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Greetings,
I've been playing with this build for a while now, and have been winning most (80%+) games versus zerg as a terran player. I wanted to share it with other people who could maybe utilize it and perhaps even improve it.
This build will work on most Zerg going FE (building 2nd Hatchery before or at the same time as a spawning pool). I'll detail an adaption against 1 base zerg later on in the thread, but if you spot 1 base, I suggest you play your most comfortable strategy.
The fundamental idea is this : A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust, instead of going, for example, hydralisks. This build counts on 1) lack of detection and 2) lack of anti-air units (other than queens). A zerg who scouts or 'sniffs' this tactic will have 3 options : fill the base up with spore crawlers (most common), go for fast mutalisks (worst case scenario, and one that usually happens) or go for hydralisks (situationaly even worse than mutalisks). Your bet is that you can have 3-4 cloaked banshees in his base before he has a chance to put down a lot of defences, and while he is teching to lair, or building the spire. If you can take out the spire, and can handle the queens (which are usually 2-4 and split between main and expo), you've pretty much bagged a win.
My usual BO goes like this :
+ Show Spoiler +9 Scouts
10 SD
12 Rax
13 Ref*
15 Marine, balance building until you have 4
16 OC
16 SD (finish the wall), and throughout**
16 Ref (if not up already)
@ 100 Gas
Factory -> TL
Bunker***
2xStarport
Switch TL with factory
TL on 2nd SP
2x Helions -> move out.
2x Banshees + Cloak (and keep pumping banshees, rally them to your first built)
2nd bunker + 4 marines
*<- at this point a drone may be poking your main. If you need to, build a second Refinery (usually at 14, but varies) so as to deny him the gas steal.
**<- build your 3rd and 4th SD spreading to the edges of your base where an overlord may peek. If on a 1v1 map, one at the back of your base might be a good idea. On 2v2 just spread them in the direction where you think an overlord might peek. (Your scouting helps the decision here naturally)
***<- by now you should have 4 marines, put them in the bunker. You want to ideally build your starports immediately after factory finishes, both at the same time. Best case scenario is you have 500 minerals and 400 gas by the time they both finish and you get 2xBanshees + Cloak underway. Might need a little practice but it's doable.
- BLUFF EXPLANATION -
A wall-in with Rax + SD will naturally temp the zerg to go banelings. 2 bunkers and 2 helions + scv's repairing (2 on each side) WILL hold almost everything the zerg can throw at you (or if it doesn't, then he probably doesn't have much in his base and you've won, just lift your CC). Harassing with the 2 helions may bluff the zerg into dropping his anti-air guard slightly, maybe even make him think that you're going Mech. If you can kill a few drones on the expo, then feel free to either pull the helions back or go to the main to get a peek and maybe kill some drones there as well. If the helions die, replace them ASAP, they are crucial to your defence.
- EXECUTION -
Once you have 3-4 banshees (cloak should have finished or be finishing at around this time), attack. Your targets are 1) Spire 2) Queens 3) Lair. If no lair, SCAN the expo (you should scan either way just in case he's building his spire there, or teching that to 2nd lair). If you can kill the spire then you are 80% there to winning the game. Focus on his queens next, with cloak it shouldn't be a problem unless he has a detector in which case you face a problem depending on the number of queens. 4 banshees will 2-shot a queen provided he doesn't heal it. As you get more banshees you'll have less and less of a problem dealing with queens, but remember that time is of the essence, you can't spend it kiting or retreating. A lair still means a spire may pop up and that will seriously mess up your game. If you kill spire + queens then GG. Kill Lair and move over to the expo. Collect win.
As a side note, with 5-6 banshees you can start tearing down the spore crawlers. Select a banshee with full health, click to attack a crawler then attack with the rest of your banshees. The crawler will attack the full healthed banshee and with 5+ banshees on it, it won't kill her. Rinse and repeat, usually you wont need to do this more than twice at worst, just find an opening to attack and exploit it.
- ADAPTATION -
- If he gets SPIRE up, you have a very small window to destroy it and then burn down the lair. It won't stop mutas from coming, but it will at least prevent more from coming for the next few minutes. Stop banshee production, build Engi bay, and start pumping Vikings. Calculate the amount of Mutas coming and pull marines from the bunkers if they're needed (banshees can defend outside the base in case of a bust). If things start to get REALLY hairy, tech to Thors and god be with you.
- If he goes HYDRALISKS, build 4-6 Vikings to snipe the detector and wipe the floor with your cloaked banshees. Zerg will usually be badly irritated by this point. Keep vikings in proximity in case a 2nd detector comes along, and reinforce Viking/Banshee combo as necessary. Aim to finish the game fast.
- If he starts pumping out SPORE CRAWLERS like mad, expand and build moar banshees. A defence spam (and an anti-air at that) will leave a zerg VERY vulnerable to your ground army. So with your excess minerals add a reactor to factory and start pumping out helions. A combo with Banshees, Marines + Helions will probably be adequate to deal with the sea of zerglins/banelings you may encounter, so pull the rines back, let banshees auto attack and micro helions.
