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Greetings,
I've been playing with this build for a while now, and have been winning most (80%+) games versus zerg as a terran player. I wanted to share it with other people who could maybe utilize it and perhaps even improve it.
This build will work on most Zerg going FE (building 2nd Hatchery before or at the same time as a spawning pool). I'll detail an adaption against 1 base zerg later on in the thread, but if you spot 1 base, I suggest you play your most comfortable strategy.
The fundamental idea is this : A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust, instead of going, for example, hydralisks. This build counts on 1) lack of detection and 2) lack of anti-air units (other than queens). A zerg who scouts or 'sniffs' this tactic will have 3 options : fill the base up with spore crawlers (most common), go for fast mutalisks (worst case scenario, and one that usually happens) or go for hydralisks (situationaly even worse than mutalisks). Your bet is that you can have 3-4 cloaked banshees in his base before he has a chance to put down a lot of defences, and while he is teching to lair, or building the spire. If you can take out the spire, and can handle the queens (which are usually 2-4 and split between main and expo), you've pretty much bagged a win.
My usual BO goes like this :
+ Show Spoiler +9 Scouts
10 SD
12 Rax
13 Ref*
15 Marine, balance building until you have 4
16 OC
16 SD (finish the wall), and throughout**
16 Ref (if not up already)
@ 100 Gas
Factory -> TL
Bunker***
2xStarport
Switch TL with factory
TL on 2nd SP
2x Helions -> move out.
2x Banshees + Cloak (and keep pumping banshees, rally them to your first built)
2nd bunker + 4 marines
*<- at this point a drone may be poking your main. If you need to, build a second Refinery (usually at 14, but varies) so as to deny him the gas steal.
**<- build your 3rd and 4th SD spreading to the edges of your base where an overlord may peek. If on a 1v1 map, one at the back of your base might be a good idea. On 2v2 just spread them in the direction where you think an overlord might peek. (Your scouting helps the decision here naturally)
***<- by now you should have 4 marines, put them in the bunker. You want to ideally build your starports immediately after factory finishes, both at the same time. Best case scenario is you have 500 minerals and 400 gas by the time they both finish and you get 2xBanshees + Cloak underway. Might need a little practice but it's doable.
- BLUFF EXPLANATION -
A wall-in with Rax + SD will naturally temp the zerg to go banelings. 2 bunkers and 2 helions + scv's repairing (2 on each side) WILL hold almost everything the zerg can throw at you (or if it doesn't, then he probably doesn't have much in his base and you've won, just lift your CC). Harassing with the 2 helions may bluff the zerg into dropping his anti-air guard slightly, maybe even make him think that you're going Mech. If you can kill a few drones on the expo, then feel free to either pull the helions back or go to the main to get a peek and maybe kill some drones there as well. If the helions die, replace them ASAP, they are crucial to your defence.
- EXECUTION -
Once you have 3-4 banshees (cloak should have finished or be finishing at around this time), attack. Your targets are 1) Spire 2) Queens 3) Lair. If no lair, SCAN the expo (you should scan either way just in case he's building his spire there, or teching that to 2nd lair). If you can kill the spire then you are 80% there to winning the game. Focus on his queens next, with cloak it shouldn't be a problem unless he has a detector in which case you face a problem depending on the number of queens. 4 banshees will 2-shot a queen provided he doesn't heal it. As you get more banshees you'll have less and less of a problem dealing with queens, but remember that time is of the essence, you can't spend it kiting or retreating. A lair still means a spire may pop up and that will seriously mess up your game. If you kill spire + queens then GG. Kill Lair and move over to the expo. Collect win.
As a side note, with 5-6 banshees you can start tearing down the spore crawlers. Select a banshee with full health, click to attack a crawler then attack with the rest of your banshees. The crawler will attack the full healthed banshee and with 5+ banshees on it, it won't kill her. Rinse and repeat, usually you wont need to do this more than twice at worst, just find an opening to attack and exploit it.
- ADAPTATION -
- If he gets SPIRE up, you have a very small window to destroy it and then burn down the lair. It won't stop mutas from coming, but it will at least prevent more from coming for the next few minutes. Stop banshee production, build Engi bay, and start pumping Vikings. Calculate the amount of Mutas coming and pull marines from the bunkers if they're needed (banshees can defend outside the base in case of a bust). If things start to get REALLY hairy, tech to Thors and god be with you.
- If he goes HYDRALISKS, build 4-6 Vikings to snipe the detector and wipe the floor with your cloaked banshees. Zerg will usually be badly irritated by this point. Keep vikings in proximity in case a 2nd detector comes along, and reinforce Viking/Banshee combo as necessary. Aim to finish the game fast.
- If he starts pumping out SPORE CRAWLERS like mad, expand and build moar banshees. A defence spam (and an anti-air at that) will leave a zerg VERY vulnerable to your ground army. So with your excess minerals add a reactor to factory and start pumping out helions. A combo with Banshees, Marines + Helions will probably be adequate to deal with the sea of zerglins/banelings you may encounter, so pull the rines back, let banshees auto attack and micro helions.
- If you scout a 1 base Zerg, your best bet is he's going roaches. Pump 2nd Rax ASAP and try to get at least 1 banshee out (cloak optional) to hold the line. It's doable, and it usually ends the game there.
It's not technically a cheese because even if you lose some banshees you can still put up a defense, but it'll be pretty close. I wish you all best of luck with this build and I'm open to any positive feedback.
Here's a replay, more to follow :
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201131.jpg)
This is arguably a 'best-case' scenario. Zerg probably fell for my 2nd rax.
Even with a gas steal, going for some helions might some times be enough to throw even experienced (1000+ wins) zergs off-balance.
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I sometimes do a banshee rush and wait until I have 4 banshees to move out. If he doesn't scout it, his queen at main will be dead before he can assist with the other one. If i see a spire complete, I usually go for as many drone kills as possible or to aim down the spire if he runs away with his drones.
I also throw down extra raxes during the attack since you will stack minerals by only building banshee and marines and that helps protect against a counter push with muta. I usually transition into mass thors with blue-flamed hellions with marine support.
I have found it to be a good tactic if you do enough damage with your banshees. Otherwise you will have to poke around with them as best as possible and hope for the best  I'm only a diamond player with at best an average apm of 70-80 and I can't handle bio against Zerg :p
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Do you have a replay to share of you demonstrating this at a fairly high level of play? I'm pretty interested.
