EPTa) is expanding behind aggression (with Gas)
b) is fast expanding of (1 or 2 Rax without Gas)
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freetgy
1720 Posts
a) is expanding behind aggression (with Gas) b) is fast expanding of (1 or 2 Rax without Gas) | ||
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ftl
28 Posts
On May 26 2011 23:24 Shahrazad wrote: I am re-posting because my strat post was closed, and I was advised to post my question in this thread: I have only seriously played as zerg, and I'm finding that I am as useful as a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest when playing as protoss. I have read most of what is in the liquipedia on protoss strategy, and searched this forum for specific topics (how to deal with specific things my opponent might do), but I'm afraid I have not a single clue about how protoss is actually supposed to play the game. As zerg, I mostly base my play off of what my opponent does, and it works pretty well, because of how easily zerg can react. I also expand almost at will, as soon as I feel a little bit "safe." I find that as protoss, I can't just will an army into existence like with zerg, and my expansion is almost always destroyed. Are there any guides out there on general protoss play, and the things a protoss should be doing? Am I supposed to semi-blindly mass an army in the early stages of the game, and hope for the best? I simply feel helplessly inflexible when I am anything but zerg. You can look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy . Also, in the recommended threads thread at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192233 , if you scroll down to the Protoss section, you'll find that for PvT and PvZ there's a "standard play" thread which gives possible standard gameplans. Does this help? I don't play zerg so I can't really comment on transitioning from one to the other. | ||
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
Basically its 3 raxes. One with reactor to pump out marines, one with tech lab to pump out repears, and the last to just pump out marines one by one. The attack hits with a strong number of marines and 3 repears at the 7:15 minute mark (it could probably be reduced to 7:00 after further testing) The build only works against zerg. Do you guys think its good against low-diamond zergs or no? | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
I saw this question pop up a few times in this thread and I was wondering the same thing myself. I couldn't find an answer to it and more and more people are doing this now. I just found this 2 month old thread today after trying some stuff out myself: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197826 You get extra minerals from the closer patches according to the op, but I've heard this question asked before on streams, vods and even day9 said he wasn't jumping on the close mineral patch band wagon yet. I was in the same boat. I tried several games in yabot on xel naga with zerg. Two games I made a drone then sent all my workers to mine the middle mineral patch and let it auto split. I sent my 7th drone to a close mineral patch near where it pops. I didn't make more drones. The first number is the game time. The second number is how many minerals I have in the first game at that time. The third number is how many minerals I have in the second game at that time. 1:00 / 255 / 255 1:30 / 395 / 400 2:00 / 560 / 560 2:30 / 710 / 710 To test mining the close mineral patches, I made a drone then split my workers in two groups of three which I think is the most common method except for idra who is gosu and can split workers in three groups of two. I then had them mine the close mineral patches. Again I only made the first drone for a total of 7 drones. 1:00 / 260 / 265 1:30 / 415 / 415 2:00 / 575 / 575 2:30 / 730 / 730 I was going to try this more times but the numbers from the second games were so close to the first game numbers that I stopped there. Plus it seems to support the evidence in the mining efficiency thread. I'm going to start splitting my workers and making them mine the close mineral patches. | ||
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Rat089
18 Posts
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Geiko
France1952 Posts
On May 27 2011 09:35 guitarizt wrote: "Why do some pros not mine the middle minerals at the beginning of the game?" I saw this question pop up a few times in this thread and I was wondering the same thing myself. I couldn't find an answer to it and more and more people are doing this now. I just found this 2 month old thread today after trying some stuff out myself: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=197826 You get extra minerals from the closer patches according to the op, but I've heard this question asked before on streams, vods and even day9 said he wasn't jumping on the close mineral patch band wagon yet. I was in the same boat. I tried several games in yabot on xel naga with zerg. Two games I made a drone then sent all my workers to mine the middle mineral patch and let it auto split. I sent my 7th drone to a close mineral patch near where it pops. I didn't make more drones. The first number is the game time. The second number is how many minerals I have in the first game at that time. The third number is how many minerals I have in the second game at that time. 1:00 / 255 / 255 1:30 / 395 / 400 2:00 / 560 / 560 2:30 / 710 / 710 To test mining the close mineral patches, I made a drone then split my workers in two groups of three which I think is the most common method except for idra who is gosu and can split workers in three groups of two. I then had them mine the close mineral patches. Again I only made the first drone for a total of 7 drones. 1:00 / 260 / 265 1:30 / 415 / 415 2:00 / 575 / 575 2:30 / 730 / 730 I was going to try this more times but the numbers from the second games were so close to the first game numbers that I stopped there. Plus it seems to support the evidence in the mining efficiency thread. I'm going to start splitting my workers and making them mine the close mineral patches. You might want to check out this guide which has a lot of good explainations on mining (and in particular this middle mineral question) : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211953 | ||
