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On November 05 2011 01:58 Hero1 wrote:
I was just wondering about nestea's overlord flying path in the grand final vs MVP. You can see it here: <video> at 24:28. Does he only do this to look for a hidden scout in the fog or does this serve another purpose like looking for proxies or the direction a potential scout comes from?
I think it's for proxies, because MVP once proxy double raxxed him in that spot. The first overlord would have flown over it already so he sent the second one there.
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When you ping the minimap, can your opponents see it? I was just in a 4v4 and my ally had some stalkers that could see a Nexus that had just started. I pinged the minimap, and the player immediately cancelled it. Going back to the replay, I saw that he could not see the stalkers, and he wasn't even looking at that part of the map. When I pinged, that's when he moved over and immediately cancelled. Here is a link to the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/download/id/15391. It happens at 19:08 in the bottom right.
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On November 05 2011 10:44 frogjg2003 wrote:When you ping the minimap, can your opponents see it? I was just in a 4v4 and my ally had some stalkers that could see a Nexus that had just started. I pinged the minimap, and the player immediately cancelled it. Going back to the replay, I saw that he could not see the stalkers, and he wasn't even looking at that part of the map. When I pinged, that's when he moved over and immediately cancelled. Here is a link to the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/download/id/15391. It happens at 19:08 in the bottom right.
Only allies can see pings right? That seems really curious though...
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Whats a build for zerg that is nice and safe for all three matchups, similar to how 3-Gate Robo is a nice build to learn as Protoss?
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On November 05 2011 13:04 Monsyphon wrote:
Whats a build for zerg that is nice and safe for all three matchups, similar to how 3-Gate Robo is a nice build to learn as Protoss?
As Zerg is a very reactionary race, there aren't really any set build orders for zerg. I would say that going 15 Hatch 15 Pool against Terran and 14 Pool 15/16 Hatch vs Protoss are a very standard way to play. ZvZ is an odd match up, but going 14 Pool then reacting to what your opponent did is a safe bet.
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Do the F keys work as location hotkeys as they do in BW?
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On November 05 2011 14:04 Austro wrote:
Do the F keys work as location hotkeys as they do in BW?
yup. Although f1 may be something different by default. You change everything any way you want and check the defaults in the hotkey menu.
Ive actually heard of people changing f1,f2,f3 to be keyed to like 8,9,0 for normal hotkeys so you can have 2 rows with easier access.
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Hey, I'm a Terran player who is looking to improve my macro, and first thing for that (or so I've heard) is to focus on one build.
my problem is that i feel like liquid-wiki is not updated enough, or at least, couldn't find there some solid bio openings, especially against P.
so right now I've got to options, and i would very appreciate some help.
1) find somewhere else a proper build order for T in their match ups.
2) look for a good Pro replay for that.
If someone know a site with confirmed build order I would very much liked to know about it too. alas if someone know a good site to find top pro replays (so i can see the "Prefect" execution for the current build) it would help me too.
I am already familiar with sc2replays.com, but i find it hard to sort the matches there, as categories are up to master league, which is way over me, but still, I'm looking to imitated those pros around there.
Thanks in advance.
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On November 05 2011 19:53 Gefen wrote:
Hey, I'm a Terran player who is looking to improve my macro, and first thing for that (or so I've heard) is to focus on one build.
my problem is that i feel like liquid-wiki is not updated enough, or at least, couldn't find there some solid bio openings, especially against P.
so right now I've got to options, and i would very appreciate some help.
1) find somewhere else a proper build order for T in their match ups.
2) look for a good Pro replay for that.
If someone know a site with confirmed build order I would very much liked to know about it too. alas if someone know a good site to find top pro replays (so i can see the "Prefect" execution for the current build) it would help me too.
I am already familiar with sc2replays.com, but i find it hard to sort the matches there, as categories are up to master league, which is way over me, but still, I'm looking to imitated those pros around there.
