|
On February 17 2011 00:46 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +
I do believe this is false. Double expanding as Terran in that situation is certainly viable. The comparison with Z is correct since a Command Center is actually cheaper then a hatch:
CC= 400 mn (+10 supply so you save 100 on a depot)
Hatch= 300 mn +50 from drone (+2 supply)
This sort of logic is arguing long run vs. short run, and it doesn't really apply here. A CC is 400 minerals right now for a return later, a hatchery is 300 now for a return later. You already made the drone, that's a sunk cost. By this logic, a zerg building is absurdly expensive beyond belief because the drone could be mining instead this whole time. The main problem with a terran double expand is how long it takes to saturate it. Yes, you 'can' do it, but it's almost always a better idea to expand once now, and while saturating it to do some tech and build infrastructure, then expand again. The whole supply thing is also a long run vs. short run thing. What matters is opportunity cost, and 400 minerals NOW for a large return MUCH later (because of how long it takes to saturate) is a big opportunity cost this early on.
However, if you have map control, you can make riskier expands such as the gold in metal or the gold in Xel Naga instead of your natural.
|
United States7483 Posts
However, if you have map control, you can make riskier expands such as the gold in metal or the gold in Xel Naga instead of your natural.
This is true, you could do that (those pesky rocks might have something to say about it on Xel'naga though).
|
i dont understand the ops post. maybe im missing something, but the gas consumtion of 1 banshee, and 1 helion is the same as 1 viking and 1 marauder. so he isnt "wasting 25 a pop" and then he says the banshees kill his marauders before the vikings can kill the banshees. i really, really dont believe that would happen.
if you watch the first replay on the day9 daily he only beats pokebunny because he cut siege tech for an extra tank. if he had had siege and sat back with his tanks, then base traded he would of won easily.
|
The hard counter to this build is thors. I an currerntly enjoying the way tvt seems to be shaping up.
|
On February 16 2011 03:58 Kyandid wrote:
I've played against this a few times with my typical marine/tank/viking bullshit and won some and lost some.
People are looking at this as an instant-freewin-recipe for TvT. It's not. It's just a more aggressive style of play. If you spot this sort of bullshit going down, be prepared to protect your economy and try to wrestle air superiority from him instead of ground, and the better player will win.
This is right. The build is not superior. I was hit with this build all day today. At first I don't know anything because I don't watch Day9. But I gradually can counter it using simple stuff. Of course the success rate is ~50%, but aren't all TvT strat like that?
One of the major flaw of this build is it relies on the bunker to hold off people, and star port unit to go out. A simple push with 7,8 marines, 1 tank, 1 viking is enough to roll this strat since viking can pretty much run around your base, and tank range 7 can outrange marines in the bunker with viking as spotter for high ground.
|
It's funny because hellions are almost broken... banshees are almost broken... put them together and you get an even more almost broken combination. Banshees probably should cost 150 gas to slow them down off of one base.
|
On February 17 2011 04:14 RemrafGrez wrote:
It's funny because hellions are almost broken... banshees are almost broken... put them together and you get an even more almost broken combination. Banshees probably should cost 150 gas to slow them down off of one base.
You wanna break all the Terran match ups too?
|
ive countered this build pretty easily- im in plat so players in my league are not as polished obviously- but this is what works for me. I like the build and try to do it but its just difficult to execute and sustain.
To counter I build hella marines and tanks - build an ebay and get 1/1 and throw up a turrent and then expand. If you can make it to that point its pretty easy to win.
I find that building an extra rax early before my gas, helps a lot. the extra marines are a great defense, have a bunker at ur entrance and a couple marines stationed around ur mineral line and you can defend easily. When you can afford it, get up another factory and a port or two and pump out tanks and vikings and LOTS of barracks which render his build pretty much useless.
But as the build is so difficult to execute well, its a lot easier to counter for lower leagues.
|
I agree abt this build's easiness to beat when executed poorly.
