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red_b
United States1267 Posts
1. spire is something you're probably going to get sometime anyway, be it for mutas or corrupters. 2. map architecture as it stands tends to make brood lords better, but ultras worse (sometimes significantly so, such as on scrap station) 3. brood lords have serious range, ultras have very short range 4. broodlings can buffer hits and mess with pathing ultras would be a lot better if the unit size was reasonable IMO | ||
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dogcore
Albania128 Posts
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hizBALLIN
United States163 Posts
Ultralisks themselves only have two real drawbacks are far as I can see. One is their incredibly long build time, and the other is their lousy pathing/attack behaviors. In ZvT they share upgrades with your typical early game go-to units, Ling/Baneling, which is convenient, but broodlings also use those upgrades which provide a substantial increase to broodlord DPS. The number 1 reason to use Broodlords over ultralisks is that on most maps, ultralisks are geographically inviable. The narrow paths and tight chokes make Ultralisks worse than their normally barely-on-par performance, and makes broodlords' already nice features shine even more. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On January 20 2011 13:10 hizBALLIN wrote: The only matchup I use ultralisks in is ZvZ, and only when I see my opponent is staying mass roach far too late in the game. In ZvP Broodlord+Roach/Hydra handles the Protoss Deathball far far better than Roach/Hydra + Ultra does, or even Roach Hydra + Ultra/Infestor. In ZvT, Broodlords work well as part of most lategame ZvT armies, since Terran field few things that handle them well if the broodlords have a sufficient swarm of zerg units underneath them. Ultralisks themselves only have two real drawbacks are far as I can see. One is their incredibly long build time, and the other is their lousy pathing/attack behaviors. In ZvT they share upgrades with your typical early game go-to units, Ling/Baneling, which is convenient, but broodlings also use those upgrades which provide a substantial increase to broodlord DPS. The number 1 reason to use Broodlords over ultralisks is that on most maps, ultralisks are geographically inviable. The narrow paths and tight chokes make Ultralisks worse than their normally barely-on-par performance, and makes broodlords' already nice features shine even more. Idk, brood lords are really only viable if you're making them in open air, because stalkers can blink right under them, and then its bye bye b-lords. Unless you keep them behind your roach hydra ball, but I don't like playing ball-of-doom zerg, seems our ball of doom dies to other's balls of doom. But in any case, sounds interesting... But I generally find air to be kind of risky and many games (I'm talking in ZvP) avoid the spire alltogether. Regardless, hive teching is worth it for the ups and the cracklings, though I struggle with b-lords vs ultras or both against toss in the end-game, just seems too scary to go either way, though perhaps I need to pick one and just practice it till I make it work.  Perhaps if I quit roach rushing or climb to a level that P players hold it off regularly, I might actually see more end-games vs Protoss... hehe | ||
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GT
Korea (South)141 Posts
vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Rofl, no. | ||
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mczbot
Germany70 Posts
On January 20 2011 14:15 GT wrote: vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Rofl, no. im actually digging the ultra in zvz, as most army compositions in midgame consist of infestor/roach and a few hydras. now just cut some roaches and get some ultras -> fungal growth -> lay back and enjoy the massaker youre doing | ||
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GT
Korea (South)141 Posts
On January 20 2011 15:03 mczbot wrote: im actually digging the ultra in zvz, as most army compositions in midgame consist of infestor/roach and a few hydras. now just cut some roaches and get some ultras -> fungal growth -> lay back and enjoy the massaker youre doing id agree that they can be useful, but i often feel like theyre only useful in the same instances that they are in zvt. most often in games youve already won. but i did experiment with one or two of them and they are DECENT, it just seems like you have far superior options available. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On January 20 2011 14:15 GT wrote: vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Post a vid if you actually manage to tech and morph Ultras without getting yourself killed because no one else has Fix'd | ||
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CidO
United States695 Posts
But it also relies on the metagame to take advantage of them. If you know your opponent is going heavy xxx (whatever ultras are designed to counter) then yeah, go for them. This goes back to map pool and needing more space to utilize them. in Chokecraft 2 you just don't have as much open space as you need, so that is why standing on slings would be crucial. | ||
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bliss613
3 Posts
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Rizzie
Canada18 Posts
On January 20 2011 11:52 DuncanIdaho wrote: But all joking aside, I think the 200 rine army example, was a bit stacked in the ultras' favor, and it wouldn't have worked out so well if they were stimmed and kiting them. However, to say to never use them is silly. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any mono-army. Given, some units work better as mono-armies than others, but I never have a mono-ultra army, unless it's 3v3 Monday Funday. lmao :D Edit add-in: Okay, I stand corrected, thanks for those stats, Rizzie! So, if ultras have +2 melee and the chitinous upgrade, thus 2/2, they win in a ration of 1:12? Sounds like an efficient use of supply to me, 6 to 12... However, as the previous person between Miles' and this post said, they're great at taking out buildings. And lets face it, Terran has a crap ton of buildings towards the endgame, and base trades don't work well for zerg, at least from my experience. I mean, yeah, our hatches/lairs/hives have a lot of hp, but that (and maybe a macro hatch or two) and a few tech structures are it. Terran, they generally have several unit producing structures, not to mention supply depots (keep in mind, our supply, olords, dont count as buildings necessary to kill...). So, building-killing units are quite smart. I say give them a try, experiment with them by mixing them into your armies. I'll agree, vs zerg or terran is the safest, and tread carefully vs protoss, due to the fear of immortals, but I will say they're great when sicked on collosi, even when surrounded by stalkers, you know, those obnoxious corrupter and ling killing balls of doom. Mix in other units such as hydra roach infestor though, of course. Why you're very welcome for the stats. All of those stats were given with NO KITING OR MICRO. (Caps to get the point across) When tests are done, they should have no human interaction whatsoever, to make it as fair as possible. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting Ultras only against a bio-ball. I highly suggest Blings+Cracklings for that. Much more effective and easier to replace | ||
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sas911
Canada113 Posts
Comparison: DPS... too lazy, but I'll say ultras have higher dps to give them SOMETHING nice :D Movement. Broodlords are slower, but can move anywhere as air, aka skipping ledges and etc, but IS worse than ultra. Doesn't fail in movement in army engagements however. Ultras are opposite, general good movement, but as it is bulky can fail pathing pretty dam hard. Broodlords have awesome range, doesn't detract damage from other units. Ultralisks are melee units. Also very fat, so not all lings can attack. Broodlords (thanks to range) are hard to target when behind a MAX SUPPLY ARMY. Ultralisks are a huge target Spire is useful for corruptors, mutas. Ultralisk cavern is only for ultras. Ultralisks share upgrades Broodlings share upgrades Broodlords can utilize range to kill turtling. Ultralisks... can't really do anything about turtling. ---- EDIT, because all noobs like mentioning broodlords get sniped by blink stalkers, I'll make an extra piece. Yah they do die to stalkers, which means their entire freaking army excluding colossus is targetting JUST BROODLORDS. Your army can wipe that out, as they are taking like no dmg. No one is pro enough to control all of the stalkers to make sure they never overkill a broodlord, or have stalkers at the back who don't even have range to not attack. You wipe out colossus with your corruptors, they have stalkers all shooting at the sky, your ground army wins hard. And frankly, if your army is big enough, blink stalkers cant even fully reach all of the broodlords, unless they go directly in the middle (which is just plain stupid, as it gives all of your units the advantage to shoot, aka. no units at the back just trying to move to the front) | ||
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