Thanks in advance.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Tech_Opening
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3Rax_Stim
These are, in my opinion, the most common and strongest TvP bio openings, unfortunately there are no replays linked but most of them come with at least vods. I might take some time to poke around and look for canonical replays to use for the articles that are reasonably up to date.
As for the builds themselves I'd recommend the 2 Rax Tech Opening with concussive as the upgrade you use. 1 Rax FE requires some proper judgement in it's use and 3Rax Stim isn't really an opening as it's the maximum you can support on one-base and leaves very little room for a command center, but it's a useful build to know on the opposite end of the spectrum to the 1 Rax expand.
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How should i scout after my initial worker has been killed off?
I'm in the gold league and right now I'm sending a worker every few minutes to see what my opponent is doing, is there a more efficient way to find out what kind of build/playstyle my opponent is going? Or is sacrificing workers like that okay?
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On November 05 2011 21:15 ZzZBored wrote:
How should i scout after my initial worker has been killed off?
I'm in the gold league and right now I'm sending a worker every few minutes to see what my opponent is doing, is there a more efficient way to find out what kind of build/playstyle my opponent is going? Or is sacrificing workers like that okay?
Generally no, that's not the most elegant solution, a worker scout is usually followed up with a pressure or other fast unit that can gather additional information and run away, which can then bridge the game to tech which lets you see what they're doing.
So for protoss in PvT for example your initial scout might see no gas, which means no marauder slow opening a window where a stalker can do information gathering which lets you delay your robotics bay and observer.
For zerg in TvZ your initial scout gets killed off just as your speed zerg lings can begin gathering information which along with sacrificial overlords bridge the gap before an overseer, speed overlord or even mutalisk harass can gather information.
For terran in TvP the scout gets killed off and follow-up marauder pressure can bridge the gap before a scan or drop, in TvZ hellions are a good bet, and in TvT banshees also have the desired effect.
Ultimately it comes down to the fact that there's never one answer, scouting is a continual process and you use everyting at your disposal to do the best job that you can to gain full information.
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In ZvZ I keep encountering variations of a blind ling/bling all in (some variation usually along the lines of 10 pool 15 Bling nest) with just spamming Zerglings from a 10 pool until the Baneling Nest is done and then just attacking at the earliest time with Banes and as many Lings as possible and I'm unsure of an openning that deals with it, other than just doing it myself. Additionally, even if I Drone scout as early as 9, if I don't find them straight away I'm either preparing for an all in that might not come or I lose from not being prepared, and I'm just really stuck.
Is there some build I can do or something I can change which will let me switch to preparing for this if needed but not be too far behind if there's an economic oppening? I typically always did a 14/14 Speedling expand in ZvZ but I'm finding that it gets destroyed by this build and various Baneling or Roach builds don't seem to be faring much better. Feels like a coinflip at the moment but I'm sure there must be something I can do
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On which maps do open your TvP with 2 Rax Techlab/Reactor Pressure? And please say why.
I want to play this style but i think the 1rax Fe is in any case better :/
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On November 05 2011 23:16 saaaa wrote:
On which maps do open your TvP with 2 Rax Techlab/Reactor Pressure? And please say why.
I want to play this style but i think the 1rax Fe is in any case better :/
Wide naturals that are difficult to hold with small numbers of bunkers and the closer the positions the better. Metal, Xel'naga, Shattered in the current 1v1 map pool. There's a kind of symmetry where the harder it is for him to hold with forcefields, the harder it is for you to hold with bunkers, and so you're better off opening aggressive.
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On November 05 2011 23:09 Iyerbeth wrote:
In ZvZ I keep encountering variations of a blind ling/bling all in (some variation usually along the lines of 10 pool 15 Bling nest) with just spamming Zerglings from a 10 pool until the Baneling Nest is done and then just attacking at the earliest time with Banes and as many Lings as possible and I'm unsure of an openning that deals with it, other than just doing it myself. Additionally, even if I Drone scout as early as 9, if I don't find them straight away I'm either preparing for an all in that might not come or I lose from not being prepared, and I'm just really stuck.
