I know there's a kind of thread similar to this, something like, "Broodlords, cost effective" But I'm not worried about the cost effectiveness. I've already realized that it's hard to find a cost effective Zerg unit. My question is, are they worth getting?
What are Ultralisks lethal to? The only armies I know they could be lethal to are Protoss armor (Colossi, Stalkers) and Terran Mech (Tanks, Thors), but still, Ultralisks alone aren't hyper effective against them. Any idea on how to utilize them better?
I might be able to get a replay or two up with me vsing a Protoss player and using Ultralisks. Trying now... Edit: Scratch that. replayfu says that, "The game type isn't supported". >.<;;
Ultralisk are like any other unit, they are good in certain situations while in some they aren't.... If this were to go on lets make a thread about how bad BCs are most of the time.
Your video is badly outdated. It shows ultras as they were in early stages of the beta.
Now they have :
- Speed without ugpgrade - Cant be mind controled of Funghal Growthed, nor slowed by marauders shells - Do far more damage against armored units than showed in this video - Walk over forcefields so they make them useless - Etc.
I'm not saying they are stellar, and the broodlords are usually a better call, but can have their uses in some late game situations, like when the Terran commited to Vikings to hunt your broodlors, you can transition to Utras, against Protoss after a mutaling play with the help of infestors. Usually they work great with infestors to prevent Stalkers to blink or Terran to kite, but thats true that they take forever to build.
Neithertheless, they can sometimes save your day like no other unit, so dont dismiss them that fast :D
First of all it should be noted that upgrades on equal sides benefit the ultra's quite a bit. So testing a 0-0 scenario isn't good, 2-2 or 3-3 is more realistic.
That said ultra's are indeed not that fantastic, the only composition they really rock against that is usd is the stalker/sentry/colossus combo. Unfortunately it is rather easy for toss to mix in zealots and immortals then in which case the toss combo starts to do really well again.
Ultra's are only really good as a suprise MASS unit imo in basically 2 scenario's: - against stalker/colossus/sentry. You suprise them with a good bunch of ultra and win before they switch to immortal/zealot. - against marine/tank. This is most common actually. Zerg uses muta/bane/ling and forces a huge fight while on 4+ bases. Zerg trades armies with terran and then instantly reinforces with MASS ultra. This is a great finishing move which does require zerg to be ahead in economy.
TL;DR Ultra's are mostly a finishing unit, used when you are ahead in economy and just want to trample over the opponent without much risk. In tight games they aren't cost effective enough.
On January 17 2011 23:38 Krfstniper wrote: how old is that video? Forcefields have been vanishing from massive units for like 8 months
there you have it ultras are good vs forcefield at least just joking, but if you play zerg and faced a good FF using protoss, you pretty much have to get burrowed roaches and later ultras, or you get blown. You might say hydras, but FF + storm owns them, so a better composition is required. I was wandering myself about a counter to mass sentries. Before you bash my statements, watch Sen playing toss to see my point.
On January 17 2011 23:42 branflakes14 wrote: FUNGAL.
GROWTH.
yeah, this pretty much disables micro, since units can't move and ultras do their damage another aspect is that that you can surround with zerglings while ultras move in for the kill, just surround units and groups of units like in wc3 and then force them to use scroll of town portal PWNAGE
Ultras force me to abandon my mass marine play and swap every rax to tech labs, making a switch from XXX-to ultra - to XXXX hurts because you abuse my inability to churn out marines now.
As said, FG + upgrades and just swarm the hell outta a terran. Ultras aren't horrible, no way I'm engaging without tanks + marauders.
Ultras always need infestors with them, otherwise they get kited to death. I feel they are good but often against T you get them after brood lords to laugh at the vikings.
I find them useful at the end of the games where you have already clashed with your big armies and you and your opponent are starting to get lower on food again. In such a situation some ultras with lings are deadly as the ultras take forever to kill upgraded if your opponent doesn't have enough forced to target them down instantly.,
Ultras fit a very strange roll. They designed them to dish out serious damage, yet at the same time made it difficult to do so. The unit size is far too big, which is probably related to its horrible pathing. This makes it almost useless when using it with melee units because they either get blocked, or they block other units. They could use a buff of some sort, like speed or size shrink. You see them used every now and then, but the game is already won before they even pop out.
Ultra's EAT buildings whole! Hit an exp fast with a bunch of Ultra's to nom though it and lings to nibble the scv's and it'll be down before they realise you've attacked
That first encounter next to the gold half his ultralisks were stuck behind the hydra wall. If Morrow just bothered microing that a little better; walking the hydras to the side, it would have been so much better.
ZvP useless if he has 2 or more immortals, or the capacity to produce them, but very bad vs immortal-less compositions too. Does well vs Colossi-sentry only composition
ZvZ very badly outranged and outmicroable by roach-hydra but it's useless because of the Broodlords, they are fat and the broodlings will prevent them from moving forward
ZvT can be useful if you go to Broodlords after midgame, have 5 bases and try to army trade with the T, who will win the battle, preferably with mostly vikings left, then roll out 15 of them and it can be game ending unless the T survives with a decent enough force to rush into your nat/main/crutial exp and do terrible terrible demage, and snipe lonely ultras as they pop
Yep, useless pretty much in my eyes
they were better before the Blizz guys screwed up their splash, then nerfed it back to be worse then originally, and players didnt react well enough to them, but nowadays it's pretty lame idea to get ultras unless you're in an unloseable spot
@OP - You have actually decreased the SC2 community's knowledge of the game with your horrendous misinformation about Ultras, by posting (as others have said) an ancient video of Ultras from beta. Your post is so bad as a result, I wish admins would close and bury this thread so people will not accidentally watch that video and decrease their knowledge of the game.
What you should have done is download a unit tester map and test out Ultra's yourself, making your own video, not lazily linked the first Ultra video you found from YouTube without checking the date. Wow.
the thing about ultralisk is that unless you have a pack of stimmed marauders or some immortals, they take forever to kill... a single ultra is equal to about 4 roaches in cost, and survivability, and speed, and damage, but it doesn't lose a quarter of it's damage for every ~150 hp it loses and it isn't instagibbed by splash (splash will kill 4 roaches like their total hp pool is practically 145).
it's the same as battlecruiser though... it's a gamble to invest in them unless you have suitable support units and already dominate the game.
theoretically, mutalisk to gain advantage and then transition into muta/ultra is a killer strategy. since the units good against ultralisk are dire against mutalisk.
Absolutely no. They seem horrible in all pro-games I've seen. They're too big, so they block each other always and only two or even one can attack at a time in some narrow places, So only a small portion does damage while others just sit there and take it. Despite all upgrades, they still seem to melt easily and most importantly they are melee, any ranged units like thors or colossi seem to be simply better. Either way, I'd love if they would be buffed a little so people would use them more, but doesn't seem like that's happening any time soon. I only use them for fun, when I know I've won.
The fact that they are pretty horrible atm beside from very very specific scenarios (Geo.Rion has given a very fitting description imho) doesn't stem from the unit itself but rather the support it needs to stay viable.
