EPTDid iEchoic break TvT? - Page 4
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
There are basically 3 ways to play TvT now (in the mid-lategame, openers are a completely different story): Bio (MMM), Tank/Viking and Hellion/Banshee/Viking. Every one of those styles is able to win vs the other, what matters in the end is who plays the best. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Say you're a terran and you're playing against another terran. You build 5 marines and a hellion and you attack the other terran. Then you get cloaked banshees. Pretty goddamn standard shit when you scout a terran who gets his gas, right? You will NOT have a raven up in time to deflect their banshees (even on cross shakuras the timing will result in quite a few dead scv's) and you WILL have to pull (ie, lose) scvs to deal with that first poke because you skip marines. It's happened quite a few times. In one game the other guy had 2 tanks ready from my hellion drop. 2! I'm not staying for long in his mineral line against that! Oh, plus all that other stuff. This build is not the be-all end-all of TvT, but it is a cool build to throw out sometimes. I think I might just fall back on regular 1/1/1 blue flame hellion drops, if that's ok with you (faster raven means I'm a happier man!) | ||
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On February 12 2011 22:16 morimacil wrote: And yeah, reaper openings could spell trouble with this build, but that doesnt really help all that much, since you cant see he is doing this build, and then go back in time to make reapers. You can, however, see that he is doing this build, and then make 2 sensor towers. You can see that he is doing this build, and decide to position your army differently. I dont agree you cant know he's doing the build, there are several indicators. -Fast 2nd gas -Only 2 marines and barracks not producing -Fast 1st and 2nd factory You have to go blind on the first reaper, but that isn't such a big deal and is a common opening anyways. The reaper can scout the two fast factories, that alone is worth it. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 12 2011 16:32 PhiliBiRD wrote: it doesnbt break TvT at all. its rather easy to stop once you see it coming... people over react and post without thinking. siege expand + wall ins + turret and he cant do shit. take a quick 3rd and get a strong thor + marine + tank army and he'll have a hard time taking you out. This is what I was looking for. I haven't ladder yet since I saw this build come out, so I haven't faced it -- but that's what I was thinking. Spread out tanks and turrets around could at least stim some drops from happening. Thor range at least HELPS in air dominance. Only thing for me is... I hope blue flames. lol so I'm going to be blue flame vs blue flame which is my down fall completely. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
So unless you plan to do a blind reaper opening against everything, its not a great idea. Plus, Im not sure that reapers would really do all that well anyway. The first one is up against 2 marines and a hellion, so kinda hard to do all that much damage with it. If you wait too long, and he starts to get multiple hellions, blue flame, or a banshee, then the reapers become quite bad. Plus, you would need like 4 rax with tech labs to keep up with the production off 2 factories, 1 with reactor. And SCVs can be pulled and set to autorepair. At which point a reaper doesnt stand a chance against a hellion plus his SCV. Its the same thing every single time a new build pops up. People always ask themselves: "What unit can I make to counter it?!" Instead, in most cases, the better question is, what timing can I abuse? How can I simcity? How can I position better? Should I expand more, or less, or play more aggressively, or more defensively? Its very rare for the answer to any decent build to be "just build unit X!" | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 12 2011 23:06 iAmJeffReY wrote: This is what I was looking for. I haven't ladder yet since I saw this build come out, so I haven't faced it -- but that's what I was thinking. Spread out tanks and turrets around could at least stim some drops from happening. Thor range at least HELPS in air dominance. Only thing for me is... I hope blue flames. lol so I'm going to be blue flame vs blue flame which is my down fall completely. Assuming its iEchoic's build vs iEchoic's build and you are making just vikings and hellions. Just land all your vikings on his hellions before he can respond so you can kill his ground army and he can't actually do anything about it. Reminds me of Beta with the 3 tank 20 viking armies and the constant landing vikings game. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
For example, against blue flamed hellions, you know what would be really good? Mass marines! But hellions kill marines, right? Well not if the marines are in bunkers! You could slow push your way into his base with bunkers filled with marines, and a couple of turrets  Whats he gonna do? Kill bunkers filled with marines with his hellions and banshees? considering that 1 bunker with 4 marines kills 4 hellions and a banshee... that seems unlikely So really, its often not about what units you make, but more about how you use them. Mass marines could win against mass blue flamed hellions, as long as they are used properly, in bunkers. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
IMO, sensor towers and fast expanding should do the trick. As for army composition, you should go 2port vikings(1 reactor maybe) to control air, and go for tank/thor to shut down hellions. DON'T go bio. Even marauders are completly shut down by it, because hellions deal ridiculous amount of AoE when in mass. The trick is to have more air than your oponent, and to shut down the first few drops/banshees. Funny how 80% of the people in this thread don't understand how the build works. It was designed to deal with most terran openings(only thor rushes are really effective against it, and there are workarounds; maybe very early 4marines on steppes), it was designed to deal with most styles(tank/viking simply won't work, you have to MAAAASSS vikings), and for surely TO SHUT DOWN BIO(hellions lol at marines, banshees lol at marauders; hellions also deal a reasonable damage to marauders thanks to aoe). | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
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Baggiez
United Kingdom24 Posts
Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up. I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL. 3k masters. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On February 12 2011 13:13 mTw|NarutO wrote: If you are up for games, we can play. Should benefit both of us to refine our gameplay. I can't tell if the opponents were lesser skilled or just didn't use your build correctly, but since you are the creator (lets just state it like that) you should be able to execute it very well. So PM me if you are interested :-) this is very interesting, u both should do a Showmatch or something... so the comunity can watch 2 great players clash in their own style :D | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
On February 12 2011 23:50 Baggiez wrote: I regularly 1 rax FE and I got torched by this on Blistering Sands. Worst thing is, my opponent was P player that queued as T just to get a TvT to try this out. I scouted it early, massed marauders and threw down a few turrets. He turned up with his hellions and they got destroyed. I marched to his base for the quick damage but a banshee popped - it got 12 marauder kills. From there he constantly traded his hellions for marines and his banshees killed all my marauders and as I had FE and had no tech, I just gave up. I'm not saying this build is retarded or unskilled or anything of the sort, but it's definitely not a playstyle I want to continue playing against. I wasn't a massive fan of tanks in TvT but with this build so rife on the ladder it feels just like PvP. Whichever player rushes this fastest wins - 1 base FTL. 3k masters. I see what you did there... | ||
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SiN]
United States540 Posts
No, but he made it a lot easier for those of us who play standard. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On February 13 2011 00:10 SiN] wrote: Did he break TvT? No, but he made it a lot easier for those of us who play standard. Lol. I was thinking the same thing. The only time I lost to this hellion/banshee was when I was practicing 1 rax FE. Other than that, never lost to it with good play. They throw hellions/banshees into a brick wall, and then they have nothing left over lol. | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
On February 13 2011 00:14 avilo wrote: Lol. I was thinking the same thing. The only time I lost to this hellion/banshee was when I was practicing 1 rax FE. Other than that, never lost to it with good play. They throw hellions/banshees into a brick wall, and then they have nothing left over lol. Problem is, when you play people that are actually good they don't suicide banshees and medivacs into turrets and things like that. As rational of a thing as that may seem to do in the platinum league. | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
If you effectively defend harass, you will win. | ||
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SiN]
United States540 Posts
On February 13 2011 00:19 Space Invader wrote: Problem is, when you play people that are actually good they don't suicide banshees and medivacs into turrets and things like that. As rational of a thing as that may seem to do in the platinum league. We are both 3500+ masters. I've played vs iEchoic doing this build, and had a very easy time dealing with it. | ||
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