Is there some build I can do or something I can change which will let me switch to preparing for this if needed but not be too far behind if there's an economic oppening? I typically always did a 14/14 Speedling expand in ZvZ but I'm finding that it gets destroyed by this build and various Baneling or Roach builds don't seem to be faring much better. Feels like a coinflip at the moment but I'm sure there must be something I can do
You should be able to know when a bling allin is inbound. Firstly do you hatch first or go speedling expand typically? Personally I think fast expand is only good in particular situations. When you're in close air spawns almost exclusively. Maps like metalopolis, shattered temple, and shakuras for instance. If you see their first OL headed toward your base then you know he's close spawns. The reason this is a good thing to see is because you can scout their opening so you know whats coming. If they are cheesing, or also going hatch first, or anything sort of build inbetween. Otherwise what I typically do is some variation of a speedling expand. Once your first initial lings pop(6 is good), you send a drone down to the natural to drop your hatch as you head out to scout. With a build like 14/14 13/13 gas or pool first(preference, situation based) you can typically hold off any 6-8 pool.
From here you scout the opponents base. If they're making a bunch of lings you need to get at least one ling into his main to see if he has a bling nest, if theyre expanding, or slingallin. From here you drop appropriate tech. Maybe a spine if you overdroned, or just cant spend your money at the time and you expect an attack.
From here its basically taking every variable within the current game and equating that to the right amount of drones and units. If you do it right and read your opponent correctly, You should be fine going into the mid-game. Make sure you're placing your ols in a line from you to your opponent. starting with your first OL outside his main/ramp, so you can see all units he makes.
Here's an example of what i'm talking about.
+ Show Spoiler +
This build i've done is essentially what I do most zvz's. Notice how I use my first two overlords to find my opponent. Once I see he did an identical build I droned up a bit, and dropped a bling nest because mass sling after speed expand is common. I sent my 6 lings in as speed finishes to scout. I saw he was no longer getting any gas, which is obviously a huge tell that he isnt going bling, and no roaches for a bit. So I morphed a few blings and made 12 or so additional lings and attacked. Generally you kindve have to morph those lings anyway incase your opponent plans to just attack off two base, no economy. This replay doesn't show a bling rush from my opponent, but hopefully you can see how good scouting and decision making can prevent a loss to early blings. Ill look for a bling allin right now.
*Edit*
Ok here's an example of me doing the same initial openning, but then responding to what I see. I sneak the lings in again after sling expand and I spot the bling nest.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Thanks for your reply Sporadic, it really gave me a lot of direction, especially with the second replay, but I had a couple of quick questions as a result of them both if that's alright.
With regards Overlord spread and scouting I can proudly say that's one thing I'm pretty good at, but generally in the past when my opponent realises I've scouted them doing some all in that triggers the immediate move out and I still die, but I think I've learnt a few things from your replays that might prove useful (not all of which I'll cover in this post so as to keep it shorter but thank you all the same!)
I generally do a 14 gas 14 pool in to Speedling expand with the expansion as soon as I've started 2-4 Lings and a Spine and then Speed and then the Queen after that, but I've noticed your expansion comes a few supply later but with earlier Queens and much better scouting with Lings.
My first question, if you scouted your opponent had gone for a 15 hatch first build on the Shakuras replay, would you have just continued on or would you have built up for immediate aggression?
You said in your post that sometimes you'll go pool first and then gas, and I noticed you did that in the 2nd replay but not the first. Are there map specific things that would make that decision or is it a build thing? It seems on the surface that it's a slight change that may help to prepare for an all in without really affecting much.