Ultras alone are very easily countered, and the units you'd need to actually make them useful are extremly gas-intensive as well - Ultra/Infestor/Hydra (and so'd be Ultra/Muta/Broodlord) is a scary combination of units, but just not affordable with less then 5 minings bases of gas, while even the lategame lineups of other races are easier sustain since their mineral-dump units stay awesome when upgrades are involved.
I find it unfortunate that at this stage in SC2 we are still discussing ultras in this manner. Ultras, in my lowly opinion, really shouldn't be considered from a pure ultra composition (same with other ultimate units like BC, carrier, broodlord). The enormous benefit of FG with ultras, ling surround, muta support, or more situational tanking (breaking turtles as a last resort) uses of ultras are the important considerations.
Their size is a negative for obvious reasons, but also a positive for tank and col. splash.
Personally, I VERY rarely use them. If they have marauders you don't want to mass ultras, and if they have marines then I'd just get 80 banelings anyway... so why would I want ultras?
Ultras are pretty damn good against gateway units (especially when it's sentry heavy), you just need a good composition of units in order to take down the gateway units. Other than that i'd go broodlords 99% of the time
I love how everyone forgets how utterly dominating SC2 ultralisks are in comparison to BW ultras.... I mean seriously, Ultra ling was made to be a speed composition, not a damage composition, just like it was in Broodwar. As nam nam said, Ultralisks are great in small unit encounters, so striking from multiple positions to thwart large army confrontations is how ultralisks were meant to be used!
vs terran you really really really need infestors to make them super good... problem is that both infestors and ultras eat up gas so it'll be hard to support it
Yes and no, it's already been mentioned but Ultras are very situational and rarely cost effective. In direct combat they just funnel and fail hard. I've watched some TLO replays where he has a big advantage but then loses because he goes Ultras. You know a unit is bad if they can cause TLO to lose.
Then again, to their credit, I have won one game thanks to producing Ultras. My opponent(T) got sloppy and separated his tanks and bio and my 4 Ultras just happened to flank his group of 5-6 undefended tanks. I was able to pull out a win by mopping up his bio with a few remaining blings/lings/ and surviving ultras.
So you almost have to get a great flank against a unit that is slow and hard countered by Ultras (siege tanks and colossus come to mind). Otherwise, I've rarely ever seen Ultras paying for themselves.
On January 18 2011 02:29 ShatterZer0 wrote: I love how everyone forgets how utterly dominating SC2 ultralisks are in comparison to BW ultras.... I mean seriously, Ultra ling was made to be a speed composition, not a damage composition, just like it was in Broodwar. As nam nam said, Ultralisks are great in small unit encounters, so striking from multiple positions to thwart large army confrontations is how ultralisks were meant to be used!
BW ultras cost 2 less supply, are much smaller, faster, don't die as fast, and are cheaper. Lings were also much better in BW, they dealt more damage, and survived longer. Ultraling could go toe-to-toe with most army compositions even without dark swarm.
In SC2, they seem best for reinforcing once your main army is destroyed. They get killed so quickly by marauders and immortals, it's ridiculous.
The ultralisk have a very important role in the zvt match up. To be able to attack and kill an PF expansion you need ultras to take down the PF. Banlings cost to much, to be the only thing to kill it. With some ultras it is so much better and they tank the dmg quite well. They are not superb, but when you want to take down a PF expansion fast and effective you need the ultras.
I feel like ultralisks were in a great place before the patch that "fixed" their splash damage.
If they would just bring back the headbutt against buildings (and buff it so it's worth having) and leave the splash against units like it was at release, the ultralisk would actually be useful against the armies it's designed to be useful against (stalker balls, mass thors, clumps of armored units like roaches, etc.).
On January 18 2011 04:10 Toxigen wrote: I feel like ultralisks were in a great place before the patch that "fixed" their splash damage.
If they would just bring back the headbutt against buildings (and buff it so it's worth having) and leave the splash against units like it was at release, the ultralisk would actually be useful against the armies it's designed to be useful against (stalker balls, mass thors, clumps of armored units like roaches, etc.).
Yeah, I really liked how mass ultras used to be a good way to deal with mass thors.
However, I think the problem with the headbutt was that its range was less than that of the normal attack. So if the ultra tried to attack a building surround by SCVs, it just would run around because it wouldn't be able to get enough surface area to start attacking properly. With the change to the normal attack on buildings, it is able to reach over those SCVs and deal splash to them as well.
The unit just seems too clumsy nowadays with the reduced splash range and awkward size
I'm surprised no one has mentioned ultralisks in ZvZ in a bit.
Roach/infestor is a popular combo in mid-game ZvZ, but gets absolutely shredded by Ultralisks, as they completely ignore fungals. I've seen many a games won when a stalemate was reached with roach/infestor and roach/hydra, with one daring player going for the T3 and steamrolling through their army.
On January 18 2011 04:40 OfficerTJHooker wrote: I'm surprised no one has mentioned ultralisks in ZvZ in a bit.
Roach/infestor is a popular combo in mid-game ZvZ, but gets absolutely shredded by Ultralisks, as they completely ignore fungals. I've seen many a games won when a stalemate was reached with roach/infestor and roach/hydra, with one daring player going for the T3 and steamrolling through their army.
Too bad roaches with speed can kite ultras and beat them; I remember seeing a game with TLO going for Ultras a couple months ago when he had switched to zerg, but I don't remember who it was against, and the roaches of his opponent just kited all of them, so you would have to say that maybe you would want ultras AND infestors, which = no gas.
I actually do like ultralisks a lot in my ZvT though. I hadn't been using them for a while, and I decided to just go ahead and use them in a lot of my ZvTs against the common Tank Marine combo. The point of the Ultras in this is just to finish the game, they destroy planetaries, and I use them in conjunction with cracklings so that the cracklings just do all the terrible terrible damage while the Ultras just take the hits, and if I get nice surrounds on the marines with my cracklings, the ultras can eat them up. Also really good if I had been going infestors midgame and still have some left around with lots of energy.
they do fine late game vs T. once u have 4+ base going and the game isnt going anywhere, thats when ultralisk can change the game and end it in your favor. they are rare.
On January 18 2011 05:34 PhiliBiRD wrote: they do fine late game vs T. once u have 4+ base going and the game isnt going anywhere, thats when ultralisk can change the game and end it in your favor. they are rare.
but they are worth it
How? A bio army has a lot of ranged DPS and can destroy 3-6 ultras before armies connect. What composition for Z and T are you referring to.
On January 17 2011 23:31 Alpina wrote: From my experience in ZvT they are really good if you have them upgraded. In ZvP they sucks badly vs. any good protoss composition.
Actually a lot of stalker heavy compositions get raped by ultras. Ultras are very good tanks (obviously), have splash, pretty good DPS etc. Late game you will need broodlords or ultras, i dont really like getting broodlords against terran (marins and vikings). Since generally against protoss you will have corrupters, its quite easy to transition to broodlords. I think overall it depends on the opponent's army composition, since late game protoss and terran compositions will destroy you if you dont have tier 3.