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Greetings Alexbeav
I have to thub-down this build because:
it's all-in
it's risky
it's cheesy
it's see-through
it's all-in
User was warned for this post
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Replay would be rly nice! I lost to something very similar the other day. You can also deny Zerg scouting by placing 2 marines at the edge of your base, so the Scouting Ovi dies before he sees what he needs to see to survive!
Btw: 4+ Banshees are redicilous hard to stop for Zerg, when the Spire isnt up in time. With proper micro, you can kill the 3 Queens that the normal Zerg has at that time.
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United States15275 Posts
The only thing I would warn you about is letting the scout drone stay in the main for too long. Gas is 16 is extremely suspicious; Gas at 14 is a gigantic flashing sign. You may want to wait until the drone is dead so you have the element of surprise. Your build is suspiciously close to an all-in and you'll need to do damage if you want to win the game.
Also I'd like to hear your contingency plan if Zerg expands in response and throws down lots of spore crawlers at his third as well.
On April 05 2011 06:35 Sagolikt wrote:I sometimes do a banshee rush and wait until I have 4 banshees to move out. If he doesn't scout it, his queen at main will be dead before he can assist with the other one. If i see a spire complete, I usually go for as many drone kills as possible or to aim down the spire if he runs away with his drones. I also throw down extra raxes during the attack since you will stack minerals by only building banshee and marines and that helps protect against a counter push with muta. I usually transition into mass thors with blue-flamed hellions with marine support. I have found it to be a good tactic if you do enough damage with your banshees. Otherwise you will have to poke around with them as best as possible and hope for the best I'm only a diamond player with at best an average apm of 70-80 and I can't handle bio against Zerg :p
You transition from banshee rush to mass thor off one base? Pardon me but that doesn't sound very efficient.
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Thank you for your replies ! (That went smoother than expected.) I will provide a few replays with wins and maybe a couple of losses where I point out my mistakes when I get back home. Keep in mind I'm currently at 40-50 diamond but that's due to a loss streak vs Toss, I'm usually not over 25, will probably go master in a week or two with my current W/L ratio.
CosmicSpiral, if the Zerg expands to 3rd that means I either am at the point where I have 8-9 banshees and w/o spire/hydras I'm unstoppable or he's throwing all his money building an economy I can easily raep. I don't see him building 3rd expo + Spire/Hydras + having enough of an economy to maintain a continuously-pumping army. If all else fails, just harass workers until you bleed him to death. But I strongly recommend just finding an opening and exploiting it to kill lair/hatcheries.
Also, for the gas thing. It may also be possible just to start building it and abandon it while the zerg is in-base simply as a guarding measure against the steal. Waiting until you have 2-3 marines + pulling SCVs will put you back a bit and timing is of the essence. You could also opt to wall in early (while the rax is building) if a drone hasn't arrived at your base yet (in 2v2 maps for example).
And I'm not talking mass thors. 4 are enough to vaporise a large group of mutalisks. I usually just get an engi bay, expand and pop some turrets while I'm building thor/vikings.
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This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over..
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yus - i've done this before but i'd like to see you do it in a game.
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Well I just love banshees and wanted to use them. It's certainly interesting and it certainly works if you deny scouting and can bluff well enough to mislead the zerg into thinking you're going for something else. A 2nd Rax next to your rax should also be fun, of course you don't complete it, but you make the zerg think 'roaches'. 2 base + roaches vs banshees = gg
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A good Zerg can easily detect this cuz:
-You dont have marines
-You have a wall
-You have bunkers
And a good overlord sacrifice, can show all your BO
This BO its ALLin and cheese, i used to this, but i really think this only works until high platinium. Anyways, good micro (3 queens) can easily kill 4 banshees (no cloack). GL
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It's unbelievably frustrating to lose to 3-4 units in your base, when you've macro'd up so well and you have a solid group of units.
It's also really ineffective for Zerg to go straight Lair ---> Hydra for any other strategic reason other than to directly counter your banshees, so they are unlikely to have an answer if they didn't see it coming.
Like I said, you will get a lot of Zerg rage for this build. Especially since Zerg don't really have a unit that can do the same to Terran that early in the game. I can't tell you how many times I've slammed 'gg' before quitting the game after losing to 3-4 cloaked banshees in my main, taking down my hydra den.
It's infuriating. Hopefully this thread isn't read by too many Terran on the NA Diamond ladder ...
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darkzuka you're missing the point, half this build is bluffing to con the zerg into thinking you're going for tanks and deny his scouting, and the other half is HAVING cloak when you reach his base. 4 queens TOGETHER and WITH detection are a problem, but that doesnt mean I can't just ignore them and take out the expo.
Foe91, yep this happens a lot. I rarely if ever stumble upon someone who doesnt rage when facing this build and losing, but hey these guys have baneling bust :D i just wanted to come up with a 'revenge tactic' and since cloaked units are my fav, I modified the 2 port banshee versus terran to work against zerg. I'll post replays later.
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and I can verify thats this build works waaay higher than 'high platinium' 
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We have baneling bust...
But then you lift your buildings, and the very best we can hope for is a draw, as you destroy our base 
If I could find it, I'm sure I have a replay somewhere of my 10-15 roaches and 10 zerglings destroying everything in the terran base only to have him lift his CC and continue to destroy my base with his 2 banshees.
This is not intended to be a whine by any means. The strategy is viable.. and it works.. too well, unfortunately
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It's not technically a cheese because even if you lose some banshees you can still put up a defense, but it'll be pretty close. I wish you all best of luck with this build and I'm open to any positive feedback.
lolwut? you go kinda all-in with no expo so late. If zerg holds it, and i know how i could/would hold it (kinda 40/60 chance) you are behind. No expo even started.
But besides if it wins you alot. I just dont like people play for the short games to win easy. Ofc eveyone does what he likes but for me its just another all-in/cheese/call it whatever you like.
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Yes a base trade is possible, and I've made it happen. I'll dig up the replay, should be amusing. around 6 banshees, 10 vikings and 1 starport playing hide and seek versus mutalisks while banshees go hunting.
but the point of 2 bunkers + 2 helions + scvs repairing is you should not need to base trade.
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On April 05 2011 15:53 Foe91 wrote:
Like I said, you will get a lot of Zerg rage for this build. Especially since Zerg don't really have a unit that can do the same to Terran that early in the game. I can't tell you how many times I've slammed 'gg' before quitting the game after losing to 3-4 cloaked banshees in my main, taking down my hydra den.
As a Zerg player, I can tell you Foe is right on point here. There is nothing that makes me rage more than cloak banshees when I'm unprepared for them. It doesn't matter if your timing wasn't perfect or if you aren't a great player, having 3-4 cloak 'shees when i'm not ready for em and I'll just leave, possibly with some BM on my way towards the Surrender button.
