EPTUltralisks; Are they worth it? - Page 6
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kidcrash89
198 Posts
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Rizzie
Canada18 Posts
2) I saw a post about using Ultras w/ Nydus worms. I tried it out and won once. More or less, the Ultras were major harass. 3) TY for the help guys. I mixed Ultras in with Cracklings and Hydras. Totally ripped up a Toss 200/200 army. (After respawning. xD) | ||
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On January 18 2011 19:47 Noob3rt wrote: The only time I've ever lost using Ultralisks was playing against mass Immortals. You cannot simply just use Ultralisks, you need back up units like Infestors or Broodlords. I use Ultralisks to tank and deal damage while Hydralisks, or Broodlords throw out mass damage, or even allow the banelings to come through and roflstomp the Marines/Tanks. Why on earth would you use Ultras to purely tank dmg? They take forever to build, are extremely gas heavy, and require at minimum the armor upgrade at ultra cavern, and their AI reminds me of dragoons in BW. You are much better off tanking with mass roaches- much more cost effective, faster, ranged, and can be replenished quickly. Literally the only advantage ultras have is they require less larvae, but by the time they enter the game you should have plenty stockpiled already. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Their insanely high armor is also great against heavy marine armies, lings, etc. They are expensive but do have their niche as tanks. They can do a lot of damage too of course if you mass them, but it probably isn't the best idea. It would probably be better just to use Ultralisks as tanks and couple them with Hydralisks for dps/anti-air (along with queens for heal and aa ofc). | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
other than that. there not that great. but i think those 3 situations are plenty common anyway. | ||
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Daria
Australia500 Posts
On January 17 2011 23:31 Alpina wrote: From my experience in ZvT they are really good if you have them upgraded. In ZvP they sucks badly vs. any good protoss composition. Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience) | ||
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X-Codes
135 Posts
On January 19 2011 12:25 LyRa wrote: Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience) Uh... no... Full-upgrade Marines do 9 damage, full-upgrade Ultralisks have 6 armor and 500 HP. That's something on the order of 170 marine shots to bring down an Ultralisk, depending on HP regen. In order to do that effectively, even with Stim, you'd need to have something like 20 marines to 1 ultralisk in order to bring them down fast enough to not get steamrolled by them, instead. If you mean that MMM destroys ultras, then that's closer to the truth. Ultras need backup to deal with mass marauders, and that usually comes in the form of zerglings, banelings, and infestors. | ||
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orcslayermac
United States138 Posts
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Eschaton
United States1245 Posts
On January 18 2011 00:18 DeltruS wrote: They seem pretty cost effective here. They do? The commentators were constantly referring to how the cost of Morrow's lost units was greater than that of Kiwi's. And Morrow was up in base numbers as well. | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
1st: This video is old, perhaps patches have adjusted things, one thing being the ultra's now immune to snare, mind-control, etc, ie fungal growth, neural parasite, 250mm cannons, and I also want to say force fields can be trampled, though that may just be the collosus . 2nd, the ultras are poorly micro'd. 3rd, no upgrades, and usually getting the chitinous armor +2 is a given, not to mention any other melee/carapace upgrades the typical zerg player may pick up along the way. Given, the other units may not have had upgrades, but it is known that upgrades aren't necessarily one-for-one, ie +1 atk mutas vs +1 atk vikings have very different outcomes from +0 vs +0. 4th, Ultras apparently are always alone and never with support units. I could probably make a similar video about thors by themselves and collosi by themselves. Yes, thos and collosi have range, which is nice, but ultra vs collosi and ultra vs thor, ultras I believe win, assuming they're in the open, with no support units. But anyways... Now to critique each example: 5U's vs rine-rauder: 1st, any zerg that charges stimmed units is stupid. 2nd, the AI really did suck, and notice PSY got off a few free hits since they moved back to home position and he shot at them from full range back after grabbing them, several times in his example. 4 U's vs roach hydra: 1250-550, against 1600-900, ultras lost:2, for a net loss of 800-600, seems balanced sentry stalker vs ultra: Um, hello, what kind of decent player goes, "Oh dum-dee-dum-dee-dum, he ff'd my melee units. Me thinks I'll just keep on attacking and not pull back... Whatever, that's true for any melee unit. Okay, so range > melee? No shit... That's why melee needs range support, duh... immortal vs ultra: Well, perhaps this is somewhat scathing, but realize armored units are not the "counter" to immortals, and with that 10dmg to shield max thing, you really need fast, low dmg swings, a la ling or a la hydra. Any decent zerg will have lings/hydras on the immortals, with his ultras on something else, at least until the immortal's shields are down. collosi vs ultra: Oh, he's on a cliff. I should keep hanging out near the cliff with my ultra and let him cliff micro. Right... You know, tanks are crap too. One muta can take out infinite numbers of tanks. Thus, don't make tanks, ever, QED. lolol infestor vs ultra: No longer true, ultras are now immune to nueral parasite. ultras vs blords: Air vs ground, that's so on the money... Again, mutas > tanks, never make tanks? right... So, hopefully that puts your fears to rest, Ultras are awesome, don't let PSY tell you differently. Furthermore, I think he was being mostly comical and sarcasitc rather than deathly serious. The true story here is to micro well, and have a good unit mix. Ultras are awesome, but not when thrown blindly across the map in an a-move, and especially when done this way with no other supporting units. This video is so misused and frankly, pisses me off, if you didn't already notice. I love PSY, but people need to know to think for themselves, and I swear he's just screwing off with this video as opposed to honestly telling people to never, ever, get them... | ||