I stopped teching Ultralisks to be honest. I really liked to play them since maybe 1 week before 1.2 but since this moment i prefer infestor/broolord/mutalisk/speedling army setups.
Ultralisks are good. Obviously you need to flank the bio balls or stuff with your zerglings/ultra or FG them so he can't micro too well. Also better to fight on creep with them.
Wow terrible op, terrible to put that old video in there not is it only super outdated but its alist like: oh lets pick this unit versus this unit and try them out against eachother!!!!!! OH NOES this unit dies its clearly underpowered!!!
.....
It doesnt work that way in this game. You have combinations of different units and not just walk around with one type of unit the whole game, sheesh.
I know its kinda like beating a dead horse at this point, but once bigger (and arguably better) maps come out, we'll all be talking about how OP zerg is with 300/200 sandwiches and how ultras decimate anything on the open field with a flank (and eventually how the ultra needs to be nerfed.. xD)
On January 18 2011 06:16 SwizzY wrote: I know its kinda like beating a dead horse at this point, but once bigger (and arguably better) maps come out, we'll all be talking about how OP zerg is with 300/200 sandwiches and how ultras decimate anything on the open field with a flank (and eventually how the ultra needs to be nerfed.. xD)
So true. Right now Ultras have a glitch in their attack animation. If you kite them well enough, they won't finish their attack and you won't take any damage. Ultras really need some sick flanking action to pin their target down to become effective.
you will still see 10 times more often ultralisks than you will see carriers (true for broodlords too) but you could argue colossi are used maybe even more often so i dunno
transitions to ultras in macro lategames are always entertaining though :D
ultralisk aren't suppose to counter bio -.- stim bio just melt them away It only counter terran mech and protoss death ball of stalker+colossi What pros do is fake broodlords then max with pure ultras
Ultralisks are very good for their role. Instead of questioning "are they ever worthwhile", try asking "how could these be useful?" Do your own "Funday Monday" and push for ultras as fast as possible. They are the most larva efficient unit you can produce, how does that affect things?
Ultralisks are massive, which means they break forcefields AND they can not be held immobile by fungal growth AND they are not slowed by concussive shell. A quick test in the unit tester or a quick look at liquipedia will confirm this.
Ultralisks are late game units. In order to be truly effective, they require their full armor upgrades (both the ground armor +3 and the ultralisk specific Chitonous plating). With this, un-upgraded marines only do 1 damage per shot... up to a whopping 3 damage a shot with +3. Having their attack upgrades are also really important, particularly if enemy marines or zerglings do not have armor upgraded. Also, upgraded ultras 3 shot marauders. If kiting is a problem, run lings in first to surround, or fungal growth, or nydus/drop ultras into their base or some other creative thing we haven't seen yet. (Just thinking about how fast you could get a 10 ultras out of a nydus worm makes me shudder...)
However, you can't just sort of decide late game "well, I guess I'm at late game, I suppose Ultralisks might be useful". You have to decide early that ultralisks are your late game strategy and get their upgrades mid game. This means that lings transition to ultras more easily than a roach/hydra build, but it certainly is still possible if you know where you are going. This is the same as saying that banshees transition more easily to battlecruisers than marine/tank. As day[9] keeps saying "have a plan".
I have seen it most effectively used by the zerg "300 food army". Specifically you macro strongly and stockpile larvae, then throw most of your units at the enemy, taking out half their army, then immediately queue 10-20 Ultras (fully upgraded by this point) and 70 seconds later you are back to 200/200 and smash them as they are rebuilding. From there you build cracklings like crazy as the ultras die, because they get back into the front as quickly as possible and are awesome at tearing down the buildings once the ultras drilled the hole.
Lets see ZvP: Broodlords are better against 99% of unit comps, and with ultras I need an even more wide open space than roach/hydra ZvZ: Ultralisks are about as good vs roach/hydra as zerglings are vs colossi ZvT: Hmm, I only ever use them for tech switches. Frankly though if my oppenent lets me stock up on 6 bases to gem 10000/5000 or whatever it is to remax on ultralisks, I've probably already one. He'll I could probably remax on roaches and do just as good with the ultralisks.
I don't use them at all. I tried to use them once against toss.. it was a huge mistake, after trading armies I queue as much ultras as I could. Before they came out I lost my main and 1st expansion, and the ones from main base + expansion were of course at the place first, so they got pwnt separately from the others that were coming from the rest of the map.
I use them alot, way more than i will ever use brood lords. Against P I have used them with at least 75-90% success. I think that lots of creep would be essential to even get to ultra's. The creep would allow for major concaves when needed to fend off attacks while teching to ultras and getting the upgrades. Opening 10-15 mutas has helped as well to keep them inside their base and to severely damage their eco, as well letting me expand freely for the resources. I would proceed to go hydra-roach-ling and mass creep spread which I have started since the beginning of the game.
On January 17 2011 23:42 branflakes14 wrote: FUNGAL.
GROWTH.
DOES. NOT. AFFECT. ULTRAS.
you kinda missed the point. he's saying that you should use fungal growth to hold units still so the ultras can destroy them without dealing with kiting
yesterday i focused a lot on ling ultra (hadnt built an ultra in like two months lol) with double evo upgrades. won every game that went long enough. of course im platinum, so my opponents didnt try any kind of air respnse, which helped.
one funny moment, cross metal vs t. he brings his bio tank army out, sees my 4th hatch in the corner with no drones yet' sieges up and attacks it with everything. while his tanks started shooting the hatch my 8 ultras and 80 cracklings run up behind him and eliminate all the tanks and then everything else. he didnt even kill the hatch it was so quick.
On January 18 2011 01:59 Johnny_Vegas wrote: @OP - You have actually decreased the SC2 community's knowledge of the game with your horrendous misinformation about Ultras, by posting (as others have said) an ancient video of Ultras from beta. Your post is so bad as a result, I wish admins would close and bury this thread so people will not accidentally watch that video and decrease their knowledge of the game.
What you should have done is download a unit tester map and test out Ultra's yourself, making your own video, not lazily linked the first Ultra video you found from YouTube without checking the date. Wow.
Please do note that I didn't state ANYTHING AT ALL saying about what Ultralisks are capable of. I was asking if there are more situations I could integrate them into my armies against Terran and Protoss. The video was there mostly for show. I know that it was outdated. I know it was full of crap. I have downloaded a unit tester and tested Ultras myself. I was asking if anyone else knew of an army they could counter effectively. READ posts before you make claims like this.
No creep, no upgrades, are you fucking serious? And when are you going to have ultras without lings to block the retreating units?
If you tech to the highest tier unit in the zerg race and don't have AT LEAST +2/+2 with +3/+3 on the way, you're terrible.
Way to be a Killjoy.
If you paid attention to the video, the Ultralisk has the Chitinous Plating Upgrade and Marauders would own even harder since their weapon upgrades scale better. So please, before raging at me, think about what you say.
