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Played with this build a couple times, couple of things I figured out:
1. The terran using the build relies on banshees against everything the hellions aren't too efficient against- tanks, thors and marauders. Since the terran using the 2fact2port build can't really make banshees and vikings at the same time, if you can challenge the air enough there's really nothing stopping marauders from running the 2fact2port player over.
2. There is a good timing for the 2 rax no gas fast expand build if the terran does not put a bunker up. 1 rax reaper can also expand off this build since reapers are good against marines can bypass the bunker at the ramp, and deny map control because they beat hellions before blue flame.
3. Good sim city on certain maps can greatly reduce the damage this build can cause on most maps(not scrap station). Good supply depot placement can seriously affect hellion mobility.
4. Make turrets, don't rely on marines for anti air.
5. Expanding is only a weakness if you can't defend the expo from banshees and hellions.
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On February 12 2011 13:41 Genome852 wrote:
I'm having a tough time seeing how this would win versus a walling tank+viking player.
He can match your viking count, while having a strong ground force. Of course, blue flame hellions can do ridiculous damage to mineral lines, but wouldn't one or two sieged tanks in the base completely shut it down? Not to mention the stop+F1 trick to spread workers.
The entire point of the build is to gain air control. If you don't then yeah you're going to lose. But the way that the build works you're supposed to have more air production early on so that you can get more vikings first and then keep up air control.
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On February 12 2011 12:34 Ponyo wrote:
now that tons of people will try to copy this build, then its weaknesses will shine out, like a marauder push followed by turrets to stop banshee play and then so on and so forth to correctly counter the build.
2 people tried this on me on the ladder today and I crushed it pretty easy by just getting a viking early turtling a bit once it came. I didn't spot the drop until hellions were in my base but running scvs with tanks and rines to kill the hellions quickly it didn't do enough damage to pay off considering 400 min of otherwise useless hellions and even more for the blue flame upgrade and cloak. If their rush fails it really, really hurts them since they spend all their gas minerals units and upgrades that really, really aren't good in actual combat.
I also haven't seen this before today and had no idea it was on day9 ha.
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I got faced with this a lot, and I found the best way to limit him is to turtle and push out with a 200/200, but you should keep an eye on his expansions and limit him to 2 the max. My main comp was Marauder/Thor/2 or 3 vikings and a Raven. That was my main bulk. As soon as I scouted he was going for that build, I threw down a sensor tower and missile turrets. Block the back of your mineral line using supply depots and go as far as building a second Engy bay to lock of the back of your mineral line.
Sensor towers are best here, you just need at least two to cover your main and natural. Mass up a good army and rush in to crush him, leaving Missile Turrets or a thor to protect the base from Banshee backstabs.
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IMO Marauder/Thor sounds good. Go for your own hellion pre-ig rush and then into marauder/thor with raven support to detect banshees. Use the excess Minerals on a ton of depots and Turrets to block your mining and if your desperate enough, build a lot of CCs to quickly reproduce SCVs as your bound to lose some to a hellion based strategy. I think if you did the regular MMTank viking stuff really well you could overcome this build too, it wouldn't be standard if it wasn't a kind of all-round effective unit composition.
I haven't played in awhile tho so i have yet to face this build.
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Sim city neutralizes blue flame hellion drop (unless they drop IN the mineral line, giving the dropship THAT much longer to be vulnerable to interception). Thors clear out the skies. I don't see the big deal. iEcholic just has brilliant execution and decision making regarding where his units should be at what time. Most players using this build aren't going to be at that level of familiarity.
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You have to tech to thor get 2bases and then get ravens to detect cloaked banshees. You have to use PDD for the ravens to survive vikings. Turrets are needed at both mineral lines at least 2.
I like to open 1rax 1fact armory cc ebay making 5marines before a reactor and make a hellion while you make your armory. Once you get to 2 bases add on factories and a starport go hellion/thor/raven and get cannon upgrade for the BC tech switch. He will be ahead constantly and you are mostly likely going to have to finish it in one good death push with some mech attack upgrades.