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Fir3fly
Australia251 Posts
its fucking gg then, just hold back his army a little and he'll have nothing left. or he'll split his army, allowing you to take it out. either way, nydus+ultras are awesome. especially more than 3 in the network. | ||
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Miko
United States7 Posts
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Rizzie
Canada18 Posts
On January 19 2011 12:25 LyRa wrote: Marines will destroy Ultras, brood lords do better in ZvT (from my experience) @Marines will destroy Ultras In an ideal situation for the Rines, they'll come out with about 30 rines Here's a vid ideal for the ultras. Rines get torn up. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
So that's 12 Marines to 1 ultralisk. Assuming 3/3 on both sides, you have 170 shots from 12 marines to kill a single ultralisk or roughly 8 seconds. The Ultralisk on the other hand needs 4 hits to kill a stimmed, non-healed marine. This number can be a lot more funky to estimate due to splash, but assuming the ultra attacks constantly, he can only attack 9 times before his 8 second time limit is up. Marines, when spread properly, counter ultras just fine... | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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SquintzQ_Q
Canada2 Posts
Use a different unit to attack other units, leave ultras on the wings for small unit flanks since they have a nice splash damage. The Ultra is incredible against buildings, use him for that. | ||
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Rizzie
Canada18 Posts
On January 20 2011 06:34 Jermstuddog wrote: Ultralisks cost 300/200, it's not unfair to say spending 600 minerals on marines is equal or less in cost than 1 ultralisk. So that's 12 Marines to 1 ultralisk. Assuming 3/3 on both sides, you have 170 shots from 12 marines to kill a single ultralisk or roughly 8 seconds. The Ultralisk on the other hand needs 4 hits to kill a stimmed, non-healed marine. This number can be a lot more funky to estimate due to splash, but assuming the ultra attacks constantly, he can only attack 9 times before his 8 second time limit is up. Marines, when spread properly, counter ultras just fine... Testing it now. Edit: 1 Ultra Vs 12 Rines (NO UPGRADES) 1 Marine left with 4 HP 1 Ultra (1/1) Vs 12 Rines (0/0) Ultra wins -Persists for rest of Ultra ups 1 Ultra (1/1) Vs 12 Rines (1/1) Ultra Wins. 52 HP left. 1 Ultra 1/1 Vs 12 Rines (2/2) Ultra Wins 12 HP left 1 Ultra 1/1 Vs 12 Rines 3/3 Rines win. 2 Rines, 1 at 8 HP 1 at 13. 1 Ultra 2/2 VS 12 Rines 1/1 Ultra wins -Persists for the rest of them- RINES HAVE UPGRADES FOR MORE HP AND STIMS Ultra wins all after getting 2/2 Ultra wins all when 1/1 and Rines at 0/0 So basically, Rines aren't a good counter to Ultras. Tested w/ Rines clumped up and spread out. It's better to have them clumped. Ultra's splash deals more of a curved line infront of it, not a large area infront of it. Test it for yourself and you'll probably get the same results, if not, then very close. | ||
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ImmortalTofu
United States1254 Posts
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
On January 20 2011 06:41 MilesTeg wrote: I really hate when people defend completely false ideas when they have no idea what they're talking about. Some people actually come here to get advice you know. Against bio, ultralisk is a big no-no, even if there isn't a single marauder. Miles Teg, I'm digging the name. But know that I, Duncan Idaho, am like, 5,000 years older than you, and thus infinitely more experienced. lol But all joking aside, I think the 200 rine army example, was a bit stacked in the ultras' favor, and it wouldn't have worked out so well if they were stimmed and kiting them. However, to say to never use them is silly. In fact, I wouldn't recommend any mono-army. Given, some units work better as mono-armies than others, but I never have a mono-ultra army, unless it's 3v3 Monday Funday. lmao :D Edit add-in: Okay, I stand corrected, thanks for those stats, Rizzie! So, if ultras have +2 melee and the chitinous upgrade, thus 2/2, they win in a ration of 1:12? Sounds like an efficient use of supply to me, 6 to 12... However, as the previous person between Miles' and this post said, they're great at taking out buildings. And lets face it, Terran has a crap ton of buildings towards the endgame, and base trades don't work well for zerg, at least from my experience. I mean, yeah, our hatches/lairs/hives have a lot of hp, but that (and maybe a macro hatch or two) and a few tech structures are it. Terran, they generally have several unit producing structures, not to mention supply depots (keep in mind, our supply, olords, dont count as buildings necessary to kill...). So, building-killing units are quite smart. I say give them a try, experiment with them by mixing them into your armies. I'll agree, vs zerg or terran is the safest, and tread carefully vs protoss, due to the fear of immortals, but I will say they're great when sicked on collosi, even when surrounded by stalkers, you know, those obnoxious corrupter and ling killing balls of doom. Mix in other units such as hydra roach infestor though, of course. | ||
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Rizzie
Canada18 Posts
On January 17 2011 23:29 Rizzie wrote: I know there's a kind of thread similar to this, something like, "Broodlords, cost effective" But I'm not worried about the cost effectiveness. I've already realized that it's hard to find a cost effective Zerg unit. My question is, are they worth getting? What are Ultralisks lethal to? The only armies I know they could be lethal to are Protoss armor (Colossi, Stalkers) and Terran Mech (Tanks, Thors), but still, Ultralisks alone aren't hyper effective against them. Any idea on how to utilize them better? HUGE EDIT!: Because obviously everyone goes straight to the video and doesn't bother to read what I have to ask, I'm putting up, not one, but TWO replays where I (EoSDShiki) utilize Ultralisks against the Protoss (Whirlwindfox) [Also he's my friend]. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/128434-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/128435-1v1-protoss-zerg-crossfire Feel free to download and watch. | ||
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