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On April 06 2011 00:27 Pokebunny wrote:
This build sucks against zergs that actually know what they're doing.
To elaborate:
Due to your lack of pressure, zergs will easily get pure drones with a few lings for scouting and a fast lair. A zerg that sees no expo and no pressure will expect either banshee or a terrible opponent, the response to both is a spore + normal 3 kwueens. (the first letter of that word is broken on my phone keyboard). I don't see how you can possibly disguise such a late banshee attack.
So true.... and also good zergs know the timing for marine+hellion arrasment or marine+tanks arrasments. So your enemy will know for sure the you going for banshees. And when the mutas are out... its pretty much GG, cuz the zerg can rape so easily your base or can outmacro you so easily...
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I have done this alot in diamond and it works wonders. There are several things you can do to make this a lot harder for Zerg to notice.
- Take the gas closest to ramp if he can see the gas by running up your ramp. Or take the gas that is most likely to be scouted by an OL.
- Building an extra barrack will only delay your 4 banshees slightly, will give you a lot more marines for counter pushes and might throw the Zerg off guard (thinking that you aren't actually teching). You will also have some extra gas to throw down tech-lab / reactor on the barracks.
- Building a reactor with your barrack and swapping it with your factory to get 4 (not 2) hellions out early. It will as well delay your banshee rush slightly but will do a lot more damage than 2 hellions and if you dont sacrifise them, the Zerg might expect blue-flamed hellions instead of banshees and might go roaches to counter it.
Mind games plays a huge role in SC2 and even if your regular BO is a bit late, what a win that is if you sucessfully makes your opponent believe you are going something else...
- 1 spore /base doesnt do it for Zerg since 4 banshees and an additional 2 incomming will do huge damage to everything that is out of range of the spores.
- Building hydras is an alternative but also not the best unit for Terran otherwise so he is investing a lot to get those out, just as you did to get the banshees out.
I have found this to pay off very well. Even if it doesn't end the Zerg and he manage to defend, I will probably have a lead in both income and tech at that point. I will lack an expansion but he will have low drone count. The Zerg will try to drone up while I take my natural and he takes his 3rd base. So worst case scenarios for me have been an even match afterwards and in very few cases I might have been slightly behind, but I can't really remember that.
Edit: I should add that I always tech switch if I'm sure the Zerg is prepared, but I assume that's obvious.
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On April 06 2011 08:56 BridgesOut wrote:
I feel like my build is much stronger but does the same thing and is less all in.
Here it is
10 supply
11 gas
13 rax
15Oribital
16marine
17factory
18reactor on rax
18 depot
19 gas
cut scv's at 18, use marine to kill overlord or guard front
swap reactor on factory, build two helions
starport
tech lab on rax
2 more helions
Swap tech lab on rax with starport. Make a banshee and research cloak instantly.
Harass with 4 helions, don't let them die
Follow up with 2 cloaked banshees around the 7 minute mark. Snipe 1 queen then split them on each mineral line, rallying more banshees
*This forces mutas.
Throw down an OC
Build 2 more raxes
Build an armory and tech switch your factory with the starport
Start making dual dropships and a thor, as well as mass marines.
Push out with 2 thors, engage his mutas, and GG
Beat many masters zergs with this easy 2 base strategy. Sorry for not being super specific with the details (food count).
Eh sounds risky as in this is a one base strat. How are you goning to support thors on it?
also magic box?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Two possible responses you don't deal with the OP that I'd like to hear about:
1) Redundant queens with 1 spore (or overseer) at each base for detection. Transfuses make queens very difficult to destroy.
2) Infestors. Infestation Pit comes up much quicker than spire, and with burrow and fungal growth, combined with redundant queens, you'll find yourself revealed etc.
Banshee harass is good ladder play against many zerg players, but against timing attacks that come before cloak banshee timing (Roach rush in particular) you'll struggle, as well as against a zerg player who reacts calmly and gets AA and detection in the form of infestors.
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The first thing I think about when going FE and seeing a bunker in a 1 base Terran is banshee.
Them I overlord sac just to make sure.
If I see nothing, then I'll be 100% sure it is cloaked banshees.