That said, I do think 2-port cloak banshee is a disturbingly powerful build if Z doesn't prepare for it. However, similar to a Protoss going for a 1-base DT rush, if the Zerg figures out/guesses what you are doing, you are pretty much all-in and very far behind. I believe 2-port banshee used to be popular a while ago, and went out of style. I've only had one T player use a 1-base banshee build on me in about my last 20 ZvTs. Definitely a good guide write-up, but I wouldn't suggest it as a go-to strat in all of your TvZs. Especially in any sort of series format, it should work at most once.
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Let me explain how this build is not very strong. First of all as you said a gas steal is likely or if you put a 2nd ref down at 14, yeah, nothing much else to say. Next 2 hellions are incredibly inefficient because they one shot nothing at all and can (or should I say will) get eaten up by speedlings which will proceed to camp your nat or poke at your ramp. If there is further doubt they can sac an overlord into your ramp where they will certainly see your bunker. And no terran will ever bunker his main unless he is teching, and the most obvious thing that terrans ever try to tech for is...
yeah...
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By the way, if you highlight the parts you want to "code out so they can expand it" in your OP and click the little [s] button at the top of the edit box, it will wrap what you'd highlighted in spoiler tags, causing it to show up in your post
[spoiler]like this[/spoiler]
What bothers me most about your strategy here is that it feels like a win granted because the Zerg didn't do something, rather than because you did. It doesn't in any way show you're better than your opponent, it merely shows that without much mobile anti-air, or readily accessible detection, the Zerg is extremely vulnerable to flying DTs.
Like most cheese, it is harder to hold than to perform. Because it is a strategy game, I can't say it's an illegitimate strategy... but if your goal in life is amassing wins vZ in ladder rather than solid play, go nuts!
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@ Staboteur thanks for the spoiler thingy, I'll edit my OP. About the not showing i'm better than my opponent, well there's always this micro thing with banshees. And I use my excess minerals for helions and expo at around the 4th batch of banshees. And it's a strategy game, most of us play for fun. I don't like short matches either, but this strategy is fun, to me, to use and currently that's what i'm looking for in the game.
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On April 05 2011 16:26 Alexbeav wrote:
@ Staboteur thanks for the spoiler thingy, I'll edit my OP. About the not showing i'm better than my opponent, well there's always this micro thing with banshees. And I use my excess minerals for helions and expo at around the 4th batch of banshees. And it's a strategy game, most of us play for fun. I don't like short matches either, but this strategy is fun, to me, to use and currently that's what i'm looking for in the game.
No worries, bro!
I'm not judging, really. I've been working on a nydus roach/ling rush vT and vP that's comical straight up cheese, and makes me rofl in my pants. If I did it every single game, I'd be ashamed of myself... but there's nothing wrong with having a few cheeses up the sleeve, especially if they're responsive/situational cheeses such as yours.
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I don't think this will usually work vs anything but mass speedling/baneling. I've never seen a zerg stay on that army comp long enough vs a 1 base terran for 3 or 4 banshees to come out.
Most of the zergs I face are also pretty wary of actively scouting instead of "oh he walled with depots, lets get mass banelings."
I wouldn't consider this very effective as a solid strategy. This could be used in a Bo7 or something, but definitely not normal gameplay.
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If I see T bunkering up on one base by poking at the ramp with early lings, I'm going to instantly put down my lair and tech, even if I don't get to scout anything with an OL.
Also two hellions without upgrades won't actually do any damage, unless your opponent overreacts and starts making roaches.
I'm sure this will work against some opponents, but 2-port cloaked banshee is an all-in, if he suspects it coming and defends it properly, the chances you can come back are minimal and would have to involve some sort of mistake by him. He can just go speedling+hydra/muta and use cheap lings to deny your expansion for a long time until you actually get enough ground units to push down your ramp, by which time his economic lead will be huge.
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On April 05 2011 15:59 Alexbeav wrote:
darkzuka you're missing the point, half this build is bluffing to con the zerg into thinking you're going for tanks and deny his scouting, and the other half is HAVING cloak when you reach his base. 4 queens TOGETHER and WITH detection are a problem, but that doesnt mean I can't just ignore them and take out the expo.
Foe91, yep this happens a lot. I rarely if ever stumble upon someone who doesnt rage when facing this build and losing, but hey these guys have baneling bust :D i just wanted to come up with a 'revenge tactic' and since cloaked units are my fav, I modified the 2 port banshee versus terran to work against zerg. I'll post replays later.
Revenge tactic very true ? But not NEW; faced this build transition into hellion harass NOW THATS infuriating ... You just defend the bancheese and start droning up and 3-4 hellion come flying in and clean your mineral line up ... F**K Y**U xD just expressing my rage not aimed at you. BTW :D.
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I'd say skip the cloak. Banshees are quite effective vs queens especially early game where the natural isn't connected by creep and your harass is over for the most part when spore crawlers are out any way.
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If I'm pressed and need more banshees fast, then I'd skip the cloak. But usually, it pays off. I'll post a replay to demonstrate.
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On April 05 2011 18:02 Exactable wrote:
I'd say skip the cloak. Banshees are quite effective vs queens especially early game where the natural isn't connected by creep and your harass is over for the most part when spore crawlers are out any way.
i agree. Since you are relying on the zerg to go for ground units ie: roach/ling/bling, why not skip the cloak, research preigniter and go harrass his natural with hellions while your banshees eat his main or keep them back at your base to kite banelings and roast lings while your bunkered marines take care of his roaches?
If he manages to get an overseer out then your cloak is useless and you cant kill the it. In other words, a waste of 200gas. Also i think seeing blue flames will scare a zerg into going more roach heavy.
What do you think? Replay?
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I'm very curious about this build seeing how I have a lot of trouble with Zerg. A few questions:
1) What is the timing that you hit with 4 banshees?
2) When do you throw your CC?
3) Do you constantly make Marines and Hellions even though you're making Banshees?
4) What are the chances of coming back if the build fails?
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Isnt this basiclly this build:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Port_Banshees_(vs._Terran) ?
I would love to see a replay to see the timings on this. It seems to me like the time you attack would be really close to the time the first Mutas spawn. I also dont understand the "trick the zerg" part. Hellions (especially no reactor/blueflame Hellions) always make me think Banshees and a CC/expo makes my mutas stronger (more places to hit + less marines).
How can you actually deny scouting with an Ovi, when your Marines are in a bunker?
