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On January 24 2011 14:36 Reborn8u wrote: So now your in diamond and you have become proficient or mastered basically 0 of the skills that make a person good at starcraft. Whats the point? BTW as toss when I scout this (or their empty base) I look for cannon rush in my base and below my cliffs while going 3 gate zealot rush to counter. Usually, once I've held it off, I get a sentry out and I rush to dt's after that and take my expo.  BM guaranteed. I just go into standard pvp after that (colossus and lots of gateways) to ensure the win.
just my experience, but standard reaction from a fail proxy 2gate, is fall back on forge + 4 cannons at the ramp. they turtle up, and tech dts about 80% of the time.
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On January 24 2011 14:21 DanceSC wrote:
scrap station is the worst to 2g on because of the rush distance...
and the 2g proper timing comes around the 6 - 6:30 mark
if your talking about proxy 2g all in, then yes.
proxy 1g is a sacrifice you make by saying "im going to put my second gate + cyber in my main, but use the 100m(pylon) and 150m(gate) as a sacrifice to deal as much economic damage as possible to my opponent."
yeah i was referring to proxy as its really strong when you do it by the set of destructible rocks as this isn't seen when people send out scouts and it can get you 5 zlots before a full block.
i generally still go 3 gate robo because i just feel uncomfortable warping in two units at a time, but its still viable.
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On January 24 2011 14:50 JRICE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 14:21 DanceSC wrote:
scrap station is the worst to 2g on because of the rush distance...
and the 2g proper timing comes around the 6 - 6:30 mark
if your talking about proxy 2g all in, then yes.
proxy 1g is a sacrifice you make by saying "im going to put my second gate + cyber in my main, but use the 100m(pylon) and 150m(gate) as a sacrifice to deal as much economic damage as possible to my opponent." yeah i was referring to proxy as its really strong when you do it by the set of destructible rocks as this isn't seen when people send out scouts and it can get you 5 zlots before a full block. i generally still go 3 gate robo because i just feel uncomfortable warping in two units at a time, but its still viable.
yeah very true,
there was a thread a while back about the differences between a 3g robo and a 2g robo. they both lead to the same late game, the only difference is the timing push. my biggest problem transitioning out of 2g robo was building the third gate. A couple games i went 3 bases and only 2 gates -_- ... the sad thing was that i made it that far.
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Its interesting how much annoyance (or rage) the OP has generated.
Some people have pointed out this strategy would rarely work against a strong player. The other way to think about it is you will not be a strong player until you learn to detect and respond to these types of strategies.
That aside, I see variations of this strategy as perfectly "legitimate" or even highly viable in certain situations. Variations of the proxy-gate inside the main are seen in professional games. All this means is that "standard play" must recognise and adapt to the possibility of such a strategy being used in any given game. It is great to throw this type of thing in once in a while just so your opponent knows you "might" do it, and has to waste APM/mineral collecting time scouting and worrying!
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I think doing builds that only work against players who make key mistakes is a great way to get better.
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On January 24 2011 15:04 typedef struct wrote:
I think doing builds that only work against players who make key mistakes is a great way to get better.
Then how will you get better against players who don't make mistakes like this?
You want to learn to react. Not to hope.
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I think this strategy will only work against stupid player or somebody that never got proxy ever. I play zerg and I always scout in my base with a drone at a good timing to see if I'm getting cheese.
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On January 24 2011 15:52 TitCriss wrote:
I think this strategy will only work against stupid player or somebody that never got proxy ever. I play zerg and I always scout in my base with a drone at a good timing to see if I'm getting cheese.
hell you dont even need a drone. just put an overlord at the entrance and you are done.
the 9 overlord should be able to scout any further and the 13 scout should take care of the rest.
You are right though good scouting just shuts this down.
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On January 24 2011 15:51 HotKimchi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 15:04 typedef struct wrote:
I think doing builds that only work against players who make key mistakes is a great way to get better. Then how will you get better against players who don't make mistakes like this? You want to learn to react. Not to hope.
Ever heard of sarcasm?
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On January 24 2011 18:25 TearDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 15:51 HotKimchi wrote:On January 24 2011 15:04 typedef struct wrote:
I think doing builds that only work against players who make key mistakes is a great way to get better. Then how will you get better against players who don't make mistakes like this? You want to learn to react. Not to hope. Ever heard of sarcasm?
Let me get this straight. I give my opinion on a forum for strategy and you bash it with something on a whim?
I bring up a point to people who may of read his post and you post something completely worthless?
Yeah I have heard of sarcasm. Have you heard of relevance?
Other than this guy trying to be smooth. I am expressing my opinion that blatant cheese doesn't make you a better player. It just gets you quick wins.
When you don't play a drawn out game you don't learn how to react to an opponents build or units comp.
All ins are great sometimes and do have their places. However ONLY doing this will make you a one trick pony. You do what you gotta do, but if you want to become a well rounded player you should play as such.