- If you scout a 1 base Zerg, your best bet is he's going roaches. Pump 2nd Rax ASAP and try to get at least 1 banshee out (cloak optional) to hold the line. It's doable, and it usually ends the game there.
It's not technically a cheese because even if you lose some banshees you can still put up a defense, but it'll be pretty close. I wish you all best of luck with this build and I'm open to any positive feedback.
Here's a replay, more to follow :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201131.jpg)
This is arguably a 'best-case' scenario. Zerg probably fell for my 2nd rax.
Even with a gas steal, going for some helions might some times be enough to throw even experienced (1000+ wins) zergs off-balance.
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I sometimes do a banshee rush and wait until I have 4 banshees to move out. If he doesn't scout it, his queen at main will be dead before he can assist with the other one. If i see a spire complete, I usually go for as many drone kills as possible or to aim down the spire if he runs away with his drones.
I also throw down extra raxes during the attack since you will stack minerals by only building banshee and marines and that helps protect against a counter push with muta. I usually transition into mass thors with blue-flamed hellions with marine support.
I have found it to be a good tactic if you do enough damage with your banshees. Otherwise you will have to poke around with them as best as possible and hope for the best  I'm only a diamond player with at best an average apm of 70-80 and I can't handle bio against Zerg :p
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Do you have a replay to share of you demonstrating this at a fairly high level of play? I'm pretty interested.
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Greetings Alexbeav
I have to thub-down this build because:
it's all-in
it's risky
it's cheesy
it's see-through
it's all-in
User was warned for this post
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Replay would be rly nice! I lost to something very similar the other day. You can also deny Zerg scouting by placing 2 marines at the edge of your base, so the Scouting Ovi dies before he sees what he needs to see to survive!
Btw: 4+ Banshees are redicilous hard to stop for Zerg, when the Spire isnt up in time. With proper micro, you can kill the 3 Queens that the normal Zerg has at that time.
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United States15275 Posts
The only thing I would warn you about is letting the scout drone stay in the main for too long. Gas is 16 is extremely suspicious; Gas at 14 is a gigantic flashing sign. You may want to wait until the drone is dead so you have the element of surprise. Your build is suspiciously close to an all-in and you'll need to do damage if you want to win the game.
Also I'd like to hear your contingency plan if Zerg expands in response and throws down lots of spore crawlers at his third as well.
On April 05 2011 06:35 Sagolikt wrote:I sometimes do a banshee rush and wait until I have 4 banshees to move out. If he doesn't scout it, his queen at main will be dead before he can assist with the other one. If i see a spire complete, I usually go for as many drone kills as possible or to aim down the spire if he runs away with his drones. I also throw down extra raxes during the attack since you will stack minerals by only building banshee and marines and that helps protect against a counter push with muta. I usually transition into mass thors with blue-flamed hellions with marine support. I have found it to be a good tactic if you do enough damage with your banshees. Otherwise you will have to poke around with them as best as possible and hope for the best I'm only a diamond player with at best an average apm of 70-80 and I can't handle bio against Zerg :p
You transition from banshee rush to mass thor off one base? Pardon me but that doesn't sound very efficient.
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Thank you for your replies ! (That went smoother than expected.) I will provide a few replays with wins and maybe a couple of losses where I point out my mistakes when I get back home. Keep in mind I'm currently at 40-50 diamond but that's due to a loss streak vs Toss, I'm usually not over 25, will probably go master in a week or two with my current W/L ratio.
CosmicSpiral, if the Zerg expands to 3rd that means I either am at the point where I have 8-9 banshees and w/o spire/hydras I'm unstoppable or he's throwing all his money building an economy I can easily raep. I don't see him building 3rd expo + Spire/Hydras + having enough of an economy to maintain a continuously-pumping army. If all else fails, just harass workers until you bleed him to death. But I strongly recommend just finding an opening and exploiting it to kill lair/hatcheries.
Also, for the gas thing. It may also be possible just to start building it and abandon it while the zerg is in-base simply as a guarding measure against the steal. Waiting until you have 2-3 marines + pulling SCVs will put you back a bit and timing is of the essence. You could also opt to wall in early (while the rax is building) if a drone hasn't arrived at your base yet (in 2v2 maps for example).
And I'm not talking mass thors. 4 are enough to vaporise a large group of mutalisks. I usually just get an engi bay, expand and pop some turrets while I'm building thor/vikings.
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This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over..
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yus - i've done this before but i'd like to see you do it in a game.
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Well I just love banshees and wanted to use them. It's certainly interesting and it certainly works if you deny scouting and can bluff well enough to mislead the zerg into thinking you're going for something else. A 2nd Rax next to your rax should also be fun, of course you don't complete it, but you make the zerg think 'roaches'. 2 base + roaches vs banshees = gg
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A good Zerg can easily detect this cuz:
-You dont have marines
-You have a wall
-You have bunkers
And a good overlord sacrifice, can show all your BO
This BO its ALLin and cheese, i used to this, but i really think this only works until high platinium. Anyways, good micro (3 queens) can easily kill 4 banshees (no cloack). GL
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It's unbelievably frustrating to lose to 3-4 units in your base, when you've macro'd up so well and you have a solid group of units.