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@ meiloAUT yes you are correct it's based on that build, as I mentioned before.
I'll reply to AvengerAzrael when I'm home in a couple of hours and also upload replays then. Patience fellas ! :D
the preigniter upgrade in lieu of the cloak is a good idea, precicely why I posted this build, so it can be improved :D will have to try it on the next no-luck zerg i meat :D (and that was an intentional spelling mistake)
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well this build is really old, and well Im zerg and I lose to it quite a bit. but there is one thing I really like about it: if you hold it and then terran rages about zerg being so easy and he did so much damage and still lost indicating that he just doesnt get that THIS is an all-in that depends on zerg going for the wrong tech
another build in this direction would be building 4 barracks, getting 10-15 marines and throw them at your opponent including all your scvs, as zerg can only hold it with banelings
those kind of builds are making zerg's lives so hard, as they are blind fifty-fifty all-ins
dont get me wrong, this build isn't bad or OP, but once you play high diamond or better you will realise that it is a cross-your-fingers-that-it-is-you-who-wins-build.
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I do something similar feint thingi. Except instead of marines -> hellions -> banshee, I go 2 rax -> pretend expand but tech to 2 ports.
Zerg prepares for a FE from Terran but doesn't see the CC float out at the correct timing and has to crash tech to lair to not die.
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OK I'm a huge noob for asking this but...how do I post a replay ? I don't see the upload option anywhere ? :S
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This build sucks against zergs that actually know what they're doing.
To elaborate:
Due to your lack of pressure, zergs will easily get pure drones with a few lings for scouting and a fast lair. A zerg that sees no expo and no pressure will expect either banshee or a terrible opponent, the response to both is a spore + normal 3 kwueens. (the first letter of that word is broken on my phone keyboard). I don't see how you can possibly disguise such a late banshee attack.
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Hmm yeah.. I feel this build isn't very good at high level. Just being seen by an overlord might cause the loss. It is risky, basically, if you don't kill him with your first banshees, Z will have too big economic advantage.
Like some other people, I'm interested at the timing of your attack though.
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Well I have some pretty good replays, but I dont know how to post/upload !!! should I upload to rapidshare or sth ?
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On April 06 2011 01:00 Alexbeav wrote:
Well I have some pretty good replays, but I dont know how to post/upload !!! should I upload to rapidshare or sth ?
Use Mediafire. Quick and easy ^^
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kk have updated OP with a replay. Will post more. This replay is a "best case" scenario, probably the first one to have gone so well, but then again he probably fell for the 2nd rax xD
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it's all-in
it's risky
it's cheesy
it's see-through
it's all-in
Not sure why you got a warning, since it's a legitimate comment but perhaps stated a bit too bluntly. However, I think you're wrong since it's neither all-in nor see-through. In fact, it's a helluva mindfuck.
Why it's not see-through
+ Show Spoiler +
- On some maps it's simply impossible to OL sac scout either because of the number of places you can hide your tech in or the ability to quickly spot the OL and use a couple of marines to take him down.
- If my OL gets sniped down by just a couple of marines, sure, I'll know "hmm this guy is teching up for something sneaky". This is where the mindfucking begins - anyone that plays zerg can tell you that this moment right here is probably the only rock paper scissor in Starcraft (even build order "wins" and early cheese can be scouted with an early worker). If you gear up for cloaked banshees and he goes BFH you're f'ed. If you gear up for mech and pump roaches you're f'ed. It's a guessing game, so definitely not see-through.
Why it's not all-in:
+ Show Spoiler + - Everyone has his own definition of all-in, but I think most can agree it's either a do or die tactic that leaves you without units and the possibility of regrouping or puts you so far behind that everything goes downhill from there (these are the "you need to do significant damage" types of all ins like 6-pool, mass cannons against zerg, proxies, etc).
- Cloaked banshee is not an all-in resource wise thanks to the awesomenessness of MULES (you can at least get some quick bunkers up if it fails)
- Cloaked banshee does not leave you unit-less like a mass cannon into void rays tactic
Why it's not (as) risky as some would say:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Every tactic in SC2 has a risk-reward duality. Speedling into expand is a low-risk low-reward build order, whereas something like marine-SCV is high risk high reward. Tactics like hidden pylons in PvP are low risk (you lose some minerals and perhaps a few seconds of supply block) and high reward (if you get away with it it's gg for the other guy).
- I'd say cloaked banshees are somewhere along the low risk high reward line. Yes, it's a big gas investment. Yes, banshees are not as useful after the timing window has passed. Yes it delays your expo but you don't expose yourself that badly as to have you insta-lose the game if you fail to do "significant damage". As for the reward? Please, if you're on the winning side of the rock-paper-scissor game against the zerg, he's dead regardless of his APM/skill/decision making/micro.
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I don't understand... isn't this the standard 2 port banshee? what's the diff?
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Whenever a terran frantically denies scouting I usually go build more queens and 1-2 Overseers (or just Evo+ 1 Spore at each base) and when I feel safer or managed to survive until overlord speed decide on a more definite tech path.
This basically really sounds like 2 port banshee. Hellion tech route isn't that effective when Zerg has more queens and possible 1-2 Spinecrawlers as well, so I suppose this should let you survice for a while.
I agree it's a very annoying build and sometimes hard to hold though.
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The issue I have with this build is it is very much an I hope he doesn't notice build. You will do huge damage to the zerg if he doesn't notice that you're not expanding or putting pressure on him and he either expands without getting detection or tries and fails to bust your ramp. However, what you're planning is fairly transparent, and if the zerg does catch on, you're basically dead. I don't think this typically smells like one-base tanks, as a tank push would need a lot of marines to back it up, and this build has a very low marine count. In addition, this same low marine count makes it very easy to suicide an overlord into your main to determine your tech path, so again, you're hoping the zerg doesn't see it.
A low infantry count, (only 4 marines?) no expo, and bunker at the front fairly well SCREAM
shenannigans from a terran, (actually as soon as a terran puts his bunker up on the ramp it's typically a sign of either fast medivac or fast banshee play) and this is quite holdable off of 2 base without getting fast mutas or hydras. With 1/2 spores in each mineral line and 3 queens to start (queue up one more from each hatch once you see the banshees moving out, which you will with good overlord spread) this attack will basically be crushed and leave you significantly behind.
From that point, unless you manage to kill a significant number of drones (and it will have to be very signfiicant - lack of pressure means the zerg will probably have been spamming the D key like it was their job) you are way behind. The zerg will have at least one expo on you, and from there there are a number of ways to either starve you out or straight-up kill you. No matter what you do, you will have invested a significant amount of money in tech that didn't pay off, and you will simply not have enough units to hold.