This is what post should be on the forums. Not some mindless trash like "have you ever heard of sarcasm?" That introduces nothing to a thread, even if it is a troll thread.
Team Liquid is a forum where players come to get starcraft news or become a better player. The admins try damn hard to make this a decent forum. Show some respect and contribute just like they do with pertinent information.
I really hope you are mature enough to recognize this.
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Are you guys really this stupid?
Bacon-X: "Woah Woah Woah, Read my signature not about to quit starcraft, been my favorite game since I laid my hands on it about 6 years ago when I started playing broodwar."
Bacon-X: "Again, I had no knowledge of this... (only got the game 3 weeks ago)."
Scouting information can tell you what the opponent is doing. What does the above scouting information say?
It either tells you that in six years of brood war, he never once saw a proxy 2 gate. Or, it tells you that you all don't know how to interpret scouting information. Which is appropriate, because lack of scouting = fail to cheese is kind of the point of this thread. Which makes this thread both recursive AND an analogy for the strategy that it so-recently discovered.
We could go further. He reads liquipedia, but... never heard of the proxy two gate? Then he shows up with a screen shot that says 1337? And you guys believe that is... an amazing coincidence? But it's not really necessary.
Bacon X just proxy gated everyone in this thread. You have all just been forum cheesed. You saw him plant the pylon, but you made the fatal mistake of chasing the probe! Everyone knows you can't catch the probe. You have to attack the structures it builds. Like i did. Above.
What is worse, through your collective incompetence, I have been second hand cheesed, as I am forced to un-lurk in order to point all this out. And as you all know from smoking, second hand cheese is just as deadly as first hand cheese. It just takes longer.
And since I'm here, lol at the guy who asks for a diamond replay, gets it, then asks for a 2k diamond replay, gets THAT, and still wont admit Bacon X owned him.
I say all of this with love.
Now back to the recording studio. If you suckers need me, me and Bacon X will be planting proxy pylons in some chicks back behind the mineral line.
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On January 24 2011 14:41 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 11:21 TibblesEvilCat wrote:HOW DO I BEAT THIS WHEN I SCOUT IT? as zerg -- as terran -- as protoss please  protoss - send 1 scout to target his probe, pull workers off gas (if any) chrono boost zeals out, and put down forge if early scout. concept: if you scout nothing in opponents base it is either forge or proxy gate, so you should instinctively put down forge expecting a cannon rush.. once you get 2 cannons up around your mineral line, send your zeals to your opponents base to target workers.
Agree with throwing down forge - nevertheless what I like to do is cannon-rush my opponent reactively. You can defend very well with your 1 gate zealots and 2 cannons. Once these are down, I go into cannon-rush-mode. Normally nothing that they can do about it, nearly impossible to predict.
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I suggest you do the xel naga a pylon down the cliff trick every single time you are on xel naga
Dont commit to the tactic, just make sure the economy of the enemy is destroyed (as he has pulled off his workers)
And if he does not pull his workers, fine, you boost zealots and commit to it.
I just see no efficient way of holding it off.
This tactic cannot "fail". As soon as your gateway begins contruction, you have succeeded. Just like probe harrass, just zap the scv building the depot, opponent will at the very least going to pull a worker off the line.
He will pull his workers, and even if your gateway is almost killed, build another one then cancel.
Cancelling 3 gateways=111 and losing 1 pylon 100 so you've lost 211 minerals but the enemy pulled workers off the line, whatever his gameplay may be it is now destroyed.
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On January 24 2011 23:00 DestroManiak wrote:
I suggest you do the xel naga a pylon down the cliff trick every single time you are on xel naga
Dont commit to the tactic, just make sure the economy of the enemy is destroyed (as he has pulled off his workers)
And if he does not pull his workers, fine, you boost zealots and commit to it.
I just see no efficient way of holding it off.
This tactic cannot "fail". As soon as your gateway begins contruction, you have succeeded. Just like probe harrass, just zap the scv building the depot, opponent will at the very least going to pull a worker off the line.
He will pull his workers, and even if your gateway is almost killed, build another one then cancel.
Cancelling 3 gateways=111 and losing 1 pylon 100 so you've lost 211 minerals but the enemy pulled workers off the line, whatever his gameplay may be it is now destroyed.
This is pretty much the most annoying harassment known to man, as if it works well(aka, not scouted) it wins instantly, while even if it is, it still hurts the opponent at least as much as it hurts the toss to do it. Of course, me being a toss, i do this all the time.
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a 2 gate proxy rush should NEVER work against a terran if you wall off.
as soon as you scout it, just lift your command centre from your main to your natural along with all your scv's. now there's a wall between the protoss's gateways and his own base.
auto-repair the supply depots that the zealots are trying to kill whilst making a few marines.
run a few marines into his completely undefended base and gg.
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EPT