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The build will never break TvT because, with all TvT's, its about air superiority (not so much if yo go MM)
This build requires air superiorty and thus tank/viking/raven WILL rape it
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The build is really a hassle to deal with, luckily alot of people have kinda poor controll and will lose too many vital units instead of keeping to a harass early on.
Luckily i'm in the habit of making a viking in most tvt games so I can sometimes stop the hellion drop clear and cut then mop up with a nice amount of stim marines, walling off my mineral lines if i scout the build, but yeah, this is kinda a difficult build to deal with, especially since its a fairly new build, I remember alot of people having trouble with thor/banshee awhile ago, mass marauder all ins could be affective I suppose?
Maybe do a 2rack 2 port build massing Maruaders and vikings, focusing on attack upgrades?
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United States7483 Posts
All of you guys who keep saying "tank viking" are missing the point. The player using this build gets 2 fast starports, and dumps virtually all his gas into air units (just a little for the buildings and blue flame). If you're getting tanks, there's just no way you can beat them in the air. Hellions are the mineral dump with gas being the restrictive resource. This build, when well played, also expands reasonably early, because if their foe pushes out, they lose econ. To beat it, you simply need to outplay the person using the build, there is no build that 'counters' it.
Unless you are also going fast double starport and pumping pure vikings to win early air superiority, you aren't going to get air superiority.
The only real way I can think of to beat this type of build, besides just playing better overall, would be to slow expand with mech and infantry being careful to not be vulnerable, and use sensor towers and careful drop play to punish your opponent expansions, since the response to a slow expand with turtling is to mass expand.
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On February 12 2011 15:25 RiceMuncher wrote:
The build will never break TvT because, with all TvT's, its about air superiority (not so much if yo go MM)
This build requires air superiorty and thus tank/viking/raven WILL rape it hellions use no gas so he gets to devote all his gas to air thus you should not be able to win the air war. so you cant build tanks and win the air war.
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I hope this build doesn't become a match breaking build :/. I'll miss the good ol' Battle of Kursk every TvT. Tank's wars are cool.
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no viking hellion player has beat me yet, and no u cant win the air war. Its actually not possible vs a semi competent terran because you can't make thors. ( marauders > thor )
so its a waste of minerals/gas... also its very hard for the them to figure if your going mass viking or not so they dont know when to switch to only viking
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it doesnbt break TvT at all.
its rather easy to stop once you see it coming... people over react and post without thinking.
siege expand + wall ins + turret and he cant do shit.
take a quick 3rd and get a strong thor + marine + tank army
and he'll have a hard time taking you out.
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You don't have to cheese every game vs something new and scary, just figure out why it's strong, and what parts of it are weak and develop something that you think deals with the weaknesses of this build.
Also, saying he broke TvT is rediculous. Did Bisu "break" ZvP? No, he reinvented it. That being said, I think this is just the flavor of the month, and you'll see players adjusting their standard tank compositions to deal. Not to say that it isn't valid or strong, as it is, but I don't see every pro picking this up and doing nothing but this for months at a time.
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Sure, the banshee player is putting all their gas into air, but banshees don't give air control. Even if they make loads of vikings, you can go even more vikings than they if you aren't building banshees. Am I missing something?
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When I played with this build, it seemed like a coin flip for me i would either win or lose and yes i do believe that the fact that you expand so late is what may be the reason for it. but all in all i do believe that this build has its flaws and can be exposed easily by simply defense and turret placement
I do give him credit he made this build insanely popular and a decent thought process.
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If you guys Naruto and iEchoic are going to play to do some testing on this, could you please stream it?
I think it would be very insightful and fun to watch.
Thanks :D
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I have played this many of times so far and the best thing ive done is go mara/tank/2portreactor vikings and get air upgrades, If they wanna match u on vikings, throw up a 3rd reactor port
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iEchoic didn't break TvT, it's always been this way.
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EPT