Your hydra adaptation is also incorrect. A zerg who sniffs fast banshees is not going to rush for overseers - they're gas-starved as it is. They're going to get spore crawlers, just one or two, and if they do produce just two or three hydras, then that + the queens is going to crush this attack. If you WERE to wait for that many vikings coming out, this differential would only increase.
Edit: For a little more in depth discussion of timings, consult this marvelous thread. You can pop 4 cloaked banshees at about 8:16. On close air (where this is most dangerous - less time for a zerg to react) they can hit the zerg's base by probably 8:30ish, depending on the map. Conversely, a zerg can have his 3rd queen down before the 7 minute mark, and will have his evo around then as well.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 05 2011 15:31 Alexbeav wrote:
Thank you for your replies ! (That went smoother than expected.) I will provide a few replays with wins and maybe a couple of losses where I point out my mistakes when I get back home. Keep in mind I'm currently at 40-50 diamond but that's due to a loss streak vs Toss, I'm usually not over 25, will probably go master in a week or two with my current W/L ratio.
CosmicSpiral, if the Zerg expands to 3rd that means I either am at the point where I have 8-9 banshees and w/o spire/hydras I'm unstoppable or he's throwing all his money building an economy I can easily raep. I don't see him building 3rd expo + Spire/Hydras + having enough of an economy to maintain a continuously-pumping army. If all else fails, just harass workers until you bleed him to death. But I strongly recommend just finding an opening and exploiting it to kill lair/hatcheries.
Also, for the gas thing. It may also be possible just to start building it and abandon it while the zerg is in-base simply as a guarding measure against the steal. Waiting until you have 2-3 marines + pulling SCVs will put you back a bit and timing is of the essence. You could also opt to wall in early (while the rax is building) if a drone hasn't arrived at your base yet (in 2v2 maps for example).
And I'm not talking mass thors. 4 are enough to vaporise a large group of mutalisks. I usually just get an engi bay, expand and pop some turrets while I'm building thor/vikings.
Well, just from my perspective, I throw down Spore Crawlers whenever I sniff out a rush to banshee. They automatically reveal banshees for my queens to focus-fire, possess a ton of hitpoints, cost no gas, and fire just as fast as hydras but with more attack damage. Mutas or hydras don't mean anything without detection plus they're both gas-heavy, incredibly fragile, incredibly predictable and incredibly weak as a defensive precaution. So I'm not going to build a spire or a hydra den. If anything if I tech up to lair I'll go for an infestor pit. But since most Zergs will attempt to tech up or spam queen production to deal with it (it just seems that people don't want to make spore crawlers for AA defense), I don't think you need so many banshees to force that tech switch. You could cut a banshee or two to research Stim/Combat Shield/Pre-Igniter for a marine-hellion push once the Zerg makes too many Queens/Spore Crawlers/Hydralisks/Mutas.
If you built the Refinery simply to stop the Zerg from taking it, that's pretty revealing as well. It shows you need that geyser for something.
If I do go for a third it would be a sneaky one.
Also, I'd advice you to lose the bunker. A bunker down next to the ramp indicates an upcoming expansion, but a bunker protecting the top of the ramp tells me a committed tech switch. It becomes too obvious that you'll looking to survive until your tech switch completes.
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Canada4413 Posts
Ive been doing this since beta, and Im finding alot of zergs are just blindy putting down a spore crawler to try and prevent banshees.
That said what ive done instead is tech straight to BCS' push when i have about 8 hellions, 6 marines, and 2 bcs, pull some scvs for repair.
If he has banelings you are in trouble because eventually he will overwhelm you, but if you properly control your hellions you should be able to kill them and bring your scvs in after to repair. I always get yamato so I can kill the queens that can transfuse.
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After seeing your replay, i am quite sure it will stop working at a gold/platinum level (EU).
Your opponent didnt scout AT ALL and your banshees hit him around the 9:00 - 9:30 minute mark.
He had t2 tech and he had an evo chamber... he had not even connected main and natural... after 9 minutes
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On April 06 2011 01:28 Tudi wrote:Not sure why you got a warning, since it's a legitimate comment but perhaps stated a bit too bluntly. However, I think you're wrong since it's neither all-in nor see-through. In fact, it's a helluva mindfuck. Why it's not see-through + Show Spoiler +
- On some maps it's simply impossible to OL sac scout either because of the number of places you can hide your tech in or the ability to quickly spot the OL and use a couple of marines to take him down.
- If my OL gets sniped down by just a couple of marines, sure, I'll know "hmm this guy is teching up for something sneaky". This is where the mindfucking begins - anyone that plays zerg can tell you that this moment right here is probably the only rock paper scissor in Starcraft (even build order "wins" and early cheese can be scouted with an early worker). If you gear up for cloaked banshees and he goes BFH you're f'ed. If you gear up for mech and pump roaches you're f'ed. It's a guessing game, so definitely not see-through.
Why it's not all-in: + Show Spoiler + - Everyone has his own definition of all-in, but I think most can agree it's either a do or die tactic that leaves you without units and the possibility of regrouping or puts you so far behind that everything goes downhill from there (these are the "you need to do significant damage" types of all ins like 6-pool, mass cannons against zerg, proxies, etc).
- Cloaked banshee is not an all-in resource wise thanks to the awesomenessness of MULES (you can at least get some quick bunkers up if it fails)
- Cloaked banshee does not leave you unit-less like a mass cannon into void rays tactic Why it's not (as) risky as some would say: + Show Spoiler +
- Every tactic in SC2 has a risk-reward duality. Speedling into expand is a low-risk low-reward build order, whereas something like marine-SCV is high risk high reward. Tactics like hidden pylons in PvP are low risk (you lose some minerals and perhaps a few seconds of supply block) and high reward (if you get away with it it's gg for the other guy).
- I'd say cloaked banshees are somewhere along the low risk high reward line. Yes, it's a big gas investment. Yes, banshees are not as useful after the timing window has passed. Yes it delays your expo but you don't expose yourself that badly as to have you insta-lose the game if you fail to do "significant damage". As for the reward? Please, if you're on the winning side of the rock-paper-scissor game against the zerg, he's dead regardless of his APM/skill/decision making/micro.
The warn was for "not contributing nor putting enough effort". I am guilty as charged and not excluding the possibility of recidivism when confronted to other topics such as this one.