On January 18 2011 09:24 Rizzie wrote: Please do note that I didn't state ANYTHING AT ALL saying about what Ultralisks are capable of. I was asking if there are more situations I could integrate them into my armies against Terran and Protoss. The video was there mostly for show. I know that it was outdated. I know it was full of crap. I have downloaded a unit tester and tested Ultras myself. I was asking if anyone else knew of an army they could counter effectively. READ posts before you make claims like this.
On the contrary, you claimed that ultras were "terribad" based on the video, which as others have pointed out reveals nothing about the current state of ultralisks. If you knew the video was useless, why link it in the first place? I suggest going back and reading your own post, then fixing it up so that it's actually relevant to the current game.
If you think about ultras in comparison to the other 2 massive ground units in the game it becomes obvious why you don't see them anywhere near as often as thors or colossi, all three of which cost the same resources and food to produce.
Ultras take much longer to get to than either of the other two.
Ultras need upgrades more than the other two to be effective, barring Colossus range. At least 2/4 is absolutely mandatory. YOu also need to have kept up with these upgrades because it will be so late in the game when you get the ultras out that protoss will most likely have +3 weapons and the terran will have 3/3 infantry upgrades.
The huge initial cost invested for the sole purpose of ultras is much higher than colossi or thors and they are also less cost effective rather than more cost effective in large numbers because they cannot all attack at once, rather than simply have more damage and more of them surviving an engagement like thors and colossi do.
Ultras must get within range of any anti armor units you have in order to deal any damage, there is no cute micro you can do that keeps them out of range of the units that counter them unless your opponent makes a mistake. They also cannot target fire those units E.G if you have Immortals in your army I can't fire over the Zealots and Stalkers to kill those Immortals off to lessen their effectiveness like Thors and Colossi can to Hydras. Thors and Colossi have 7 and 9 range, meaning they can simply keep back out of range of most of the anti armor units. Even in the case of Vikings against Colossi the Colossi can keep Stalkers between them and they don't even have to use that much micro because the Colossi can step over the Stalkers.
Thors and Colossi do not have to compete with other units in their army composition for the ability to attack the enemy like lings and ultras do. They also do not have to deal with the dis-economy of scale that melee has to deal with(As an army gets larger, there is less circumference in proportion to surface area.).
Thors and colossi are not punished nearly as much for fighting in chokepoints as Ultras are.
I mean think about it, as Terran when are 5 Ultras scarier than 25 Roaches? When you have all Tanks and Thors and not enough production facilities for bio. As Protoss? When you have all Stalker Sentry Colossus and you didn't get blink. As Zerg? When you don't have an army period. Of course in the cases of T or P these scenarios are entirely negated if you have a ramp to defend and are only 1 base behind.
By their stats, their abilities, their uses in various compositions, the time it takes to get them out, the amount of actual use they get by anyone, is there a single meaure of them that doesn't show them to be inferior to Thors and Colossi?
Ultras are great with the muta ling bling combo. By the time I get my ultralisks out, they are fully upgraded and are totally awesome. I love it against the mmm ball because it just takes some micro. Hide the lings and make them go right behind the mmm ball or even most armies and don't let the enemy move. Then ultras come in front and just rape the unmoving units. FG also works nicely.
Ultra use is very situational. Obviously in certain instances where the enemy army comp is likely to kill your ultras instantaneously they are likely a poor choice. Personally I like to use them if I'm going roach/hydra against a ground heavy enemy army (implying armored enemies - stalkers, thors, roaches, and such). They are great meat shields to have up in front with roach or roach and hydra support because they will weaken down the enemy army and take hits so your roaches/hydras can get in free hits. The only problem in this scenario is that the ultras will probably have no attack upgrades but will only have armor. It's also nice if you have extra queens and have them following around to transfuse.
Generally speaking though I don't end up getting ultras. You really need to look at the situation there's no other way of analyzing it. When considering to make ultras you don't think "ALRIGHT! Once I have enough of these guys out it doesn't matter what the enemy has because I'll just roll right over them"
i almost never make ultras simply because they are very slow off creep and not everyone allows you to stay on; in zvp i think broodlords are the better choice because you will most likely have an army consisting of roach/hydra/corruptor which makes the transition quite easy
also in the other matchups they arent really useful as hit and run off and chokes can easily make them a useless investment
Ultras are not cost-effective DPS. They have their role in pretty much every fight, though.
Against Terran, Ultras are the bane of Planetary Fortresses. They're basically the only unit that deals with them in efficient time.
Against Protoss, a Colossus shooting an Ultra is basically doing no splash damage because of just how fat ultras are. This is a *massive* reduction in the DPS of a deathball.
Immortals do kill Ultras pretty easily, but Zerg also get Cracklings at Hive tech. If you do not produce Cracklings at Hive tech, then you're a loser, even if you win the game.
No creep, no upgrades, are you fucking serious? And when are you going to have ultras without lings to block the retreating units?
If you tech to the highest tier unit in the zerg race and don't have AT LEAST +2/+2 with +3/+3 on the way, you're terrible.
Way to be a Killjoy.
If you paid attention to the video, the Ultralisk has the Chitinous Plating Upgrade and Marauders would own even harder since their weapon upgrades scale better. So please, before raging at me, think about what you say.
Sincerely, me.
EDIT: some guy dared me to make this video :D
What a stupid video, you're never going to see this situation in an actual game, it's like pitting a colossus against two vikings in a giant open space with no other units and saying "Dur look colossus are useless against Terran!"
Congrats, all you've proven is that if two marauder have an infinite amount of space to micro in on no creep they can kill one Ultra.
On January 18 2011 09:24 Rizzie wrote: Please do note that I didn't state ANYTHING AT ALL saying about what Ultralisks are capable of. I was asking if there are more situations I could integrate them into my armies against Terran and Protoss. The video was there mostly for show. I know that it was outdated. I know it was full of crap. I have downloaded a unit tester and tested Ultras myself. I was asking if anyone else knew of an army they could counter effectively. READ posts before you make claims like this.
On the contrary, you claimed that ultras were "terribad" based on the video, which as others have pointed out reveals nothing about the current state of ultralisks. If you knew the video was useless, why link it in the first place? I suggest going back and reading your own post, then fixing it up so that it's actually relevant to the current game.
Ahem. Direct quote from the original post. I'm bold-ing the part you should read, as you obviously can't read on your own.
"As portrayed in this video,Ultralisks are terri-bad. I seriously like Ultralisks, but want to integrate them into my army more often. Sorry if I have no replay, but this isn't much of a, "Hey I just won a match, watch my replay tell me what to do better" More or less, I just want to know..."
