but then you will be tight on money/supply. I tried to rearrange things so that I could get out both detection and a medivac in optimal time but found no way to get both out. Just some thoughts.
This partially highlights why we shouldn't have 2 threads for an identical topic.
For the record, it was stated in the other thread that running SCVs around while getting out a Viking and a Raven allows you to lose a couple SCVs, but not too many. Meanwhile, you have nothing at home to stop a few Blue-Flame hellions killing every single SCV you have.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/i/hellionproof.jpg/)