Seeing not only one-basing but cheesy one-basing promoted as strategy never gets the best of me because instead of enjoying the game evolving it feels as if i'm back in prehistoric beta or 1.0 release.
2 starport opening is a huge all-in, covering all the situations ranging from the all-inner being screwed immediately to the all-inner being screwed in the long game.
For some reason many TvZs where Zergs win, say, a 30 min game, appear balanced for the full 30 min, when in reality the game is won or lost in the first 12 (3rd kicking in or getting denied). You have 0 chances of denying 3rd with this opening. Not to mention you can't even secure your own natural.
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What key clues can zerg look for to try to identify the difference between a (blue) hellion opening and 2-port?
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Its fun to see most of the cheese and all in's I have been using for months.. get posted and debated lol. I stoped doing this as im rank 1 diamond playing masters alot and they do sniff this kinda play out 9 out of 10 games 
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a lot of the times when i go for mech and deny the zerg scouting, the zerg will put down a few precautionary spore crawlers, however i mass about 10 hellions with blue flame and ravage the drone lines. Zerg rages. hard to follow up however. Its pretty much all in. if your hellions fail but still do descent amount of damage,you can still move out with a thor and a few marines with hellion support ahnd hope for the best. Also expand and throw down 3 more rax and hope you dont get swarmed by bling mutas. at this point you will be behind greatly and will probably only win if zerg screws up and miss micros theyre banelings
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a lot of the times when i go for mech and deny the zerg scouting, the zerg will put down a few precautionary spore crawlers, however i mass about 10 hellions with blue flame and ravage the drone lines. Zerg rages. hard to follow up however.
Case in point. If you deny scouting, which you should be able to do with 100% precision, the zerg is left guessing for one of the two major (semi)all-ins you can do - BFH and Cloaked Banshees. I don't see a middle-ground strategy that would work well defending against both of them. Maybe cutting gas and drone and just focusing on getting mass queens out but besides the resource issue (you will NOT have enough resources and time to both mass queen and throw down spores or tech to lair and overseers) this really isn't a tactical decision based on skill, it's more like forcing a pair of scissors to cut through both paper and rock.
What key clues can zerg look for to try to identify the difference between a (blue) hellion opening and 2-port?
Nothing. You might be able to get some overlords around his base and spot the banshees leaving for yours earlier, or you could scout the front and see the hellions leave for the push (and also sac your scouting ling to see if they're blue flame or not, which makes a huge difference in how you respond really).
P.S. I'm sorry if I sound like your average whiney zerg, I promise I'm the Grand Defender of "Zerg is not UP" in most threads but anything related to early-game scouting gets me going since this is the only flaw I currently see in zerg balance.
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On April 05 2011 05:57 Alexbeav wrote:
Harassing with the 2 helions may bluff the zerg into dropping his anti-air guard slightly, maybe even make him think that you're going Mech.
All seeing hellions makes me think is that you have at least factory tech. Since I scout early I almost assuredly saw you take both gas. A one basing terran on two gas throwing hellions at me makes me think:
1) 1/2 port banshee w/ cloak
2) Blue flame hellion drops.
A spinecrawler or two, good overlord placement and paying attention will make hellion drops manageable, at that point I only have one thing to really worry about.
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I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
by 'cut scv's at 18' you mean 18 @ minerals + 6 on gas right ? This looks good, will try it when I get back home (and post those replays I've been promising)
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:
I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
Could you show us some replays?
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if terrans turtle so hard to an extant they build 2 bunkers and scvs repairing, i would either guess:
-BC
-Thors
or
-Banshee rush
so that's when zergs throw down evo chamber and start making queens
If terran makes 2 bunkers, this is what i think. "He really must not want to get baneling busted cuz if he does, he won't have any units to counter my mass lings."
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i tried it without bunkers too, since helions and scvs repairing pretty much hold the wall
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Cool stuff. My TvZ is terribad, so I would love to try this out. The only thing I would add is a cool tactic I saw Hashe use: He brings 1 scv to an expo near the enemies base and puts it on auto-repair. The way he uses banshees, he doesn't try to end the game, so after he does some banshee harass, he brings them to the SCV and lets it repair. In this case, it takes a long time to repair, so it might no be the best idea. Perhaps just bring banshees that are very low on health there.
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On April 06 2011 00:27 Pokebunny wrote:
This build sucks against zergs that actually know what they're doing.
To elaborate:
Due to your lack of pressure, zergs will easily get pure drones with a few lings for scouting and a fast lair. A zerg that sees no expo and no pressure will expect either banshee or a terrible opponent, the response to both is a spore + normal 3 kwueens. (the first letter of that word is broken on my phone keyboard). I don't see how you can possibly disguise such a late banshee attack.
So true.... and also good zergs know the timing for marine+hellion arrasment or marine+tanks arrasments. So your enemy will know for sure the you going for banshees. And when the mutas are out... its pretty much GG, cuz the zerg can rape so easily your base or can outmacro you so easily...
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I have done this alot in diamond and it works wonders. There are several things you can do to make this a lot harder for Zerg to notice.
- Take the gas closest to ramp if he can see the gas by running up your ramp. Or take the gas that is most likely to be scouted by an OL.
- Building an extra barrack will only delay your 4 banshees slightly, will give you a lot more marines for counter pushes and might throw the Zerg off guard (thinking that you aren't actually teching). You will also have some extra gas to throw down tech-lab / reactor on the barracks.
- Building a reactor with your barrack and swapping it with your factory to get 4 (not 2) hellions out early. It will as well delay your banshee rush slightly but will do a lot more damage than 2 hellions and if you dont sacrifise them, the Zerg might expect blue-flamed hellions instead of banshees and might go roaches to counter it.
Mind games plays a huge role in SC2 and even if your regular BO is a bit late, what a win that is if you sucessfully makes your opponent believe you are going something else...
- 1 spore /base doesnt do it for Zerg since 4 banshees and an additional 2 incomming will do huge damage to everything that is out of range of the spores.
- Building hydras is an alternative but also not the best unit for Terran otherwise so he is investing a lot to get those out, just as you did to get the banshees out.
I have found this to pay off very well. Even if it doesn't end the Zerg and he manage to defend, I will probably have a lead in both income and tech at that point. I will lack an expansion but he will have low drone count. The Zerg will try to drone up while I take my natural and he takes his 3rd base. So worst case scenarios for me have been an even match afterwards and in very few cases I might have been slightly behind, but I can't really remember that.
Edit: I should add that I always tech switch if I'm sure the Zerg is prepared, but I assume that's obvious.
