EPTThe 2port2banshee is a lot like playing as zerg(as i Echoic points out) so I play against it the same way I play against zerg. Turtle on two bases and push out with tanks and a ton of vikings(against zerg you push out with tanks + marines + other stuff).
Did iEchoic break TvT? - Page 3
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
The 2port2banshee is a lot like playing as zerg(as i Echoic points out) so I play against it the same way I play against zerg. Turtle on two bases and push out with tanks and a ton of vikings(against zerg you push out with tanks + marines + other stuff). | ||
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IronWolf
South Africa315 Posts
On February 12 2011 13:13 mTw|NarutO wrote: If you are up for games, we can play. Should benefit both of us to refine our gameplay. I can't tell if the opponents were lesser skilled or just didn't use your build correctly, but since you are the creator (lets just state it like that) you should be able to execute it very well. So PM me if you are interested :-) And then please post the replays here  | ||
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
Much better than those tank line wars. | ||
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Teddimijia
United States14 Posts
On February 12 2011 16:47 nodule wrote: Sure, the banshee player is putting all their gas into air, but banshees don't give air control. Even if they make loads of vikings, you can go even more vikings than they if you aren't building banshees. Am I missing something? no your not. the idea is that if ur going the 2factory2port u respond to what ur opponent does. the idea being that if ur opponent goes for mass vikings u go mass vikings as well and b/c u have 2ports can get out the vikings faster. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Teddimijia
United States14 Posts
Also I think that this build is a great build and has a good transition which would be into BCs. Stimed marines also is definitely not the answer, unless you can control them really well. Marines die sooooo quickly to blue flame its sometimes painful to watch. There is no "hard counter" to it. Which is what makes it a great build. This build really illustrates the importance of air in TvT. If you control the skies u control the corse of the war. | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
Now about the concerns around this. I always wall off in TvT because of helions. Yes, it's general acceptance you shouldn't, because of tanks but then again when you have a sieged tank with vision outside your base, supply depots are the least of your worries. Standard tank opening will be hellion proof. As long as you have some map awareness and opponent's actions and composition suggest heli opening, there's absolutely no reason to keep the first siege at entrance, but close to CC. Only one is enough to stop a full blue flame drop as long as you dont panic with SCVs. Best reaction is STOP+F1 spam click, next reaction is let them mine and pull some at a time as if you were splitting marines from banelings. Most common but worst reaction possible is to pull them all away. Now after the heli drop failed, just build a CC inbase, overproduce some SCVS and execute your standard anti-banshee you're fond of (i'd advise against mass marines+ raven, instead go for vikings) dont forget to add a thor later. Overall you don't wanna go bio against this one even if that seems the best response in the heat of the moment. Oh and you'll definitely need to one-base turtle with 2 cc, as he's offensively one-basing. | ||
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0c3LoT
Canada162 Posts
PFs and/or bunkers around the mineral line (with cargo space upgrade) can help mitigate the hellion harass by sending your workers into them when you see the harass. | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
The same reason Hellion/Air is so good against Marine Tank is the same reason Mutalisk Baneling is so good against Marine Tank. I think its just a matter of splicing our marines into large rows instead of clumping them together and focus firing the hellions before they get in range and using turrets to defend tanks. The only thing about this build that is "unbeatable" is the fact you can do a load of damage to their economy. I forsee the direct counter to that would be building bunkers on either side of the mineral patches. Or even building 2 supply on either side and leaving them up. Here is an unorthodox build that I am not sure will beat this build. Doesn't hurt to throw stuff out there I guess =D To get gas first before rax, get an engineering bay. Get the extended sight range on the turrets etc. Save up 400 minerals to build command center and land it in his base, Because none of his units can actually kill it (no high DPS units) you'll be free to make a planetary fortress. Bring a few scvs a long to repair it while the PF is making. Once its finished if you have it in a good position you can snipe certain structures. I'd say land it near a SP or factory. Closer to the main CC the better. After you get the planetary fortress up save up another 400 minerals and build another CC at your expo. Because your supply depots have blocked in your mineral line, it negates the hellion drop. Have constant marine scoutage around your base and with the early engineering bay you can make turrets where you please (not to snipe medivacs but to spot + do damage) Then run in with marines. Because the PF and the Orbital take so much money to do your ground army won't be large. But because the harass of the hellions is negated and the SP is delays and he has a base in his base you can make up the economy quickly. Once your second base is up and running build 2 factories and get double gas. You can start to produce mass thors. If you see banshees shooting your PF (Your brought along scvs can build turrets against banshees) you can immidiatly throw down 2 starports. And pump only vikings. I would suggest to build a raven as well but that depends if he gets cloak or not. Because his build requires that he builds more vikings than you I would use your thors against the vikings, lots of thor shots can kill vikings. Some of you professionals can test this I guess. | ||
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soup.254
Norway1 Post