It's also really ineffective for Zerg to go straight Lair ---> Hydra for any other strategic reason other than to directly counter your banshees, so they are unlikely to have an answer if they didn't see it coming.
Like I said, you will get a lot of Zerg rage for this build. Especially since Zerg don't really have a unit that can do the same to Terran that early in the game. I can't tell you how many times I've slammed 'gg' before quitting the game after losing to 3-4 cloaked banshees in my main, taking down my hydra den.
It's infuriating. Hopefully this thread isn't read by too many Terran on the NA Diamond ladder ...
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darkzuka you're missing the point, half this build is bluffing to con the zerg into thinking you're going for tanks and deny his scouting, and the other half is HAVING cloak when you reach his base. 4 queens TOGETHER and WITH detection are a problem, but that doesnt mean I can't just ignore them and take out the expo.
Foe91, yep this happens a lot. I rarely if ever stumble upon someone who doesnt rage when facing this build and losing, but hey these guys have baneling bust :D i just wanted to come up with a 'revenge tactic' and since cloaked units are my fav, I modified the 2 port banshee versus terran to work against zerg. I'll post replays later.
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and I can verify thats this build works waaay higher than 'high platinium' 
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We have baneling bust...
But then you lift your buildings, and the very best we can hope for is a draw, as you destroy our base 
If I could find it, I'm sure I have a replay somewhere of my 10-15 roaches and 10 zerglings destroying everything in the terran base only to have him lift his CC and continue to destroy my base with his 2 banshees.
This is not intended to be a whine by any means. The strategy is viable.. and it works.. too well, unfortunately
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It's not technically a cheese because even if you lose some banshees you can still put up a defense, but it'll be pretty close. I wish you all best of luck with this build and I'm open to any positive feedback.
lolwut? you go kinda all-in with no expo so late. If zerg holds it, and i know how i could/would hold it (kinda 40/60 chance) you are behind. No expo even started.
But besides if it wins you alot. I just dont like people play for the short games to win easy. Ofc eveyone does what he likes but for me its just another all-in/cheese/call it whatever you like.
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Yes a base trade is possible, and I've made it happen. I'll dig up the replay, should be amusing. around 6 banshees, 10 vikings and 1 starport playing hide and seek versus mutalisks while banshees go hunting.
but the point of 2 bunkers + 2 helions + scvs repairing is you should not need to base trade.
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On April 05 2011 15:53 Foe91 wrote:
Like I said, you will get a lot of Zerg rage for this build. Especially since Zerg don't really have a unit that can do the same to Terran that early in the game. I can't tell you how many times I've slammed 'gg' before quitting the game after losing to 3-4 cloaked banshees in my main, taking down my hydra den.
As a Zerg player, I can tell you Foe is right on point here. There is nothing that makes me rage more than cloak banshees when I'm unprepared for them. It doesn't matter if your timing wasn't perfect or if you aren't a great player, having 3-4 cloak 'shees when i'm not ready for em and I'll just leave, possibly with some BM on my way towards the Surrender button.
That said, I do think 2-port cloak banshee is a disturbingly powerful build if Z doesn't prepare for it. However, similar to a Protoss going for a 1-base DT rush, if the Zerg figures out/guesses what you are doing, you are pretty much all-in and very far behind. I believe 2-port banshee used to be popular a while ago, and went out of style. I've only had one T player use a 1-base banshee build on me in about my last 20 ZvTs. Definitely a good guide write-up, but I wouldn't suggest it as a go-to strat in all of your TvZs. Especially in any sort of series format, it should work at most once.
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Let me explain how this build is not very strong. First of all as you said a gas steal is likely or if you put a 2nd ref down at 14, yeah, nothing much else to say. Next 2 hellions are incredibly inefficient because they one shot nothing at all and can (or should I say will) get eaten up by speedlings which will proceed to camp your nat or poke at your ramp. If there is further doubt they can sac an overlord into your ramp where they will certainly see your bunker. And no terran will ever bunker his main unless he is teching, and the most obvious thing that terrans ever try to tech for is...
yeah...
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By the way, if you highlight the parts you want to "code out so they can expand it" in your OP and click the little [s] button at the top of the edit box, it will wrap what you'd highlighted in spoiler tags, causing it to show up in your post
[spoiler]like this[/spoiler]
What bothers me most about your strategy here is that it feels like a win granted because the Zerg didn't do something, rather than because you did. It doesn't in any way show you're better than your opponent, it merely shows that without much mobile anti-air, or readily accessible detection, the Zerg is extremely vulnerable to flying DTs.
Like most cheese, it is harder to hold than to perform. Because it is a strategy game, I can't say it's an illegitimate strategy... but if your goal in life is amassing wins vZ in ladder rather than solid play, go nuts!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201928.jpg)