But as long as you make more vikings than the guy doing this build, and tanks positioned in ur mineral line, you can crush it
|
United States7483 Posts
On February 21 2011 14:47 dbkim92 wrote:
I agree abt this build's easiness to beat when executed poorly.
But as long as you make more vikings than the guy doing this build, and tanks positioned in ur mineral line, you can crush it
So what you're saying is, if the guy doing this build is doing it completely wrong, you can beat him easily. If he's doing it right, making more vikings than he is and getting tanks at the same time is impossible, literally impossible. You're spending gas on tanks and vikings, he's spending it only on vikings until he has more vikings than you and kills your air army. You can't win that way if he plays it right. You can beat this with tank/viking with very careful turret positioning and marine support, while tanks keep hellions off your marines. You can't beat it with tank/viking by crushing his air force with more vikings than he has.
Regardless, iEchoic never claimed this build was better than the other TvT builds, he simply said it's a completely viable alternative that has an excellent chance of winning when played well, and that he finds it more fun than tank/viking chess battles.
|
I've found this effective against standard comp against me. However, after a couple of times I just mass vikings and Marauders, you dont even need medivacs as long as your viking count is higher, and you will completely run over him. Hellions dont do any damage marauders even on mass.
|
On February 21 2011 14:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 14:47 dbkim92 wrote:
I agree abt this build's easiness to beat when executed poorly.
But as long as you make more vikings than the guy doing this build, and tanks positioned in ur mineral line, you can crush it So what you're saying is, if the guy doing this build is doing it completely wrong, you can beat him easily. If he's doing it right, making more vikings than he is and getting tanks at the same time is impossible, literally impossible. You're spending gas on tanks and vikings, he's spending it only on vikings until he has more vikings than you and kills your air army. You can't win that way if he plays it right. You can beat this with tank/viking with very careful turret positioning and marine support, while tanks keep hellions off your marines. You can't beat it with tank/viking by crushing his air force with more vikings than he has. Regardless, iEchoic never claimed this build was better than the other TvT builds, he simply said it's a completely viable alternative that has an excellent chance of winning when played well, and that he finds it more fun than tank/viking chess battles.
U dont simultaneously produce tanks and vikings, but focus on vikings first. Only a couple at first are necessary to deter helions. Also, banshees are almost as taxing on gas as tanks are.
And this is by no means a bad build. I thought the OP was asking for ways to deal with it
|
On February 17 2011 01:06 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +
However, if you have map control, you can make riskier expands such as the gold in metal or the gold in Xel Naga instead of your natural.
This is true, you could do that (those pesky rocks might have something to say about it on Xel'naga though).
it's not like your marines and hellions have anything better to do while your opponent is turtling lol
|
I dont think it breaks tvt, but its certainly THE build right now. Its all over the place. Heck, I've lost a couple games due to people blindly going with a marauder timing push anticipating this build. It hits after factories are up but before banshees.
People need to realize this needs to be executed perfectly to work. One game I was late with my starports, and I lost to a marine tank timing push because my banshees weren't there in time. If I had executed correctly I would of had banshees popping up within seconds of the push arriving.
In addition, you need to make sure you do damage with your hellions. This build's main weakness imo is how late it expands, so you need to compensate by dealing massive scv damage.
In dealing with this build; scouting is huge. 95% of the time if you suspect this build, expect blue flame hellions to be paying your mineral line a visit. So basically if you scout and see hellions, immediately throw a bunker up in your mineral line, and put marines in it. If you went a bio opening make sure your marauders got concussive shell. The bunker wont prevent all of your scvs from dying, but it will definitely save a lot of them. Just make sure to micro around it, staying away from the hellions. If you have a couple marauders stick them in the mineral line; they dont need a bunker because hellions dont do anything to them. Place any additional buildings your making in places blocking entry paths into your mineral line. This is pretty much the best you can do. Expect some scvs to still die though. Its that effective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
