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Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
November 05 2011 18:26 GMT
#8921
On November 06 2011 02:44 SolidSPUD wrote:
Whats the most efficient way of stopping creep spread early on as Protoss? Feels like any time I move out its already at my door. I'm thinking something along the lines of where terran use a small pack of hellions.


Aside from maybe a Void Ray I cant really think of anything effective at completely stopping creep spread beyond attacking. Running out with 3 or 4 stalkers once you have blink can work if you have an escape route. Otherwise, I wouldnt worry about creep till later on when zerg cant just surround you.
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 20:57:31
November 05 2011 20:53 GMT
#8922
On November 06 2011 03:22 Sporadic44 wrote:
Hey your welcome lyerbeth, i'm always happy to help out my fellow zerg players. Especially in ZvZ because it can be a very confusing matchup to understand. I'll offer some advice on the subjects you mentioned above;
+ Show Spoiler +

As for when I choose to go gas/pool or pool/gas,
+ Show Spoiler +

I cant really give a surefire conditional for this "If N do X OR If Y do Z" type of thing, but i'll offer some points to think about when considering pool and gas. One thing to consider is the size of the map, and what your Z opponent typically does there. Shakuras is a big map with a relatively secure natural, so alot of zerg either fast expand right away or speedling expand, with lots of drones. So with a 14 pool you should be safe from pretty much anything, due to the distance between you and your opponent. Furthermore, when your opponent FE's you'll always have ling speed before him, regardless of pool or gas first. Also, you get your queen out slightly faster. This is miniscule but having slightly quicker injects than your opponent can add up in ling or drone counts.

Put simply: gas/pool ling speed is quicker, a few extra moments to be aggressive off the bat, scout and pick off a drone or two etc. Pool/gas, queen pops a bit faster, slightly better against 6-10 pools, more larva to either drone or buildup lings at home.

To answer the question regarding when you scout Hatch First from your opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +

If I may elaborate on my previous post, I dont like hatch-first unless its close by air as you'll recall. And I'll explain why now. If I saw a hatch first with my first set of lings I'll run them immediately into his main, my lings usually get there as his are popping. From there I can see if he's getting gas, how much gas he's gotten, if there's a roach warren etc. You can float around his base for a bit dodging queens and his lings, so you should be able to prepare for virtually anything assuming you deduce correctly. But typically, you'll see one of three things right? He stops getting gas at 100(he's gonna rely on slings), he'll continue getting gas after speed(banelings are probable, but come much slower than speed first build blings), or he's getting roaches immediately. With this you also see a few spines go up at times.
Most of the time a hatch first is defensive posturing, they want to make drones with their setup as their tech is overall slower. (sidenote:if they stop getting gas all together you should drop a bling nest as they may choose to allin) With these assumptions lets take stock of the situation as your first 4-6 scouting lings run around. We have our expansion on the way, speeds almost done, we have a queen and injects rolling. He has slow slings, 2 hatches and speeds just started, or a roach warren is put down and he has virtually no scouting of our main and tech(he shouldnt at this point, our lings were out first). What does it mean? Our opponent cant really attack, so he wants to make drones. We have the option to put a little bit of pressure on because a counter attack is unlikely.

SO, generally its a good idea to make 6-10 more lings to join up with your inital lings(they shouldnt die when scouting). The goal is to have them pop from their eggs around the time speed finishes, as that allows a few more drones first and they skyrocket in effectiveness once speeds done. From there gather up your lings and poke their natural. If they played too greedy, you win outright with a little bit of micro. Isolate the queens, continue macroing, scout tech and snag a few drones. Thats obviously best case, other times you'll run up the ramp say on shakuras, and see 2 spines, and roaches blocking the ramp. He's defended. In this scenario, you're still in a decent spot. Roach openings in zvz IMO are not the way to do it. There are ways to make them work, but roaches are just too static early game. Roaches combined with spines is even more cumbersome. Investing in early roaches and spines after a FE leaves our opponent with no zerg speed, lower drone count, and less sensible options. So in this case try and skirt around the edges with your lings, try and get a drone if you can, or lure the queen away from the ramp. Other than that you dont really want to commit with your lings. Continuing droning. I like to drop one or two spines and really lay on the D key when I see roaches. You should get your own roach warren eventually, or mutas, whatever you like. Either way, the goal is that you have map control, and full intel on your opponents natural, you want to make more drones than him because you can safely. If he's morphing blings in, or has a few ready you can try and micro against him to waste banes, get a drone or two, and distract him attacking you. And if he's making tons of slings, make sure you have a bling nest, dont overcommit, and make a spine or two at home.

