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it's all-in
it's risky
it's cheesy
it's see-through
it's all-in
Not sure why you got a warning, since it's a legitimate comment but perhaps stated a bit too bluntly. However, I think you're wrong since it's neither all-in nor see-through. In fact, it's a helluva mindfuck.
Why it's not see-through
+ Show Spoiler +
- On some maps it's simply impossible to OL sac scout either because of the number of places you can hide your tech in or the ability to quickly spot the OL and use a couple of marines to take him down.
- If my OL gets sniped down by just a couple of marines, sure, I'll know "hmm this guy is teching up for something sneaky". This is where the mindfucking begins - anyone that plays zerg can tell you that this moment right here is probably the only rock paper scissor in Starcraft (even build order "wins" and early cheese can be scouted with an early worker). If you gear up for cloaked banshees and he goes BFH you're f'ed. If you gear up for mech and pump roaches you're f'ed. It's a guessing game, so definitely not see-through.
Why it's not all-in:
+ Show Spoiler + - Everyone has his own definition of all-in, but I think most can agree it's either a do or die tactic that leaves you without units and the possibility of regrouping or puts you so far behind that everything goes downhill from there (these are the "you need to do significant damage" types of all ins like 6-pool, mass cannons against zerg, proxies, etc).
- Cloaked banshee is not an all-in resource wise thanks to the awesomenessness of MULES (you can at least get some quick bunkers up if it fails)
- Cloaked banshee does not leave you unit-less like a mass cannon into void rays tactic
Why it's not (as) risky as some would say:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Every tactic in SC2 has a risk-reward duality. Speedling into expand is a low-risk low-reward build order, whereas something like marine-SCV is high risk high reward. Tactics like hidden pylons in PvP are low risk (you lose some minerals and perhaps a few seconds of supply block) and high reward (if you get away with it it's gg for the other guy).
- I'd say cloaked banshees are somewhere along the low risk high reward line. Yes, it's a big gas investment. Yes, banshees are not as useful after the timing window has passed. Yes it delays your expo but you don't expose yourself that badly as to have you insta-lose the game if you fail to do "significant damage". As for the reward? Please, if you're on the winning side of the rock-paper-scissor game against the zerg, he's dead regardless of his APM/skill/decision making/micro.
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I don't understand... isn't this the standard 2 port banshee? what's the diff?
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Whenever a terran frantically denies scouting I usually go build more queens and 1-2 Overseers (or just Evo+ 1 Spore at each base) and when I feel safer or managed to survive until overlord speed decide on a more definite tech path.
This basically really sounds like 2 port banshee. Hellion tech route isn't that effective when Zerg has more queens and possible 1-2 Spinecrawlers as well, so I suppose this should let you survice for a while.
I agree it's a very annoying build and sometimes hard to hold though.
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The issue I have with this build is it is very much an I hope he doesn't notice build. You will do huge damage to the zerg if he doesn't notice that you're not expanding or putting pressure on him and he either expands without getting detection or tries and fails to bust your ramp. However, what you're planning is fairly transparent, and if the zerg does catch on, you're basically dead. I don't think this typically smells like one-base tanks, as a tank push would need a lot of marines to back it up, and this build has a very low marine count. In addition, this same low marine count makes it very easy to suicide an overlord into your main to determine your tech path, so again, you're hoping the zerg doesn't see it.
A low infantry count, (only 4 marines?) no expo, and bunker at the front fairly well SCREAM
shenannigans from a terran, (actually as soon as a terran puts his bunker up on the ramp it's typically a sign of either fast medivac or fast banshee play) and this is quite holdable off of 2 base without getting fast mutas or hydras. With 1/2 spores in each mineral line and 3 queens to start (queue up one more from each hatch once you see the banshees moving out, which you will with good overlord spread) this attack will basically be crushed and leave you significantly behind.
From that point, unless you manage to kill a significant number of drones (and it will have to be very signfiicant - lack of pressure means the zerg will probably have been spamming the D key like it was their job) you are way behind. The zerg will have at least one expo on you, and from there there are a number of ways to either starve you out or straight-up kill you. No matter what you do, you will have invested a significant amount of money in tech that didn't pay off, and you will simply not have enough units to hold.
Your hydra adaptation is also incorrect. A zerg who sniffs fast banshees is not going to rush for overseers - they're gas-starved as it is. They're going to get spore crawlers, just one or two, and if they do produce just two or three hydras, then that + the queens is going to crush this attack. If you WERE to wait for that many vikings coming out, this differential would only increase.
Edit: For a little more in depth discussion of timings, consult this marvelous thread. You can pop 4 cloaked banshees at about 8:16. On close air (where this is most dangerous - less time for a zerg to react) they can hit the zerg's base by probably 8:30ish, depending on the map. Conversely, a zerg can have his 3rd queen down before the 7 minute mark, and will have his evo around then as well.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 05 2011 15:31 Alexbeav wrote:
Thank you for your replies ! (That went smoother than expected.) I will provide a few replays with wins and maybe a couple of losses where I point out my mistakes when I get back home. Keep in mind I'm currently at 40-50 diamond but that's due to a loss streak vs Toss, I'm usually not over 25, will probably go master in a week or two with my current W/L ratio.