Can I make it any more obvious? The question was, "Where can I integrate Ultralisks in to my army more often?" Not, "Ultralisks are terrible, here's an extremely outdated video showing proof when there's tremendous room for the human to micro around the computer lololol this is terrible proof" I know that it was outdated. Yet again, another quote from me, inside your own quotation of myself. If you quote someone, know what you're quoting and know what they mean. Don't just blindly type and get across the meaning, "OMG U SAID SOMETHING SO THAT MEANS YOU BELIEVE IT" That's what I got out of your garbled little few paragraphs. And if you're trollin', try harder. Honestly, I expect more out of Sc 2 players/fans in the respects of intelligence and arguing/debating.
The out-dated video is really not contributing anything to this discussion, so why did you add it if it has no relevance to your question?
But anyways, about your question, as toss ultras are really good if I don't have time to react to them or don't know there coming. So if I have a sentry/stalker/collossus ball and the zerg switches suddenly from roach-hydra to ultras (and has the economy to build 10+ of them) then I'm screwed) I don't see ultras often so really I don't know how to respond to them very well either, and I feel many other toss players are the same way.
I think zerg should use them more often, since as a toss I'm so reliant on FF's in PvZ. But hey, I can't speak for zerg. All I know is that whenever I've fought against ultras they seem pretty damn effective.
Aren't ultralisks supposed to tank damage and not to make, just so your dps army can live little longer and deal a lot more damage than the ultralisks ever could?
- got stomped and got few larva - you're already ahead it doesn't even matter what you build anymore (just like terran all game roflz)
too bad they get roflstomped by marines and outmicroed by.. uhm ... everything. marines killing ultras looks like some ghettogangser killing the terminator with a knife.
Ultras are worth getting unless your opponent has a heavy VR or Broodlord composition. Use them wise and mix them with speedlings and hydras in the back. The videos are outdated and imho one sided.
Make sure your ultras engage on creep and theres no problem w/ the pathing/unit size/movement. and its kinda hard to kite ultras on creep since they are 3.83903 speed on creep Only problem is engaging on creep lol.... >,>
The only time I've ever lost using Ultralisks was playing against mass Immortals. You cannot simply just use Ultralisks, you need back up units like Infestors or Broodlords.
I use Ultralisks to tank and deal damage while Hydralisks, or Broodlords throw out mass damage, or even allow the banelings to come through and roflstomp the Marines/Tanks.
The Brood Lord, to ultra Tech switch is prob. the most powerful tech switch in the game.. They have their use just like most units in zerg's arsenal however, they need wide spaces and maybe a good fungal or 2 but No they are pretty bad against marine, maurader balls they just can't dish out the dmg
My personal experience with ultras has been nothing but desastrous, so I stopped making them (and that was before the nerf).
But I think they could have potential against toss and zerg, using them with a lot of queens, and some nydus worms. It doesn't sound too unrealistic, I'll give it a try.
Against terran I don't see any reason to make them other than when he has too many vikings, as a brutal switch.
The best thing about them is how larva efficient they are, so after an army trade it's easier to get back to 200 pop with them than with anything else. That's why they can't be too good IMO, late game would be ridiculous for zerg if they were actually good at killing things.
On January 18 2011 20:16 MilesTeg wrote: My personal experience with ultras has been nothing but desastrous, so I stopped making them (and that was before the nerf).
But I think they could have potential against toss and zerg, using them with a lot of queens, and some nydus worms. It doesn't sound too unrealistic, I'll give it a try.
Against terran I don't see any reason to make them other than when he has too many vikings, as a brutal switch.
The best thing about them is how larva efficient they are, so after an army trade it's easier to get back to 200 pop with them than with anything else. That's why they can't be too good IMO, late game would be ridiculous for zerg if they were actually good at killing things.
Exactly!!!
This is why we terrans ragequit after trading our mass mech army only to face 12 recently hatched ultras with 6 tanks and 2 thors.
Ultras are like cleaning ladies. They quickly and efficiently clean up the mess you just made in your office at a relatively low cost.
On January 18 2011 20:16 MilesTeg wrote: My personal experience with ultras has been nothing but desastrous, so I stopped making them (and that was before the nerf).
But I think they could have potential against toss and zerg, using them with a lot of queens, and some nydus worms. It doesn't sound too unrealistic, I'll give it a try.
Against terran I don't see any reason to make them other than when he has too many vikings, as a brutal switch.
The best thing about them is how larva efficient they are, so after an army trade it's easier to get back to 200 pop with them than with anything else. That's why they can't be too good IMO, late game would be ridiculous for zerg if they were actually good at killing things.
Exactly!!!
This is why we terrans ragequit after trading our mass mech army only to face 12 recently hatched ultras with 6 tanks and 2 thors.
Ultras are like cleaning ladies. They quickly and efficiently clean up the mess you just made in your office at a relatively low cost.
You realize they are one of the most expensive units in the game right? They cost about the same as B-cruisers and Carriers.
They're amazing units to quick tech switch into once the zerg macro mode is heavily up. They're not worth squeezing out of the little money you have, unlike broodlords, which can also be useful in small numbers to break siege lines.
I like how this assertion is made using ONLY ultralisks. Like any unit, they have exploitable weaknesses when used by themselves. Any zerg with a shred of skill will mix in some other units with his/her ultralisks. A few fungal growths, and suddenly you can't move your bioball. Stim suddenly becomes detrimental. A zergling surround, and you can't micro, either. I could make a video about how mutalisks can counter thors by themselves, but it would be pointless and unrealistic, considering the fact that marines often accompany thors. A one unit mass is hardly a unit composition.
I mean think about it, as Terran when are 5 Ultras scarier than 25 Roaches?
25 Roaches: 1875 min - 625 Gas - 50 food - 25 larvae 5 Ultralisks: 1500 min - 1000 Gas - 30 food - 6 larvae
25 Roaches are significantly more expensive in food and larvae. The ultras are more expensive in terms of only gas. In situations where you have lots of resources, but are tight on food and larva, the Ultralisks become much better. "Lots of resources but tight on food or larva" is a very good description of late game. 50 food is 8 ultralisks (and only 8 larvae, leaving a lot more for lings), which yes, is way scarier to me as a terran, than 25 roaches.
Also, comparing ultralisks to thors and saying "oh see how thors are better" is like comparing vikings to mutalisks. Vikings can't harrass give map control anywhere near what a muta ball can. But that isn't the point. Vikings fufill their role in the terran army, which their slow speed and long range help with air superiority and ground support. Because of this, they compliment marines and tanks perfectly, generally by hanging out over/near the rest of the army. They aren't supposed to "be mutalisks" any more than ultralisks are supposed to "be thors".
Ultras give the zerg army it's AoE damage. Ultras give the zerg army their high armor/high hp unit that can take damage on the way in, letting the lings or hydras deal damage. They are the fastest T3 Unit by far... on creep they move 3.8! (They are faster on creep than stimmed marines.)
The ultralisks are good, even if more people are still trying to figure out how to use them. Just like battlecruisers and carriers (which are also not seen very often at this point in time).
I had a Platinum Zergy who seemed to be a pretty good macro player tech switch to ultra at totally the wrong time against my Protoss on cross Lost Temple.