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-Crayon-
United States3 Posts
On May 27 2011 12:43 Rat089 wrote: What is a good way to counter a roach/mutalisk build as Protoss? I am struggling against this build because he can fly his mutas around harassing my minerals lines and it seems like once my blink stalkers get to my base to defend it he can fly to my expos and harass them, I don't know how to be at 2-3 places at once. For this build I usually try a stalker/immortal build but between his mutas focuses on my immortals and the roaches raping my stalkers there seems like nothing I can do to really stop it. As a zerg player, I can tell you a few ways to handle this: 1) As with any race, put up some static defense near your mineral line. By the time he's got mutas out, you're probably going to want the forge anyhow for upgrades, and a few cannons at each base will discourage him from harassing you with mutas. They're not particularly cost-effective against... well... much of anything, but certainly not against cannons, turrets, or spore crawlers. You can always scale your cannon number to the amount of mutas he's producing, as well. And because mutas are so gas-intensive, if he tries to mass-produce them to overpower your cannons, odds are his ground army is going to be significantly weaker, or he's going to have to go with lings instead of roaches. 2) Phoenixes. A couple of early phoenixes are fantastic for harassing zerg early in the game. Zerg's slowness in getting anti-air is one of their major weaknesses, so abuse it. And when/if the mutas come out, phoenixes are known to tear them apart. But, of course, you have to be careful balancing your phoenix count to make sure you still have a sufficient ground army. Keep in mind, that if you can harass successfully with phoenixes, or make him over-invest in anti-air, you can control the tempo of the game, and force him to either make lots of spore crawlers, hydras, or corruptors. If you can force him to go hydra, you can abuse their weakness to collossi and high templar. If he invests in spore crawlers and corruptors, you've successfully set him back, and stunted the size of his ground army. 3) You can always 4-gate him. Hope that was helpful. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
I searched teamliquid wikipedia but could not find it. I need a guide (or BO) For banshee rush and reaper rush. Thanks you! | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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AnxiousHippo
Australia1451 Posts
Hi people. I searched teamliquid wikipedia but could not find it. I need a guide (or BO) For banshee rush and reaper rush. Thanks you! [G] TvZ Cloaked Banshee Rush [G] TvZ 2 Rax into Banshee Reaper rushes are fairly open / you can choose your own style. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On May 27 2011 16:12 Geiko wrote: You might want to check out this guide which has a lot of good explainations on mining (and in particular this middle mineral question) : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211953 omg this looks awesome thanks. Way better than that one thread I think from beta where the op said that worker splitting didn't help. I've gotta start getting used to early worker micro. I used to just box everything and click on a middle patch, but I might as well do something useful in the early game. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
ALright next one, I know it is personal preference, but is it ok, as terran, if I go 22-24 scvs? And then when I want to expand, create more? So basically in general 22-24 is good yeah? FOr mineral? | ||
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Geiko
France1952 Posts
On May 27 2011 21:50 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: THank you Spike. ALright next one, I know it is personal preference, but is it ok, as terran, if I go 22-24 scvs? And then when I want to expand, create more? So basically in general 22-24 is good yeah? FOr mineral? You should ALWAYS be making SCV at all points in the game (until you reach 70-80...) even if you are on one base. When you get your expansion, you maynard (transfer) SCVs so as to have an equal number of SCVs on every base. To see if my expansion is fully saturated or not, I just box all my workers. If I have approximately a control group of them, then it is saturated. But even if you are saturated, don't stop making SCVs, you'll need them for your next base. | ||
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Kevan
Sweden2303 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Ok anoterh question!  Which is better....and yes I have used the search function. Hellion harass vs Reaper? I assume reaper is only good if there is lots of cliffs....in general hellions may be more beneficial? And is there guide for reaper and hellions? THe ones on search are only TvT reaper rush etc. I want something more for general purposes. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:43 Kevan wrote: How long will it take to get to master league level of play if I start playing a minimun of 4 hours a day conciously trying to get better? I know this is hard to answer but if you would guess.(I'm silver now after around 50 wins) Pretty much impossible to judge, It really depends on the person and the motiviation. Can you see now what your weaknesses are? If so you can get better a lot quicker. If you cant then its going to a take a long time. Obviously the more you play and the more you play the same stratagies you can start seeing why you are losing to certain builds and how you adapt, so playing a lot should improve you generally but the speed at which that happens really does go with what type of person you are. For me I am stubborn and it takes me longer to adapt to new things then others!!!! | ||