CosmicSpiral, if the Zerg expands to 3rd that means I either am at the point where I have 8-9 banshees and w/o spire/hydras I'm unstoppable or he's throwing all his money building an economy I can easily raep. I don't see him building 3rd expo + Spire/Hydras + having enough of an economy to maintain a continuously-pumping army. If all else fails, just harass workers until you bleed him to death. But I strongly recommend just finding an opening and exploiting it to kill lair/hatcheries.
Also, for the gas thing. It may also be possible just to start building it and abandon it while the zerg is in-base simply as a guarding measure against the steal. Waiting until you have 2-3 marines + pulling SCVs will put you back a bit and timing is of the essence. You could also opt to wall in early (while the rax is building) if a drone hasn't arrived at your base yet (in 2v2 maps for example).
And I'm not talking mass thors. 4 are enough to vaporise a large group of mutalisks. I usually just get an engi bay, expand and pop some turrets while I'm building thor/vikings.
Well, just from my perspective, I throw down Spore Crawlers whenever I sniff out a rush to banshee. They automatically reveal banshees for my queens to focus-fire, possess a ton of hitpoints, cost no gas, and fire just as fast as hydras but with more attack damage. Mutas or hydras don't mean anything without detection plus they're both gas-heavy, incredibly fragile, incredibly predictable and incredibly weak as a defensive precaution. So I'm not going to build a spire or a hydra den. If anything if I tech up to lair I'll go for an infestor pit. But since most Zergs will attempt to tech up or spam queen production to deal with it (it just seems that people don't want to make spore crawlers for AA defense), I don't think you need so many banshees to force that tech switch. You could cut a banshee or two to research Stim/Combat Shield/Pre-Igniter for a marine-hellion push once the Zerg makes too many Queens/Spore Crawlers/Hydralisks/Mutas.
If you built the Refinery simply to stop the Zerg from taking it, that's pretty revealing as well. It shows you need that geyser for something.
If I do go for a third it would be a sneaky one.
Also, I'd advice you to lose the bunker. A bunker down next to the ramp indicates an upcoming expansion, but a bunker protecting the top of the ramp tells me a committed tech switch. It becomes too obvious that you'll looking to survive until your tech switch completes.
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Ive been doing this since beta, and Im finding alot of zergs are just blindy putting down a spore crawler to try and prevent banshees.
That said what ive done instead is tech straight to BCS' push when i have about 8 hellions, 6 marines, and 2 bcs, pull some scvs for repair.
If he has banelings you are in trouble because eventually he will overwhelm you, but if you properly control your hellions you should be able to kill them and bring your scvs in after to repair. I always get yamato so I can kill the queens that can transfuse.
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After seeing your replay, i am quite sure it will stop working at a gold/platinum level (EU).
Your opponent didnt scout AT ALL and your banshees hit him around the 9:00 - 9:30 minute mark.
He had t2 tech and he had an evo chamber... he had not even connected main and natural... after 9 minutes
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On April 06 2011 01:28 Tudi wrote:Not sure why you got a warning, since it's a legitimate comment but perhaps stated a bit too bluntly. However, I think you're wrong since it's neither all-in nor see-through. In fact, it's a helluva mindfuck. Why it's not see-through + Show Spoiler +
- On some maps it's simply impossible to OL sac scout either because of the number of places you can hide your tech in or the ability to quickly spot the OL and use a couple of marines to take him down.
- If my OL gets sniped down by just a couple of marines, sure, I'll know "hmm this guy is teching up for something sneaky". This is where the mindfucking begins - anyone that plays zerg can tell you that this moment right here is probably the only rock paper scissor in Starcraft (even build order "wins" and early cheese can be scouted with an early worker). If you gear up for cloaked banshees and he goes BFH you're f'ed. If you gear up for mech and pump roaches you're f'ed. It's a guessing game, so definitely not see-through.
Why it's not all-in: + Show Spoiler + - Everyone has his own definition of all-in, but I think most can agree it's either a do or die tactic that leaves you without units and the possibility of regrouping or puts you so far behind that everything goes downhill from there (these are the "you need to do significant damage" types of all ins like 6-pool, mass cannons against zerg, proxies, etc).
- Cloaked banshee is not an all-in resource wise thanks to the awesomenessness of MULES (you can at least get some quick bunkers up if it fails)
- Cloaked banshee does not leave you unit-less like a mass cannon into void rays tactic Why it's not (as) risky as some would say: + Show Spoiler +
- Every tactic in SC2 has a risk-reward duality. Speedling into expand is a low-risk low-reward build order, whereas something like marine-SCV is high risk high reward. Tactics like hidden pylons in PvP are low risk (you lose some minerals and perhaps a few seconds of supply block) and high reward (if you get away with it it's gg for the other guy).