He'd gone for a heavy roach/ling composition having harrassed originally with mutas. So I kinda veered down the IST path instead of my normal CSS combination. He had a shit-ton of roaches, so I had loads of immortals. As it was a long game, he teched up to broodlords, to which I responded with Void Rays.
So now I had my Void + Immortal heavy army, the poor dude decided it was a great time to switch to ultras. Never seen health disappear so fast :/
There really isn't a end-all-be-all answer to your question. Are ultras worth it? Sometimes, it depends on your opponents army composition. The best answer to your question is "It depends." You need to learn the situations in which Ultras benefit you the best, not if they are simply worth it or not. If you scout properly, and often enough, you'll quickly learn the answer to your question during the game.
Since they're a powerful unit, I usually make the decision based on if I see my opponent preparing for, or already building an army in which my ultras would not do well, such as an army that's more air heavy, or immortals.
Against a bio-ball it's important to have sufficient infestor casting, otherwise your ultras can be kited by better players, especially roaches. (Fungal is good to prevent kiting)
Ultras are also pretty good against mass marine balls - mostly due to the high armour of the ultra nerfing the marine damage pretty spectacularly. Need fungal growth as a support though.
Ultras are pretty terrible. You're almost always better served by putting that same amount of gas and supply into broodlords. They both only attack ground, but broodlords can attack something at the same time that a zergling does, and don't get hung up on choke points.
You're going to be making zerglings with either unit, because you need someplace to dump your minerals. Terran and Protoss both have amazing anti-armor units that shoot ground. Ultras die super fast to them. I guess I can see a little bit of use vrs a roach or ling heavy force in zvz but zvz matches rarely get all the way to T3.
The Ultras in your video had no creep or lings to surround or anything. Normally Ultras will have at least one of these and be able to do much much better.
On January 18 2011 19:47 Noob3rt wrote: The only time I've ever lost using Ultralisks was playing against mass Immortals. You cannot simply just use Ultralisks, you need back up units like Infestors or Broodlords.
I use Ultralisks to tank and deal damage while Hydralisks, or Broodlords throw out mass damage, or even allow the banelings to come through and roflstomp the Marines/Tanks.
Why on earth would you use Ultras to purely tank dmg? They take forever to build, are extremely gas heavy, and require at minimum the armor upgrade at ultra cavern, and their AI reminds me of dragoons in BW. You are much better off tanking with mass roaches- much more cost effective, faster, ranged, and can be replenished quickly. Literally the only advantage ultras have is they require less larvae, but by the time they enter the game you should have plenty stockpiled already.
They are good for tanking, like if you need to approach an army. Coupled with some queens with transfuse (you should have creep everywhere if you're good) ultralisks can be very cost efficient.
Their insanely high armor is also great against heavy marine armies, lings, etc.
They are expensive but do have their niche as tanks. They can do a lot of damage too of course if you mass them, but it probably isn't the best idea. It would probably be better just to use Ultralisks as tanks and couple them with Hydralisks for dps/anti-air (along with queens for heal and aa ofc).
ultras tear mech apart, also huge stalker sentry zealot coll armies that would smash your hydra roach army are fairly easy to roll with sufficienty upgraded ultras. also, breaking turtles.
other than that. there not that great. but i think those 3 situations are plenty common anyway.
On January 17 2011 23:31 Alpina wrote: From my experience in ZvT they are really good if you have them upgraded. In ZvP they sucks badly vs. any good protoss composition.
Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience)
On January 17 2011 23:31 Alpina wrote: From my experience in ZvT they are really good if you have them upgraded. In ZvP they sucks badly vs. any good protoss composition.
Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience)
Uh... no... Full-upgrade Marines do 9 damage, full-upgrade Ultralisks have 6 armor and 500 HP. That's something on the order of 170 marine shots to bring down an Ultralisk, depending on HP regen. In order to do that effectively, even with Stim, you'd need to have something like 20 marines to 1 ultralisk in order to bring them down fast enough to not get steamrolled by them, instead.
If you mean that MMM destroys ultras, then that's closer to the truth. Ultras need backup to deal with mass marauders, and that usually comes in the form of zerglings, banelings, and infestors.
In ZvT they can be essential to break a tank line, soaking up most of the tank damage (even the splash damage) as your zerglings and banelings wreck his marines and tanks ^_^
They do? The commentators were constantly referring to how the cost of Morrow's lost units was greater than that of Kiwi's. And Morrow was up in base numbers as well.
Overall points: 1st: This video is old, perhaps patches have adjusted things, one thing being the ultra's now immune to snare, mind-control, etc, ie fungal growth, neural parasite, 250mm cannons, and I also want to say force fields can be trampled, though that may just be the collosus . 2nd, the ultras are poorly micro'd. 3rd, no upgrades, and usually getting the chitinous armor +2 is a given, not to mention any other melee/carapace upgrades the typical zerg player may pick up along the way. Given, the other units may not have had upgrades, but it is known that upgrades aren't necessarily one-for-one, ie +1 atk mutas vs +1 atk vikings have very different outcomes from +0 vs +0. 4th, Ultras apparently are always alone and never with support units. I could probably make a similar video about thors by themselves and collosi by themselves. Yes, thos and collosi have range, which is nice, but ultra vs collosi and ultra vs thor, ultras I believe win, assuming they're in the open, with no support units. But anyways...
Now to critique each example: 5U's vs rine-rauder: 1st, any zerg that charges stimmed units is stupid. 2nd, the AI really did suck, and notice PSY got off a few free hits since they moved back to home position and he shot at them from full range back after grabbing them, several times in his example. 4 U's vs roach hydra: 1250-550, against 1600-900, ultras lost:2, for a net loss of 800-600, seems balanced sentry stalker vs ultra: Um, hello, what kind of decent player goes, "Oh dum-dee-dum-dee-dum, he ff'd my melee units. Me thinks I'll just keep on attacking and not pull back... Whatever, that's true for any melee unit. Okay, so range > melee? No shit... That's why melee needs range support, duh... immortal vs ultra: Well, perhaps this is somewhat scathing, but realize armored units are not the "counter" to immortals, and with that 10dmg to shield max thing, you really need fast, low dmg swings, a la ling or a la hydra. Any decent zerg will have lings/hydras on the immortals, with his ultras on something else, at least until the immortal's shields are down. collosi vs ultra: Oh, he's on a cliff. I should keep hanging out near the cliff with my ultra and let him cliff micro. Right... You know, tanks are crap too. One muta can take out infinite numbers of tanks. Thus, don't make tanks, ever, QED. lolol infestor vs ultra: No longer true, ultras are now immune to nueral parasite. ultras vs blords: Air vs ground, that's so on the money... Again, mutas > tanks, never make tanks? right...