I also noticed in the second game you left 1 Drone on gas after your first 100 and it worked out to be almost exactly what you needed to get the Baneling Nest down when you got that Ling in to scout your opponents Bling Nest. Is that an intentional timing, and is there any reason to not do that? Until now I've always pulled all 3 off gas to stop at exactly 100 where possible and then put 3 back on when I realise I need to build something but that seems like it'd just be a good idea to use.
Thanks again for your post.
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On November 05 2011 10:44 frogjg2003 wrote:When you ping the minimap, can your opponents see it? I was just in a 4v4 and my ally had some stalkers that could see a Nexus that had just started. I pinged the minimap, and the player immediately cancelled it. Going back to the replay, I saw that he could not see the stalkers, and he wasn't even looking at that part of the map. When I pinged, that's when he moved over and immediately cancelled. Here is a link to the replay: http://sc2rep.com/replays/download/id/15391. It happens at 19:08 in the bottom right.
Maphacks show enemy pings, so you should report him to Blizzard.
Otherwise no, map pings are shown only to allies and there's no option to send them to your opponents, even if you want to.
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Does anyone know how this ban command in mouzMorrows micro map works?
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Whats the most efficient way of stopping creep spread early on as Protoss? Feels like any time I move out its already at my door. I'm thinking something along the lines of where terran use a small pack of hellions.
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Hey your welcome lyerbeth, i'm always happy to help out my fellow zerg players. Especially in ZvZ because it can be a very confusing matchup to understand. I'll offer some advice on the subjects you mentioned above;
As for when I choose to go gas/pool or pool/gas,
+ Show Spoiler +
I cant really give a surefire conditional for this "If N do X OR If Y do Z" type of thing, but i'll offer some points to think about when considering pool and gas. One thing to consider is the size of the map, and what your Z opponent typically does there. Shakuras is a big map with a relatively secure natural, so alot of zerg either fast expand right away or speedling expand, with lots of drones. So with a 14 pool you should be safe from pretty much anything, due to the distance between you and your opponent. Furthermore, when your opponent FE's you'll always have ling speed before him, regardless of pool or gas first. Also, you get your queen out slightly faster. This is miniscule but having slightly quicker injects than your opponent can add up in ling or drone counts.
Put simply: gas/pool ling speed is quicker, a few extra moments to be aggressive off the bat, scout and pick off a drone or two etc. Pool/gas, queen pops a bit faster, slightly better against 6-10 pools, more larva to either drone or buildup lings at home.
To answer the question regarding when you scout Hatch First from your opponent.
+ Show Spoiler +
If I may elaborate on my previous post, I dont like hatch-first unless its close by air as you'll recall. And I'll explain why now. If I saw a hatch first with my first set of lings I'll run them immediately into his main, my lings usually get there as his are popping. From there I can see if he's getting gas, how much gas he's gotten, if there's a roach warren etc. You can float around his base for a bit dodging queens and his lings, so you should be able to prepare for virtually anything assuming you deduce correctly. But typically, you'll see one of three things right? He stops getting gas at 100(he's gonna rely on slings), he'll continue getting gas after speed(banelings are probable, but come much slower than speed first build blings), or he's getting roaches immediately. With this you also see a few spines go up at times.
Most of the time a hatch first is defensive posturing, they want to make drones with their setup as their tech is overall slower. (sidenote:if they stop getting gas all together you should drop a bling nest as they may choose to allin) With these assumptions lets take stock of the situation as your first 4-6 scouting lings run around. We have our expansion on the way, speeds almost done, we have a queen and injects rolling. He has slow slings, 2 hatches and speeds just started, or a roach warren is put down and he has virtually no scouting of our main and tech(he shouldnt at this point, our lings were out first). What does it mean? Our opponent cant really attack, so he wants to make drones. We have the option to put a little bit of pressure on because a counter attack is unlikely.