I've been winded at that this point. So to summarize: Yes attack with some slings if your opponent FE's. He has to commit units instead of drones, with speed you can be more cost efficent, getting more out of less units than your opponent. Also if you're attacking your opponent, He's not attacking you. So you can catch up in drone count easily, while getting a nice scout in the process.

Leaving one in gas Vs none
+ Show Spoiler +
The way I play I like to sneak more drones in than most spling expanding zergs anyway. So generally I wont have enough larva to utilize all my minerals on just zerglings anyway. Because of this, I find it better to leave one drone on gas in case I need that quick bling nest. However, if I know my opponent is going roaches, taking all three off gas is a fine idea. You can use a couple spines to be safe(assuming you're sure its not a roach ling allin).


That about covers your questions regarding the replays. About the build you described:
+ Show Spoiler +
From what I gather if I read write, you go 14 gas 14 pool, 4 lings, expansion, spine, then speed, then queen. This sounds very inefficient and wonky. There's no point in going 14 gas if you plan to do so much before grabbing ling speed. The goal of the speedling expand is to posture for map control, while having an economic mindset, and harassing your opponent Z to keep him honest. If you get a blind spine, you may not need that spine for another 3-5 minutes for whatever reason(opponent plays passive). All of a sudden you're out the 150 minerals and additional mining time. Never drop a spinecrawler that early unless you're positive its necessary. Furthermore, with 14 gas you should be able to buffer any sort of attack with your speed lings because you have the option of map control.

If you mimic what I do in the replays, you will be able to respond to an early bling attack efficiently.Get that early speed, get a ling in his base, and sneak in drones when you know you can.

After thought, food for thought:
ZvZ can be boiled down to, "I want to make drones whenever I want, I want to stop you from making drones whenever you want." That is to say, The Zerg who decides when the fights happen is in a comfortable spot. If you get the proper read on your opponent early, you should be able to exploit his weaknesses to gain incremental advantages, all while staying safe yourself. Keep practicing, and lastly, pick a particular pro, maybe someone with a replay pack out or something, and watch their ZvZs. Its good to watch any ZvZ obviously, but if you watch any pro player's MU ZvX you start to understand their logic behind decisions and the function of all the facets of their play. I watched like 15 or so of nerchios ZvZ like 2 months ago. I stole a lot of my strategy from him honestly. Get into opponents base when speed finishes, speedling expands instead of hatch first, and not going straight into roach(this is good in certain situations but usually just slings or blings is better).


That's all I have for now, I apologize in advance for any disorganized thoughts or wordy sentences just trying to be thorough. If you have more questions dont hesitate.


That covered everything I was having trouble with and more. Thank you once again, I really appreciate your help.
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
Vod.kaholic
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1052 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 21:09:55
November 05 2011 21:06 GMT
#8923
On November 06 2011 02:44 SolidSPUD wrote:
Whats the most efficient way of stopping creep spread early on as Protoss? Feels like any time I move out its already at my door. I'm thinking something along the lines of where terran use a small pack of hellions.


Like sporadic mentioned, there's a few options:

1) Voidray + observer combo if you know he doesn't have Infestors or large numbers of Hydras/Muta/Corruptors out

2) Small group of stalkers or blink stalkers + Observer. Use the non-blink stalkers early if you know he delayed his gas, which leads to later ling speed and later roach speed so you still have a chance to maneuver. Creep tumors have 50 life and are armored, so you never really need to send more than 2 stalkers, because those will 2-shot it.

3) Doing a small push though about 1 wave of creep tumors with your army. Your only goal with this is to kill creep without putting your army in a dangerous position where it can't retreat. This also has the side effect of scaring the zerg and making him build more units, which can be both a good and a bad thing. It's good because he's not droning, but it also puts your army at risk if you hang out too long and get overwhelmed when he runs out with his zerglings.

The timing for option 1 is really before Mutas or Infestors, because those are the only things that can catch the void ray if you're not worried about losing your obs as well. You can still run from hydras and corruptors. In any case if he brings an overseer along you'll probably lose the obs.
The timing for 2 is before ling or roach speed, and the timing for 3 is before the zerg is done droning if he's playing passively. Not recommended if he's already pumped out a lot of units and wants to be aggressive.
._. \: |: /: .-. :\ :| :/ ._. They see me rolling...
Melty Butter
Profile Joined March 2011
Ireland52 Posts
November 05 2011 21:07 GMT
#8924
The first time you queue up for a ladder game in a day, you get a load of "downloading item" things. I've been wondering, what are those items?
Ass
kedarking
Profile Joined August 2011
Netherlands98 Posts
November 05 2011 23:04 GMT
#8925
On November 06 2011 06:07 Melty Butter wrote:
The first time you queue up for a ladder game in a day, you get a load of "downloading item" things. I've been wondering, what are those items?