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:
I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
Eh sounds risky as in this is a one base strat. How are you goning to support thors on it?
also magic box?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Two possible responses you don't deal with the OP that I'd like to hear about:
1) Redundant queens with 1 spore (or overseer) at each base for detection. Transfuses make queens very difficult to destroy.
2) Infestors. Infestation Pit comes up much quicker than spire, and with burrow and fungal growth, combined with redundant queens, you'll find yourself revealed etc.
Banshee harass is good ladder play against many zerg players, but against timing attacks that come before cloak banshee timing (Roach rush in particular) you'll struggle, as well as against a zerg player who reacts calmly and gets AA and detection in the form of infestors.
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The first thing I think about when going FE and seeing a bunker in a 1 base Terran is banshee.
Them I overlord sac just to make sure.
If I see nothing, then I'll be 100% sure it is cloaked banshees.
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On April 07 2011 08:43 Sagolikt wrote:
I have done this alot in diamond and it works wonders. There are several things you can do to make this a lot harder for Zerg to notice.
As a diamond player myself, I can tell you that basing "most people don't see this coming" off of what they do in diamond is not a good idea. I still get away with fast DTs against basically every terran, no matter how glaringly obvious it is every single time. Something isn't reliably safe against decent game sense until you can pull it off in high masters, I think.
Mind games plays a huge role in SC2 and even if your regular BO is a bit late, what a win that is if you sucessfully makes your opponent believe you are going something else...
- 1 spore /base doesnt do it for Zerg since 4 banshees and an additional 2 incomming will do huge damage to everything that is out of range of the spores.
- Building hydras is an alternative but also not the best unit for Terran otherwise so he is investing a lot to get those out, just as you did to get the banshees out.
1 spore/base + 3 queens (standard for 2 basing zerg) will hold 4 banshees with competent queen micro and transfuse. The spores are for detection, not damage. In addition, a zerg with good overlord placement will see them moving out and throw down one extra spore/base, and/or one extra queen/base. They'll pop before you get there except on close air. Minimal cost to the zerg, big cost to you. He won't throw down a hydra den. If anything his spire will be basically out, and when it pops, kiss your attack goodbye.
I have found this to pay off very well. Even if it doesn't end the Zerg and he manage to defend, I will probably have a lead in both income and tech at that point. I will lack an expansion but he will have low drone count. The Zerg will try to drone up while I take my natural and he takes his 3rd base. So worst case scenarios for me have been an even match afterwards and in very few cases I might have been slightly behind, but I can't really remember that.
This is the crux of the problem I see with this build. Even if you do good damage, the bigger issue is that you've got no mech, no medivacs, and no stim. In short, you have no real way to apply pressure to the zerg, and you won't for quite a while. To put it another way, Even if you kill a ton of drones, you won't be able to follow it up, and the zerg is going to take his 3rd and then giggle as he holds down the D key.
This early in the game, it is more important to maintain constant pressure on a zerg than to do a bunch of damage at once, unless that damage is really crippling. Later in the game this is not so important, as your production and options will be less limited as your number of unit producing structures grows, but early in the game, if you sacrifice a lot of units to kill a lot of drones, it's not necessarily an even trade if you can't follow it up with regular pressure.
If you kill over half of a zerg's drones with this attack, it is probably worth it. If the 4 banshees get 10 or 20 drone kills between them, and then die or are forced back by queens, you are WAY behind, not in economy, but because of what I mentioned about pressure.
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And this is why zergs should steal the gas. 2port Banshees on 1 base is not supportable on only one gas: fact.
If Terran still tries to go ahead with this build, his banshees will be late enough to allow zerg to build defenses.
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"A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust, instead of going, for example, hydralisks."
credibility!
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I find banshee rushes (of any variation) do terribly against zerg who opt for a fast 4 queens (for creep spread and transfuse, as well as to keep a few on the ramp to block hellions)
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair? Once he actually sees the banshees more queens and spores are going to be made, is there any strong transition or do you have to do something drastic to kill the zerg or risk being too far behind?
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On April 08 2011 07:21 Triss_Teh wrote:
And this is why zergs should steal the gas. 2port Banshees on 1 base is not supportable on only one gas: fact.
Stealing gas is not advisable every game. About the only timing it hurts is the aformentioned 2 port banshee, in all other situations it just puts you down a drone & 25 minerals (more if you build/cancel). Not the greatest option for the race that lives & dies off early drone production.
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On April 08 2011 07:50 VictorX wrote:
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair?
You respond with pretty much any other timing attack or by taking a third because the zerg has spent ridiculous amounts on static defense & queens. Your suggestion is ideal if you were omniscient and knew the attack was coming. As a general build though it's not ithe greatest..
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On April 08 2011 09:19 Oceaniax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 07:50 VictorX wrote:
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair? You respond with pretty much any other timing attack or by taking a third because the zerg has spent ridiculous amounts on static defense & queens. Your suggestion is ideal if you were omniscient and knew the attack was coming. As a general build though it's not ithe greatest..
And what timing attack could you do? You have maybe 9-15 marines, no stim, no medivacs. And before you take your 3rd, you have to take your nat, which you also haven't done yet.
Also "observant" =/= "omniscient." As has been previously stated, a banshee attack is not hard to sniff from a terran.
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Can you tell us your league please?
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High diamond, aiming masters this weekend hopefully
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I don't understand the point of this thread when this build has been around since beta, and you don't exactly offer anything new to it.
It has hellion harass, cool. Everything that isn't a 2port hard banshee build is going to open with hellion harass, and when your zerg opponent scouts your base with his overlord and sees you have no units killing his OL and you have a tech lab on your port, he's going to know exactly what's up. If he made units, he'll attack and kill you. If he didn't make units and he macro'd hard, he'll have ample time to make a few more queens.
Again, I don't really understand why you made this guide, as this has been around for as long as beta has been around, and you don't offer anything different.
You basically hope that the player isn't going to be aggressive, and if he is, you hope that he doesn't scout your base and respond to the banshees.
This is a decent, but old and well-known strategy, and you offer nothing new.
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On April 05 2011 15:38 Foe91 wrote:
This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over..
how will u see 2nd gas??
unless u steal it no way
how will u know that he is doing banshe rush or not maybe 3 tank push cause what u described to your response to early 2nd gas would kill u if he goes 3 tank like i ussually do with early 2nd refinery
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On April 09 2011 15:40 Rexar123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 15:38 Foe91 wrote:
This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over.. how will u see 2nd gas?? unless u steal it no way how will u know that he is doing banshe rush or not maybe 3 tank push cause what u described to your response to early 2nd gas would kill u if he goes 3 tank like i ussually do with early 2nd refinery
It's an old and bad "strategy", just let it die already.