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On April 07 2011 08:43 Sagolikt wrote:
I have done this alot in diamond and it works wonders. There are several things you can do to make this a lot harder for Zerg to notice.
As a diamond player myself, I can tell you that basing "most people don't see this coming" off of what they do in diamond is not a good idea. I still get away with fast DTs against basically every terran, no matter how glaringly obvious it is every single time. Something isn't reliably safe against decent game sense until you can pull it off in high masters, I think.
Mind games plays a huge role in SC2 and even if your regular BO is a bit late, what a win that is if you sucessfully makes your opponent believe you are going something else...
- 1 spore /base doesnt do it for Zerg since 4 banshees and an additional 2 incomming will do huge damage to everything that is out of range of the spores.
- Building hydras is an alternative but also not the best unit for Terran otherwise so he is investing a lot to get those out, just as you did to get the banshees out.
1 spore/base + 3 queens (standard for 2 basing zerg) will hold 4 banshees with competent queen micro and transfuse. The spores are for detection, not damage. In addition, a zerg with good overlord placement will see them moving out and throw down one extra spore/base, and/or one extra queen/base. They'll pop before you get there except on close air. Minimal cost to the zerg, big cost to you. He won't throw down a hydra den. If anything his spire will be basically out, and when it pops, kiss your attack goodbye.
I have found this to pay off very well. Even if it doesn't end the Zerg and he manage to defend, I will probably have a lead in both income and tech at that point. I will lack an expansion but he will have low drone count. The Zerg will try to drone up while I take my natural and he takes his 3rd base. So worst case scenarios for me have been an even match afterwards and in very few cases I might have been slightly behind, but I can't really remember that.
This is the crux of the problem I see with this build. Even if you do good damage, the bigger issue is that you've got no mech, no medivacs, and no stim. In short, you have no real way to apply pressure to the zerg, and you won't for quite a while. To put it another way, Even if you kill a ton of drones, you won't be able to follow it up, and the zerg is going to take his 3rd and then giggle as he holds down the D key.
This early in the game, it is more important to maintain constant pressure on a zerg than to do a bunch of damage at once, unless that damage is really crippling. Later in the game this is not so important, as your production and options will be less limited as your number of unit producing structures grows, but early in the game, if you sacrifice a lot of units to kill a lot of drones, it's not necessarily an even trade if you can't follow it up with regular pressure.
If you kill over half of a zerg's drones with this attack, it is probably worth it. If the 4 banshees get 10 or 20 drone kills between them, and then die or are forced back by queens, you are WAY behind, not in economy, but because of what I mentioned about pressure.
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And this is why zergs should steal the gas. 2port Banshees on 1 base is not supportable on only one gas: fact.
If Terran still tries to go ahead with this build, his banshees will be late enough to allow zerg to build defenses.
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"A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust, instead of going, for example, hydralisks."
credibility!
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I find banshee rushes (of any variation) do terribly against zerg who opt for a fast 4 queens (for creep spread and transfuse, as well as to keep a few on the ramp to block hellions)
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair? Once he actually sees the banshees more queens and spores are going to be made, is there any strong transition or do you have to do something drastic to kill the zerg or risk being too far behind?
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On April 08 2011 07:21 Triss_Teh wrote:
And this is why zergs should steal the gas. 2port Banshees on 1 base is not supportable on only one gas: fact.
Stealing gas is not advisable every game. About the only timing it hurts is the aformentioned 2 port banshee, in all other situations it just puts you down a drone & 25 minerals (more if you build/cancel). Not the greatest option for the race that lives & dies off early drone production.
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On April 08 2011 07:50 VictorX wrote:
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair?
You respond with pretty much any other timing attack or by taking a third because the zerg has spent ridiculous amounts on static defense & queens. Your suggestion is ideal if you were omniscient and knew the attack was coming. As a general build though it's not ithe greatest..
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On April 08 2011 09:19 Oceaniax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2011 07:50 VictorX wrote:
How do you respond to a Zerg with 4 queens (or more), 2 spores (he smells banshees), spines to defend his front from a ground army, but a delayed lair? You respond with pretty much any other timing attack or by taking a third because the zerg has spent ridiculous amounts on static defense & queens. Your suggestion is ideal if you were omniscient and knew the attack was coming. As a general build though it's not ithe greatest..