So, hopefully that puts your fears to rest, Ultras are awesome, don't let PSY tell you differently. Furthermore, I think he was being mostly comical and sarcasitc rather than deathly serious. The true story here is to micro well, and have a good unit mix. Ultras are awesome, but not when thrown blindly across the map in an a-move, and especially when done this way with no other supporting units. This video is so misused and frankly, pisses me off, if you didn't already notice. I love PSY, but people need to know to think for themselves, and I swear he's just screwing off with this video as opposed to honestly telling people to never, ever, get them...
an idea: whilst the armies are being armies and fighting each other, nydus ultras into the main. its fucking gg then, just hold back his army a little and he'll have nothing left.
or he'll split his army, allowing you to take it out.
either way, nydus+ultras are awesome. especially more than 3 in the network.
In my experience they seem most useful when busting through a Terran base. I don't use them in ZvP though, there's too many toss units that counter the Ultralisk. Ultras are also useful when the Terran has a mostly mech army.
On January 17 2011 23:31 Alpina wrote: From my experience in ZvT they are really good if you have them upgraded. In ZvP they sucks badly vs. any good protoss composition.
Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience)
@Marines will destroy Ultras
In an ideal situation for the Rines, they'll come out with about 30 rines
Here's a vid ideal for the ultras. Rines get torn up.
Ultralisks cost 300/200, it's not unfair to say spending 600 minerals on marines is equal or less in cost than 1 ultralisk.
So that's 12 Marines to 1 ultralisk.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides, you have 170 shots from 12 marines to kill a single ultralisk or roughly 8 seconds.
The Ultralisk on the other hand needs 4 hits to kill a stimmed, non-healed marine. This number can be a lot more funky to estimate due to splash, but assuming the ultra attacks constantly, he can only attack 9 times before his 8 second time limit is up.
Marines, when spread properly, counter ultras just fine...
I really hate when people defend completely false ideas when they have no idea what they're talking about. Some people actually come here to get advice you know. Against bio, ultralisk is a big no-no, even if there isn't a single marauder.
On January 20 2011 06:34 Jermstuddog wrote: Ultralisks cost 300/200, it's not unfair to say spending 600 minerals on marines is equal or less in cost than 1 ultralisk.
So that's 12 Marines to 1 ultralisk.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides, you have 170 shots from 12 marines to kill a single ultralisk or roughly 8 seconds.
The Ultralisk on the other hand needs 4 hits to kill a stimmed, non-healed marine. This number can be a lot more funky to estimate due to splash, but assuming the ultra attacks constantly, he can only attack 9 times before his 8 second time limit is up.
Marines, when spread properly, counter ultras just fine...
Testing it now. Edit: 1 Ultra Vs 12 Rines (NO UPGRADES) 1 Marine left with 4 HP
1 Ultra (1/1) Vs 12 Rines (0/0) Ultra wins -Persists for rest of Ultra ups
1 Ultra (1/1) Vs 12 Rines (1/1) Ultra Wins. 52 HP left.
1 Ultra 1/1 Vs 12 Rines (2/2) Ultra Wins 12 HP left
1 Ultra 1/1 Vs 12 Rines 3/3 Rines win. 2 Rines, 1 at 8 HP 1 at 13.
1 Ultra 2/2 VS 12 Rines 1/1 Ultra wins -Persists for the rest of them-
RINES HAVE UPGRADES FOR MORE HP AND STIMS
Ultra wins all after getting 2/2 Ultra wins all when 1/1 and Rines at 0/0
So basically, Rines aren't a good counter to Ultras. Tested w/ Rines clumped up and spread out. It's better to have them clumped. Ultra's splash deals more of a curved line infront of it, not a large area infront of it. Test it for yourself and you'll probably get the same results, if not, then very close.
On January 20 2011 06:41 MilesTeg wrote: I really hate when people defend completely false ideas when they have no idea what they're talking about. Some people actually come here to get advice you know. Against bio, ultralisk is a big no-no, even if there isn't a single marauder.
Miles Teg,
I'm digging the name. But know that I, Duncan Idaho, am like, 5,000 years older than you, and thus infinitely more experienced. lol
But all joking aside, I think the 200 rine army example, was a bit stacked in the ultras' favor, and it wouldn't have worked out so well if they were stimmed and kiting them. However, to say to never use them is silly. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any mono-army. Given, some units work better as mono-armies than others, but I never have a mono-ultra army, unless it's 3v3 Monday Funday. lmao :D
Edit add-in: Okay, I stand corrected, thanks for those stats, Rizzie! So, if ultras have +2 melee and the chitinous upgrade, thus 2/2, they win in a ration of 1:12? Sounds like an efficient use of supply to me, 6 to 12...
However, as the previous person between Miles' and this post said, they're great at taking out buildings. And lets face it, Terran has a crap ton of buildings towards the endgame, and base trades don't work well for zerg, at least from my experience. I mean, yeah, our hatches/lairs/hives have a lot of hp, but that (and maybe a macro hatch or two) and a few tech structures are it. Terran, they generally have several unit producing structures, not to mention supply depots (keep in mind, our supply, olords, dont count as buildings necessary to kill...).
So, building-killing units are quite smart. I say give them a try, experiment with them by mixing them into your armies. I'll agree, vs zerg or terran is the safest, and tread carefully vs protoss, due to the fear of immortals, but I will say they're great when sicked on collosi, even when surrounded by stalkers, you know, those obnoxious corrupter and ling killing balls of doom. Mix in other units such as hydra roach infestor though, of course.
On January 17 2011 23:29 Rizzie wrote: I know there's a kind of thread similar to this, something like, "Broodlords, cost effective" But I'm not worried about the cost effectiveness. I've already realized that it's hard to find a cost effective Zerg unit. My question is, are they worth getting?
What are Ultralisks lethal to? The only armies I know they could be lethal to are Protoss armor (Colossi, Stalkers) and Terran Mech (Tanks, Thors), but still, Ultralisks alone aren't hyper effective against them. Any idea on how to utilize them better?
I feel there are several advantages to brood lords for your tier 3 kill unit:
1. spire is something you're probably going to get sometime anyway, be it for mutas or corrupters. 2. map architecture as it stands tends to make brood lords better, but ultras worse (sometimes significantly so, such as on scrap station) 3. brood lords have serious range, ultras have very short range 4. broodlings can buffer hits and mess with pathing
ultras would be a lot better if the unit size was reasonable IMO
The only matchup I use ultralisks in is ZvZ, and only when I see my opponent is staying mass roach far too late in the game. In ZvP Broodlord+Roach/Hydra handles the Protoss Deathball far far better than Roach/Hydra + Ultra does, or even Roach Hydra + Ultra/Infestor. In ZvT, Broodlords work well as part of most lategame ZvT armies, since Terran field few things that handle them well if the broodlords have a sufficient swarm of zerg units underneath them.
Ultralisks themselves only have two real drawbacks are far as I can see. One is their incredibly long build time, and the other is their lousy pathing/attack behaviors. In ZvT they share upgrades with your typical early game go-to units, Ling/Baneling, which is convenient, but broodlings also use those upgrades which provide a substantial increase to broodlord DPS.
The number 1 reason to use Broodlords over ultralisks is that on most maps, ultralisks are geographically inviable. The narrow paths and tight chokes make Ultralisks worse than their normally barely-on-par performance, and makes broodlords' already nice features shine even more.