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i dont do this strat, it sucks
but how are so u confident??
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It's a timing thing, even assuming that zerg doesn't have an overlord in position to sack into your base they'll see that you haven't expanded which means banshees or some other kind of all-in (mass blue flame, scvs + 20 or so marines etc). All the zerg has to do is make roaches, 2-3 extra queens and spores and it's very unlikely that any all-in will kill the zerg meanwhile the lack of an expansion will mean that as soon as the terran attack fails the zerg can crush them with a vastly superior econ and production. Not to mention that if I as zerg scout a terran that went two gases I'm expecting banshee (or a feint). If you delay until my scouting drone is dead than it delays the allin even more.
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As much as 2-port cloak banshee can be hard for Z to deal with and completely devastating if the Z has no idea it's coming, the OP is making a lot of wrong assumptions:
1) If the zerg scouting drone sees an early gas, your 2nd gas will be stolen and your banshee push is now vastly delayed.
2) If a Zerg sees early helions, it will tell him you have only 2 potential followups off 1 base: banshees or tanks
3) If a Zerg sees a 1 base Terran behind a bunker, the Z will nearly always assume banshees.
4) "A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust" this is based on what exactly?
Additionally, a good zerg will not rush to lair/spire if double port banshees are suspected, instead he will put up 2 spores per base and go up to 4 queens, since 2 queens can also be used to block the ramp should the terran go blueflame helions instead of the banshees.
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Yeah, I don't think this is that strong. I think you're playing at a level where lots of Zergs baneling bust, but step up a level and Zergs simply don't bust that often. I know, because I play Terran and Zerg at such a level. My Terran is lower than my Zerg, and baneling busts are extremely common. But when I play Zerg, I simply don't bust as a general strategy because it's a timing window that shuts pretty quickly and is by its nature pretty risky
But I'll reiterate what many posters have already said: this strategy is not solid. There's far too many ways to read that this is happening and consequently fend off this push easily. The early second gas, the bunker(s) at the ramp, the lack of units, and an Overlord scout that sees the Starport + Tech Lab are all key indicators of such a build. Banshee is the automatic assumption if a bunker is placed on one-base, but even if the Zerg doesn't scout this or the Starports (very unlikely against decent Zergs who poke up the ramp with Zerglings), the early gas is far too much of a giveaway. Such an early gas means blue-flame or Banshee, and the response to both are extra Queens. When your push comes and your opponent has 4 or 6 Queens w/Transfuse and you kill almost nothing, you lose. No ifs or buts about it, if you don't kill Drones with the Banshees you simply lose. You have no economy and no ground tech whatsoever, so the Zerg can proceed to tech and macro to whatever they want and roll you over since you have no ability to pressure them once Lair tech is out.
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I don't usually post on strategy. But this topic could really mislead newer players into really poor play. I think it should be removed. In fact I'd be willing to post my version of a banshee opening that actually wins if this is removed for the greater good ;p.
A zerg that FE's has nothing to do with a baneling bust. Those are separate concepts and in fact a 1 base zerg is much more likely to baneling bust initially at higher levels.
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On April 11 2011 00:21 azarat wrote:
Yeah, I don't think this is that strong. I think you're playing at a level where lots of Zergs baneling bust, but step up a level and Zergs simply don't bust that often. I know, because I play Terran and Zerg at such a level. My Terran is lower than my Zerg, and baneling busts are extremely common. But when I play Zerg, I simply don't bust as a general strategy because it's a timing window that shuts pretty quickly and is by its nature pretty risky
But I'll reiterate what many posters have already said: this strategy is not solid. There's far too many ways to read that this is happening and consequently fend off this push easily. The early second gas, the bunker(s) at the ramp, the lack of units, and an Overlord scout that sees the Starport + Tech Lab are all key indicators of such a build. Banshee is the automatic assumption if a bunker is placed on one-base, but even if the Zerg doesn't scout this or the Starports (very unlikely against decent Zergs who poke up the ramp with Zerglings), the early gas is far too much of a giveaway. Such an early gas means blue-flame or Banshee, and the response to both are extra Queens. When your push comes and your opponent has 4 or 6 Queens w/Transfuse and you kill almost nothing, you lose. No ifs or buts about it, if you don't kill Drones with the Banshees you simply lose. You have no economy and no ground tech whatsoever, so the Zerg can proceed to tech and macro to whatever they want and roll you over since you have no ability to pressure them once Lair tech is out.
hes right. to use this kind of strategie as your normal BO cant be solid. good zergs will scout that you are about to do shenanigans with factory or/and starport and immediately start queen production...
when im laddering i always love terrans that try this kind of stuff because if its not doing significant damage you are so far ahead.
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Zerg here,
Don't want to sound brash, but, why don't you just bunker rush? Seems like a much better "cheap" way to win. Plus, 2raxing puts you at an unbelievable economy advantage even if you do slight damage with your push.
If I was confronted with your build (it's easy to tell when a terran is going for some cheesy play, they just sit on one base) I just mass banelings, bust your wall, and win. With a few spores and an extra queen at home, of course.
Just does not seem like a solid strategy to me.
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I watched the first replay vs. Amnesiac through the 10 minute mark, at which point you clearly had the game won.
You had 4 banshees in his base at the 9:21 mark, without cloak. This suggests that alternatively you could have had 2 banshees with cloak in by the same point, given the gas cost of cloak. (Also that's my experience with cloaked banshees.)
As prior posters have pointed out, a properly prepared zerg can take this down with 4 queens. I think 4 queens is pretty common at that point in the game, and I agree that a bunker at the front causes all good zergs to prepare for banshees.
So, given that the success of rushed banshees depends on whether or not the zerg is prepared, how is this strategy superior to 2 cloaked banshees out of one starport? If the zerg has detection and queens, under both builds you have to retreat your banshees. If the zerg isn't prepared, it's probably gg under either build.
You're not getting four cloaked banshees in until quite a bit later than 9:21, at which point if you are still off one base... well then all the people who said this is all-in are correct.
Here's a youtube of Thisisjimmy executing two rushed cloaked banshees against Spanishiwa, for comparison as a strategy. It includes some commentary by Thisisjimmy.
Thisisjimmy v. Spanishiwa (banshees)
I guess given the foregoing I think this build is not a good idea. I'm open to being told I'm wrong, however.
EDIT for grammar.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-201928.jpg)