And what timing attack could you do? You have maybe 9-15 marines, no stim, no medivacs. And before you take your 3rd, you have to take your nat, which you also haven't done yet.
Also "observant" =/= "omniscient." As has been previously stated, a banshee attack is not hard to sniff from a terran.
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Can you tell us your league please?
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High diamond, aiming masters this weekend hopefully
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I don't understand the point of this thread when this build has been around since beta, and you don't exactly offer anything new to it.
It has hellion harass, cool. Everything that isn't a 2port hard banshee build is going to open with hellion harass, and when your zerg opponent scouts your base with his overlord and sees you have no units killing his OL and you have a tech lab on your port, he's going to know exactly what's up. If he made units, he'll attack and kill you. If he didn't make units and he macro'd hard, he'll have ample time to make a few more queens.
Again, I don't really understand why you made this guide, as this has been around for as long as beta has been around, and you don't offer anything different.
You basically hope that the player isn't going to be aggressive, and if he is, you hope that he doesn't scout your base and respond to the banshees.
This is a decent, but old and well-known strategy, and you offer nothing new.
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On April 05 2011 15:38 Foe91 wrote:
This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over..
how will u see 2nd gas??
unless u steal it no way
how will u know that he is doing banshe rush or not maybe 3 tank push cause what u described to your response to early 2nd gas would kill u if he goes 3 tank like i ussually do with early 2nd refinery
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On April 09 2011 15:40 Rexar123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 15:38 Foe91 wrote:
This kind of build is what makes Zergs rage - especially if you make yourself unscoutable (a few marines at the edges of your base makes overlord sacrifice pretty useless).
If I see two early gas though, you can bet I'm going early lair and throwing down two spores and a hydra den ASAP. I won't be afraid of your ground push because you'll be throwing so many SCVs into gas and tech I should be able to hold you off pretty solidly.
That or I may just opt to make a few extra queens - two at each expo with a spore crawler for support should be able to keep you at bay, at least until I can pop some hydralisks out.
It's an interesting build, but nothing we Zergs haven't seen before...
Unfortunately, it still gets me every now and again if you send more than two hellions - I sometimes throw down that roach warren and at that point I may as well just roll over.. how will u see 2nd gas?? unless u steal it no way how will u know that he is doing banshe rush or not maybe 3 tank push cause what u described to your response to early 2nd gas would kill u if he goes 3 tank like i ussually do with early 2nd refinery
It's an old and bad "strategy", just let it die already.
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i dont do this strat, it sucks
but how are so u confident??
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It's a timing thing, even assuming that zerg doesn't have an overlord in position to sack into your base they'll see that you haven't expanded which means banshees or some other kind of all-in (mass blue flame, scvs + 20 or so marines etc). All the zerg has to do is make roaches, 2-3 extra queens and spores and it's very unlikely that any all-in will kill the zerg meanwhile the lack of an expansion will mean that as soon as the terran attack fails the zerg can crush them with a vastly superior econ and production. Not to mention that if I as zerg scout a terran that went two gases I'm expecting banshee (or a feint). If you delay until my scouting drone is dead than it delays the allin even more.
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As much as 2-port cloak banshee can be hard for Z to deal with and completely devastating if the Z has no idea it's coming, the OP is making a lot of wrong assumptions:
1) If the zerg scouting drone sees an early gas, your 2nd gas will be stolen and your banshee push is now vastly delayed.
2) If a Zerg sees early helions, it will tell him you have only 2 potential followups off 1 base: banshees or tanks
3) If a Zerg sees a 1 base Terran behind a bunker, the Z will nearly always assume banshees.
4) "A zerg going FE will probably attempt a baneling bust" this is based on what exactly?
Additionally, a good zerg will not rush to lair/spire if double port banshees are suspected, instead he will put up 2 spores per base and go up to 4 queens, since 2 queens can also be used to block the ramp should the terran go blueflame helions instead of the banshees.
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EPT