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Geiko
France1952 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:55 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Always making SCVs/??? = / Ok anoterh question! Which is better....and yes I have used the search function. Hellion harass vs Reaper? I assume reaper is only good if there is lots of cliffs....in general hellions may be more beneficial? And is there guide for reaper and hellions? THe ones on search are only TvT reaper rush etc. I want something more for general purposes. Yes, always making SCVs. Economy is the most aspect of SC2. We can't just tell you what unit is better. They are both harassing methods, and using one or the other will depend on your BO, how you fit them in your general gameplay etc... For example, if you want to make an MMM army, you'll notice you have a factory that's not doing anything. You can use it to make hellions and go scout/harass expansions. If you are making a Thor/viking army, maybe you can use your barracks to go scout or make a reaper (but reapers cost gas...) You sound like you have a lot of things to learn from the game. Thankfully, TL is a great place to get started. Here are a couple of nice guides to get you started : Basic notions : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191134 General guide on getting better : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343 | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Are there any good sources to read/watch to understand the matchup better, or does anyone have any tips? Thanks a lot | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:43 Kevan wrote: How long will it take to get to master league level of play if I start playing a minimun of 4 hours a day conciously trying to get better? I know this is hard to answer but if you would guess.(I'm silver now after around 50 wins) So the part I put in bold is the really tricky part. I think it would take at most a month (probably only 2 weeks) with the practice schedule you're talking about if you really spent 4 hours a day focused intently on improving exactly one thing at a time with intense rigorous practice. However, doing this for 4 hours a day is incredibly hard and if you think it's not, you're probably not doing it right. In 4 hours of intent practice you could have a near perfectly executed expand build for all 3 matchups you play. Expand builds normally only have about 8 minutes of real time to practice if you include the increased production after the expand. So at this rate you could have practiced a build approximately 8 times per hour with extreme focus. I'm not saying you'll understand all the nuances of the rushes you need to defend, but you don't need to win 100% of games to get to masters and having really solid executing wins a TON of games. You could do these 4 hours of practice in the macro or die map against the AI and just leave the game as soon as you're done with the part you want to practice. After a week of doing this I would be shocked if you weren't crushing the same opponents on ladder. I think even a player at my level (reasonably high masters) would benefit tremendously from practicing like that, but my lack of motivation to do this is holding me back from being a better player and that's nobody's fault but my own). | ||
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RM_12
201 Posts
On May 28 2011 00:09 Teoita wrote: Lately i have been struggling with pvp when it gets to the midgame (im in mid diamond), as i just have no understanding of what is supposed to happen at all...when you can and can not expand, what tech to add after your 3 gates and robo, when to start upgrades, and most especially, when i can just kill my opponent for trying to expand, and when i should expand myself: i'm pretty much improvising a build without knowing what is good or bad, which kinda sucks when you are used to having good plans and builds for pvt and pvz. Are there any good sources to read/watch to understand the matchup better, or does anyone have any tips? Thanks a lot I recently just figured it out for myself. I usually go defensive 4 gate in pvp but for 3gate robo mid game will be similar. If you expand first, you will win as long as you don't throw away your advantage, but you can expand only if you gain some sort of army advantage first (better composition, or more units). You can also expand if you end up losing pylon and missing production cycle while keeping enemy in his base guarding ramp, because you will have extra money and time to prepare for counter attack (this happens to me alot and it works out very well). Be sure to kill any proxy pylons he might have. Do not tech and expand at the same time It's better to get robo bay faster and expand when you have collosus advantage (you should be able to see it with your observer based on unit count or robo bay timing) Start your Thermal lance upgrade when you have 3rd collosus in production, it's also good time to get +1 attack. When both upgrades finish you should push out with 4-5 colossi, many zealots, few stalkers and few sentries for support. If your enemy was on 1 base or expanded later than you and didn't go for this unit composition you should crush him. | ||
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