On January 20 2011 13:10 hizBALLIN wrote: The only matchup I use ultralisks in is ZvZ, and only when I see my opponent is staying mass roach far too late in the game. In ZvP Broodlord+Roach/Hydra handles the Protoss Deathball far far better than Roach/Hydra + Ultra does, or even Roach Hydra + Ultra/Infestor. In ZvT, Broodlords work well as part of most lategame ZvT armies, since Terran field few things that handle them well if the broodlords have a sufficient swarm of zerg units underneath them.
Ultralisks themselves only have two real drawbacks are far as I can see. One is their incredibly long build time, and the other is their lousy pathing/attack behaviors. In ZvT they share upgrades with your typical early game go-to units, Ling/Baneling, which is convenient, but broodlings also use those upgrades which provide a substantial increase to broodlord DPS.
The number 1 reason to use Broodlords over ultralisks is that on most maps, ultralisks are geographically inviable. The narrow paths and tight chokes make Ultralisks worse than their normally barely-on-par performance, and makes broodlords' already nice features shine even more.
Idk, brood lords are really only viable if you're making them in open air, because stalkers can blink right under them, and then its bye bye b-lords. Unless you keep them behind your roach hydra ball, but I don't like playing ball-of-doom zerg, seems our ball of doom dies to other's balls of doom. But in any case, sounds interesting... But I generally find air to be kind of risky and many games (I'm talking in ZvP) avoid the spire alltogether.
Regardless, hive teching is worth it for the ups and the cracklings, though I struggle with b-lords vs ultras or both against toss in the end-game, just seems too scary to go either way, though perhaps I need to pick one and just practice it till I make it work.
Perhaps if I quit roach rushing or climb to a level that P players hold it off regularly, I might actually see more end-games vs Protoss... hehe
vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Rofl, no.
On January 20 2011 14:15 GT wrote: vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Rofl, no.
im actually digging the ultra in zvz, as most army compositions in midgame consist of infestor/roach and a few hydras. now just cut some roaches and get some ultras -> fungal growth -> lay back and enjoy the massaker youre doing
On January 20 2011 14:15 GT wrote: vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Rofl, no.
im actually digging the ultra in zvz, as most army compositions in midgame consist of infestor/roach and a few hydras. now just cut some roaches and get some ultras -> fungal growth -> lay back and enjoy the massaker youre doing
id agree that they can be useful, but i often feel like theyre only useful in the same instances that they are in zvt. most often in games youve already won. but i did experiment with one or two of them and they are DECENT, it just seems like you have far superior options available.
On January 20 2011 14:15 GT wrote: vP Never, ever. vT Very rarely, only useful to take front loaded damage to break and only to use when ur drastically ahead to put the nail in the coffin. vZ Post a vid if you actually manage to tech and morph Ultras without getting yourself killed because no one else has
Collision mechanics are too wonky imo to rely on them when broodlords are an option at all. If they walked on ling, and lings alone, like colossi to every P ground unit, then yes it'd be worth it.
But it also relies on the metagame to take advantage of them. If you know your opponent is going heavy xxx (whatever ultras are designed to counter) then yeah, go for them.
This goes back to map pool and needing more space to utilize them. in Chokecraft 2 you just don't have as much open space as you need, so that is why standing on slings would be crucial.
Ultralisks are a really tricky unit. Mainly because its nearly impossible to get them to your opponent before they get kited. The easiest way to deal with this is to either spread creep or drop them via overlord.
On January 20 2011 06:41 MilesTeg wrote: I really hate when people defend completely false ideas when they have no idea what they're talking about. Some people actually come here to get advice you know. Against bio, ultralisk is a big no-no, even if there isn't a single marauder.
But all joking aside, I think the 200 rine army example, was a bit stacked in the ultras' favor, and it wouldn't have worked out so well if they were stimmed and kiting them. However, to say to never use them is silly. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any mono-army. Given, some units work better as mono-armies than others, but I never have a mono-ultra army, unless it's 3v3 Monday Funday. lmao :D
Edit add-in: Okay, I stand corrected, thanks for those stats, Rizzie! So, if ultras have +2 melee and the chitinous upgrade, thus 2/2, they win in a ration of 1:12? Sounds like an efficient use of supply to me, 6 to 12...
However, as the previous person between Miles' and this post said, they're great at taking out buildings. And lets face it, Terran has a crap ton of buildings towards the endgame, and base trades don't work well for zerg, at least from my experience. I mean, yeah, our hatches/lairs/hives have a lot of hp, but that (and maybe a macro hatch or two) and a few tech structures are it. Terran, they generally have several unit producing structures, not to mention supply depots (keep in mind, our supply, olords, dont count as buildings necessary to kill...).
So, building-killing units are quite smart. I say give them a try, experiment with them by mixing them into your armies. I'll agree, vs zerg or terran is the safest, and tread carefully vs protoss, due to the fear of immortals, but I will say they're great when sicked on collosi, even when surrounded by stalkers, you know, those obnoxious corrupter and ling killing balls of doom. Mix in other units such as hydra roach infestor though, of course.
Why you're very welcome for the stats. All of those stats were given with NO KITING OR MICRO. (Caps to get the point across) When tests are done, they should have no human interaction whatsoever, to make it as fair as possible. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting Ultras only against a bio-ball. I highly suggest Blings+Cracklings for that. Much more effective and easier to replace
The main reason no one uses ultras much is because they are bulky as hell, and frankly as of right now, broodlords just own so much harder...
Comparison:
DPS... too lazy, but I'll say ultras have higher dps to give them SOMETHING nice :D Movement. Broodlords are slower, but can move anywhere as air, aka skipping ledges and etc, but IS worse than ultra. Doesn't fail in movement in army engagements however. Ultras are opposite, general good movement, but as it is bulky can fail pathing pretty dam hard. Broodlords have awesome range, doesn't detract damage from other units. Ultralisks are melee units. Also very fat, so not all lings can attack. Broodlords (thanks to range) are hard to target when behind a MAX SUPPLY ARMY. Ultralisks are a huge target Spire is useful for corruptors, mutas. Ultralisk cavern is only for ultras. Ultralisks share upgrades Broodlings share upgrades Broodlords can utilize range to kill turtling. Ultralisks... can't really do anything about turtling. ---- EDIT, because all noobs like mentioning broodlords get sniped by blink stalkers, I'll make an extra piece. Yah they do die to stalkers, which means their entire freaking army excluding colossus is targetting JUST BROODLORDS. Your army can wipe that out, as they are taking like no dmg. No one is pro enough to control all of the stalkers to make sure they never overkill a broodlord, or have stalkers at the back who don't even have range to not attack. You wipe out colossus with your corruptors, they have stalkers all shooting at the sky, your ground army wins hard. And frankly, if your army is big enough, blink stalkers cant even fully reach all of the broodlords, unless they go directly in the middle (which is just plain stupid, as it gives all of your units the advantage to shoot, aka. no units at the back just trying to move to the front)
EPT