SO, generally its a good idea to make 6-10 more lings to join up with your inital lings(they shouldnt die when scouting). The goal is to have them pop from their eggs around the time speed finishes, as that allows a few more drones first and they skyrocket in effectiveness once speeds done. From there gather up your lings and poke their natural. If they played too greedy, you win outright with a little bit of micro. Isolate the queens, continue macroing, scout tech and snag a few drones. Thats obviously best case, other times you'll run up the ramp say on shakuras, and see 2 spines, and roaches blocking the ramp. He's defended. In this scenario, you're still in a decent spot. Roach openings in zvz IMO are not the way to do it. There are ways to make them work, but roaches are just too static early game. Roaches combined with spines is even more cumbersome. Investing in early roaches and spines after a FE leaves our opponent with no zerg speed, lower drone count, and less sensible options. So in this case try and skirt around the edges with your lings, try and get a drone if you can, or lure the queen away from the ramp. Other than that you dont really want to commit with your lings. Continuing droning. I like to drop one or two spines and really lay on the D key when I see roaches. You should get your own roach warren eventually, or mutas, whatever you like. Either way, the goal is that you have map control, and full intel on your opponents natural, you want to make more drones than him because you can safely. If he's morphing blings in, or has a few ready you can try and micro against him to waste banes, get a drone or two, and distract him attacking you. And if he's making tons of slings, make sure you have a bling nest, dont overcommit, and make a spine or two at home.
I've been winded at that this point. So to summarize: Yes attack with some slings if your opponent FE's. He has to commit units instead of drones, with speed you can be more cost efficent, getting more out of less units than your opponent. Also if you're attacking your opponent, He's not attacking you. So you can catch up in drone count easily, while getting a nice scout in the process.
Leaving one in gas Vs none
+ Show Spoiler + The way I play I like to sneak more drones in than most spling expanding zergs anyway. So generally I wont have enough larva to utilize all my minerals on just zerglings anyway. Because of this, I find it better to leave one drone on gas in case I need that quick bling nest. However, if I know my opponent is going roaches, taking all three off gas is a fine idea. You can use a couple spines to be safe(assuming you're sure its not a roach ling allin).
That about covers your questions regarding the replays. About the build you described:
+ Show Spoiler + From what I gather if I read write, you go 14 gas 14 pool, 4 lings, expansion, spine, then speed, then queen. This sounds very inefficient and wonky. There's no point in going 14 gas if you plan to do so much before grabbing ling speed. The goal of the speedling expand is to posture for map control, while having an economic mindset, and harassing your opponent Z to keep him honest. If you get a blind spine, you may not need that spine for another 3-5 minutes for whatever reason(opponent plays passive). All of a sudden you're out the 150 minerals and additional mining time. Never drop a spinecrawler that early unless you're positive its necessary. Furthermore, with 14 gas you should be able to buffer any sort of attack with your speed lings because you have the option of map control.
If you mimic what I do in the replays, you will be able to respond to an early bling attack efficiently.Get that early speed, get a ling in his base, and sneak in drones when you know you can.
After thought, food for thought:
ZvZ can be boiled down to, "I want to make drones whenever I want, I want to stop you from making drones whenever you want." That is to say, The Zerg who decides when the fights happen is in a comfortable spot. If you get the proper read on your opponent early, you should be able to exploit his weaknesses to gain incremental advantages, all while staying safe yourself. Keep practicing, and lastly, pick a particular pro, maybe someone with a replay pack out or something, and watch their ZvZs. Its good to watch any ZvZ obviously, but if you watch any pro player's MU ZvX you start to understand their logic behind decisions and the function of all the facets of their play. I watched like 15 or so of nerchios ZvZ like 2 months ago. I stole a lot of my strategy from him honestly. Get into opponents base when speed finishes, speedling expands instead of hatch first, and not going straight into roach(this is good in certain situations but usually just slings or blings is better).
That's all I have for now, I apologize in advance for any disorganized thoughts or wordy sentences just trying to be thorough. If you have more questions dont hesitate.
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EPT