- I'd say cloaked banshees are somewhere along the low risk high reward line. Yes, it's a big gas investment. Yes, banshees are not as useful after the timing window has passed. Yes it delays your expo but you don't expose yourself that badly as to have you insta-lose the game if you fail to do "significant damage". As for the reward? Please, if you're on the winning side of the rock-paper-scissor game against the zerg, he's dead regardless of his APM/skill/decision making/micro.
The warn was for "not contributing nor putting enough effort". I am guilty as charged and not excluding the possibility of recidivism when confronted to other topics such as this one.
Seeing not only one-basing but cheesy one-basing promoted as strategy never gets the best of me because instead of enjoying the game evolving it feels as if i'm back in prehistoric beta or 1.0 release.
2 starport opening is a huge all-in, covering all the situations ranging from the all-inner being screwed immediately to the all-inner being screwed in the long game.
For some reason many TvZs where Zergs win, say, a 30 min game, appear balanced for the full 30 min, when in reality the game is won or lost in the first 12 (3rd kicking in or getting denied). You have 0 chances of denying 3rd with this opening. Not to mention you can't even secure your own natural.
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What key clues can zerg look for to try to identify the difference between a (blue) hellion opening and 2-port?
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Its fun to see most of the cheese and all in's I have been using for months.. get posted and debated lol. I stoped doing this as im rank 1 diamond playing masters alot and they do sniff this kinda play out 9 out of 10 games 
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a lot of the times when i go for mech and deny the zerg scouting, the zerg will put down a few precautionary spore crawlers, however i mass about 10 hellions with blue flame and ravage the drone lines. Zerg rages. hard to follow up however. Its pretty much all in. if your hellions fail but still do descent amount of damage,you can still move out with a thor and a few marines with hellion support ahnd hope for the best. Also expand and throw down 3 more rax and hope you dont get swarmed by bling mutas. at this point you will be behind greatly and will probably only win if zerg screws up and miss micros theyre banelings
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a lot of the times when i go for mech and deny the zerg scouting, the zerg will put down a few precautionary spore crawlers, however i mass about 10 hellions with blue flame and ravage the drone lines. Zerg rages. hard to follow up however.
Case in point. If you deny scouting, which you should be able to do with 100% precision, the zerg is left guessing for one of the two major (semi)all-ins you can do - BFH and Cloaked Banshees. I don't see a middle-ground strategy that would work well defending against both of them. Maybe cutting gas and drone and just focusing on getting mass queens out but besides the resource issue (you will NOT have enough resources and time to both mass queen and throw down spores or tech to lair and overseers) this really isn't a tactical decision based on skill, it's more like forcing a pair of scissors to cut through both paper and rock.
What key clues can zerg look for to try to identify the difference between a (blue) hellion opening and 2-port?
Nothing. You might be able to get some overlords around his base and spot the banshees leaving for yours earlier, or you could scout the front and see the hellions leave for the push (and also sac your scouting ling to see if they're blue flame or not, which makes a huge difference in how you respond really).
P.S. I'm sorry if I sound like your average whiney zerg, I promise I'm the Grand Defender of "Zerg is not UP" in most threads but anything related to early-game scouting gets me going since this is the only flaw I currently see in zerg balance.
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On April 05 2011 05:57 Alexbeav wrote:
Harassing with the 2 helions may bluff the zerg into dropping his anti-air guard slightly, maybe even make him think that you're going Mech.
All seeing hellions makes me think is that you have at least factory tech. Since I scout early I almost assuredly saw you take both gas. A one basing terran on two gas throwing hellions at me makes me think:
1) 1/2 port banshee w/ cloak
2) Blue flame hellion drops.
A spinecrawler or two, good overlord placement and paying attention will make hellion drops manageable, at that point I only have one thing to really worry about.
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I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
by 'cut scv's at 18' you mean 18 @ minerals + 6 on gas right ? This looks good, will try it when I get back home (and post those replays I've been promising)
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:
I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
Could you show us some replays?
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if terrans turtle so hard to an extant they build 2 bunkers and scvs repairing, i would either guess:
-BC
-Thors
or
-Banshee rush
so that's when zergs throw down evo chamber and start making queens
If terran makes 2 bunkers, this is what i think. "He really must not want to get baneling busted cuz if he does, he won't have any units to counter my mass lings."
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i tried it without bunkers too, since helions and scvs repairing pretty much hold the wall
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Cool stuff. My TvZ is terribad, so I would love to try this out. The only thing I would add is a cool tactic I saw Hashe use: He brings 1 scv to an expo near the enemies base and puts it on auto-repair. The way he uses banshees, he doesn't try to end the game, so after he does some banshee harass, he brings them to the SCV and lets it repair. In this case, it takes a long time to repair, so it might no be the best idea. Perhaps just bring banshees that are very low on health there.
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EPT