Long story short I defended the harass with only losing a couple of SCV's which i can afford as I'm already ahead and in the end he lost air control and lost horribly to marauder viking. I believe for this to work he'd have to kill so many workers I'd be dead anyways. So it really wouldn't come down to what the follow up is, but how much damage the drop would do. And if you for some reason do manage to lose air control you can still do something like marauder thor. Basically same principle as a late game TvT transition where the player with air control gets BC's. Sure, he dominates the air, but they're so slow stimmed marauders can just do run by's and snipe expansions etc. I believe the same would be true for this, although I haven't tested it yet. If you don't wait for his banshee numbers to grow too big (as he obviously has to fight you for air control so he's making vikings) you can freely add rauders and roll over him. Again, if you snipe his expo and you're mining double his gas again, you should be able to catch up in air control pretty easily, imho! Still a cool build tho! Will test it out some time | ||
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joheinous
Iceland522 Posts
 are you sure it's not just positioning/timing mistakes from the replays your talking about? | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
1)sim city - it is always a danger that hellions can come in your mineral line in any TvT. With this build it is a given. 2)Thor opening - very strong against Banshees 3)Build Hellions of your own to haras. 4)Thor Tank Hellion +sometimes Ghost if to many Ravens are out. A lot of turrets around the base. | ||
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Sagelol
Turkey19 Posts
It is a very good build well written and well thought out and it is deadly against people who do not scan or scout at ~6 min mark. It counters almost all of the agressive terran opponents out there as well(tank-viking early contain etc). But since it expands too late and is dependent on dealing eco damage early on, it is kinda risky imo. If you can incorporate an expand after the initial helion drop or maybe turn into a 1 rax expand with this follow-up(quite hard), it should be golden. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
Or it was because I fucked up. For example, in one game I got trashed by thors and I hardly had any BC's out to deal with it. But usually it's because they fuck up. They build way too many tanks or marauders and don't get thors. The trick to fighting this build is to identify it immeadiately and focus on getting tons and tons of vikings and thors out, with plenty of turrets for drops and marines to just roudn out the minerals. Try and secure 3 bases, max out with good upgrades and just trash him in fights. Viking/thor/marine is, i would believe, the strongest counter, but an awful lot of it just comes down to good manouvres from both players. | ||
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On February 12 2011 20:23 joheinous wrote: It seems that tank+viking would exactly counter this build are you sure it's not just positioning/timing mistakes from the replays your talking about?Marauder+viking is more likely, it's cheaper and you dont need tanks to kill hellions. The build hinges on two things: Air superiority and economic damage with blue flame hellions. Its impossible for this build to gain air superiority if it is actively contested, this build sinks minerals/gas into banshee's, which means you will always have less vikings than the opponent if he's going vikings-only. If that is the case, the build can still work if the hellions do enough economic damage. If you can somehow stop that from happening (simcity) or do equal economic damage of your own, you should be ahead. Also, i think due to the low marine count (and no marauders) at the start of this build, there's a decent window of opportunity for reapers to come in and do economic damage. You can see an example of this in the first pokebunny replay in the main thread, although there's only one reaper it does demonstrate that at that point in time there are only 2 marines to deal with it. If it was micro'd properly and backed up with a second/third reaper, there's really not much you can do about it. Hellions get owned by reapers, especially without blue flame. So, i'd love to see a 2-3 reaper opening against this build. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Thors: I dont think rushing for a thor, and then rushing it to the opponent's base is a great idea, since then you will lose all your SCVs. But building up some thors, and then later attacking with them can be great. like 4-5 thors, banshee are ok, but not amazing against them, and have to be magic boxed. And hellions are straight up bad, each thor can take down 9 hellions Another option is just marauders, quite a lot of them. Sure enough, eventually the marauders will all die to banshees. But if you look at for example the first push that happens on the d9 daily. 15 marines, 2 banshees and 4 tanks. Doesnt do much damage, and the banshee and the marines die almost instantly. But if instead, that attack had been 15 stimmed marauders, that could have done a ton more damage, and it wouldnt really have been any easier to kill. Positioning: the idea is really for the hellions to instakill the marines, and then for the banshees to clean upagainst the tanks, thors, marauders, and so on. If you always keep your marines at the back, its going to be much harder for the hellions to do that. Looking again at that first battle on the day9 showcast of the build, the marines were leading the way, clumped up, got fried, and the tanks were behind. I imagine that if that army had been 15 marines, 5 tanks, and siege, instead of the banshees, and for example 3 tanks sieging up below the ramp, 2 tanks moving up the ramp to grant vision, and then sieging up top, and then leapfrogging the back tanks, keping the marines safely betweeen/behind the tanks, and spread out, that would have been much much harder to deal with. If the hellions cant easily fry the marines, then the banshees also cant easily engage the tanks to clean up, and thus good micro should work. By focusing on keeping the marines to the back, and focusing the hellions before any air units such as the banshee, good micro should help a ton. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
for sure I'll have more vikings since no constraint on gas in banshees And for marauders I'm sure they pwn helions And it should be easy to get to I believe. With that being said I do like the addition of banshees and helions to existing terran army. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
You can, however, see that he is doing this build, and then make 2 sensor towers. You can see that he is doing this build, and decide to position your army differently. Yet another possibility could be to take an expo as soon as you scout the build, and throw down 8 turrets and 2 sensor towers. Whats he going to do about it really? Not like he can decide to just friggin kill you with hellions. Best he can do is probably just expand himself too at this point. So then you have a headstart on your expo | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
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