The maps I believe.
"There's nothing more awesome, than being proud of the things you love." The most inspirational man I've ever known, also knon as Day[J]
nicke10
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden114 Posts
November 06 2011 05:06 GMT
#8926
How does one actually get any information at what the P is doing as a Zerg when the P is going FFE. I can't really see if he's going 6 gate, stargate play or just standard based on ling scouting. I see pros only use ling scout and not overlord sacc and I'm just curious how they do it.
"It's not that I'm dumb, I'm just Neural Parasited by a retarded Infestor." - Sean "Day[9]" Plott
cive
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada370 Posts
November 06 2011 05:46 GMT
#8927
What are the six most efficient patches of minerals at the beginning of the game?

When do I take the 2nd gas for 3 gate expand vs zerg?
Play Terran
vTnTemujin
Profile Joined November 2011
United States32 Posts
November 06 2011 07:25 GMT
#8928
I am currently in Silver with a 50-50 win-loss rating but lately it seems I get cheesed match after match and it starts making me lose my focus. Now I am unsure of what to build and when to attack for fear of being cheesed and it becomes very frustrating.

What do you do when you are on a losing streak?
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
November 06 2011 07:52 GMT
#8929
On November 06 2011 16:25 vTnTemujin wrote:
I am currently in Silver with a 50-50 win-loss rating but lately it seems I get cheesed match after match and it starts making me lose my focus. Now I am unsure of what to build and when to attack for fear of being cheesed and it becomes very frustrating.

What do you do when you are on a losing streak?


Quit. Walk away, do some push ups to get rid of some pent up rage energy. If you're in silver, you could be losing to cheese because it's simply better than your play. It's fair to say that scouting cheese is only half the fight. Try to approach the game as humbly as you can, as a student, and say look I got cheesed, and I'm glad I did because now I can find out how to defend it given my build. Getting cheesed is a great tool to sharpen your build, and reveal problems in your game play. So you should analyze the cheese, figure out when it hits, how you can scout for it, and how to defend it. The idea is that you make as few changes to your current play as possible while still allowing you to scout and prep for cheese. gl.
phiinix
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1169 Posts
November 06 2011 07:59 GMT
#8930
On November 06 2011 14:46 cive wrote:
What are the six most efficient patches of minerals at the beginning of the game?

When do I take the 2nd gas for 3 gate expand vs zerg?


It really depends map by map. But you should be able to just look at the patchs and notice that some are farther than others. this helps too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211953

As for gas timing, I'm a terran player but if you're doing the standard sentry style expand you get the second gas on 18 food (after core)
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
November 06 2011 08:22 GMT
#8931
Does concussive shells slow effect stop stalkers from blinking? I looked in Liquidpedia but could not find any answer to this.
zZygote
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada898 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 08:25:58
November 06 2011 08:24 GMT
#8932
On November 06 2011 17:22 MockHamill wrote:
Does concussive shells slow effect stop stalkers from blinking? I looked in Liquidpedia but could not find any answer to this.


Pretty sure they do not disable the stalker to blink. AFAIK, fungal is the only skill that stops stalkers from blinking.

Now for my own question:

What is the most effective way to check if a base is fully saturated? (6 on gas 3 each) and 24 droned on minerals. Something also relevant, lets say im on 2 base, how many drones do I transfer to my 3rd hatch? How many do I transfer from my main to my nat, from my nat to my 3rd? To equally distribute 72 drones.
vinsky
Profile Joined June 2011
Poland48 Posts
November 06 2011 13:14 GMT
#8933
On November 06 2011 17:22 MockHamill wrote:
Does concussive shells slow effect stop stalkers from blinking? I looked in Liquidpedia but could not find any answer to this.

nah, they dont. they just make stalkers ( or anyting else) slower, they doesnt effect skills.
Nerchio - MVP - Mana - MKP | Flash
RosaParksStoleMySeat
Profile Joined December 2009
Japan926 Posts
November 06 2011 14:47 GMT
#8934
I don't know if this question has been asked, but it's just a curiosity thing.

What happens if you kill both sides of a Nydus Worm with units inside? Do the units inside just disappear into the abyss?
MR KING
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden145 Posts
November 06 2011 14:52 GMT
#8935
On November 06 2011 23:47 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:
I don't know if this question has been asked, but it's just a curiosity thing.

What happens if you kill both sides of a Nydus Worm with units inside? Do the units inside just disappear into the abyss?


Yeah they all disappear, I speak of experience
Iyerbeth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England2410 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 16:46:25
November 06 2011 15:52 GMT
#8936
On November 06 2011 17:24 zZygote wrote:
Now for my own question:

What is the most effective way to check if a base is fully saturated? (6 on gas 3 each) and 24 droned on minerals. Something also relevant, lets say im on 2 base, how many drones do I transfer to my 3rd hatch? How many do I transfer from my main to my nat, from my nat to my 3rd? To equally distribute 72 drones.


There're a couple of ways to check saturation, so I'll first put the one I use and then the one's I've heard other people use.

My prefered method is to simple create a box over the workers at a base (or control click a drone on minerals as per your preference) and then quickly look at the third line of units at the bottom. If there are 4 workers on the 3rd line, which is half the line, then your saturation is perfect. That is to say that will show 16 workers gathering minerals, and 2 on each gas, with the assumption of a final 1 not selected as it'll be inside the gas. Therefore a quick glance showing 4 workers on the third line is perfect saturation and you can adjust as necessary.

Another method I've heard people use, especially for an oversaturated base, is to select all the workers at a base again and set them to a control group you don't use (you can even make a specific control group hotkey if you like for ease of reaching) and just set all the workers of a base to that group. If you have your control group tabs displaying you will see something like control group 0 now has 37 workers on it and you now know you need to transfer 17 of them to get back to 2 lines + 4 with 2 inside gas.

The final way I've heard people discuss is to just look for two on each mineral patch and if you see a mineral patch without two build more, and if you see multiple workers jumping around then transfer some. It's far less precise but probably faster.

As to transfering to a new 3rd, I think it's dependant on circumstances. If it's a gold base you may want to saturate it immediately in case you end up losing it down the road for instance. Additionally if your third base has been delayed for whatever reason it may be worth transfering the majority from your main for more efficient mining. I guess ideally you want to transfer 8 from your main and natural (assuming equal mining up to that point) so you end up with 14 at each base and 16 at the new base with 2 Drones for Extractors and then produce 8 more at each base but i can't say how often you'll be in a position that it'll work out that perfectly.

The problem with trying to set it in stone is you need to decide if you want to mineral drop now as you transfer or a little at a time as new workers travel over as they're made. You also want your safe bases to remain mining as long as possible so it may be worth transfering more to rriskier bases to quickly gain back the investment so I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't know that there's any answer that covers every situation, beyond consider the situation. Even if you choose to transfer nothing, 2 bases with injects plus your new third will very quickly fill up a new base anyway.

-----

Also as a complete aside if you see this Sporadic, I've gone back to winning every ZvZ since your help at least in the past 24 hours - as opposed to the maybe 10% I was getting before! Thanks again...again, lol.
♥ Liquid`Sheth ♥ Liquid`TLO ♥
sdrawkcab_
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 16:10:58
November 06 2011 16:10 GMT
#8937
Hi!

Could someone who knows what average unspent resources actually means explain it to me? I have too much unspent resources, but dunno how what that number really tells me.
coriamon
Profile Joined August 2011
244 Posts
November 06 2011 16:31 GMT
#8938
How do you deal with a spanishiwa opening player who goes directly for mutas (then double expands while doing that)? I haven't lost when I play zerg like this (except with bad macro), but I know that (as a random player) I won't be able to deal with it when I play protoss.
envisioN .
Profile Joined February 2011
United States552 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 16:45:56
November 06 2011 16:43 GMT
#8939
On November 07 2011 01:10 sdrawkcab_ wrote:
Hi!

Could someone who knows what average unspent resources actually means explain it to me? I have too much unspent resources, but dunno how what that number really tells me.

The game records the amount of resources you have in the bank at regular intervals, then when the game ends, it adds all of those numbers and divides by the number of times it recorded your resources. It tells you whether you are macroing well throughout the course of the game and spending all of your money.

On November 07 2011 01:31 coriamon wrote:
How do you deal with a spanishiwa opening player who goes directly for mutas (then double expands while doing that)? I haven't lost when I play zerg like this (except with bad macro), but I know that (as a random player) I won't be able to deal with it when I play protoss.

Getting blink stalkers off of 2 base should counter this style of play pretty well. The spanishiwa style opening is counting on you attacking at their front door, into all of their spine crawlers. If you get blink stalkers and vision of the high ground (Obs, Hallucinated Pheonix) then you can blink into his main and attack his valuable tech structures, while being safe from Mutas. The same goes with harrassing his expos. Use your mobility to force him to build a lot of lings or a lot of spine crawlers at all of his expansions.
"Good works do not make a good man, but a good man does good works" -Martin Luther ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
suirad
Profile Joined November 2010
10 Posts
November 06 2011 16:57 GMT
#8940
If you have a turret on low ground and a supply depot on high ground, but close to it, do you get detection around the depot?
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