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A 14 hatch as compared to a 12 pool has one extra larvae at 3:45, and 2 extra larvae at 4:00, and is one larvae behind at 4:15.
Of course, Ret hasn't explicitly claimed that the 30 seconds from 3:45 to 4:15 are the key to the entire match -- I do agree that fleeze is rationalizing his preconceived beliefs, rather than making a fair estimation of what Ret claims or a fair judgment of reality.
Jdismoreglass' threads never tested realistic builds -- there was no test for going hard Zerglings before 5 minutes, or squeezing in Spine Crawlers or getting gas. The larvae advantage of a middle pool FE build vanishes if you can't keep up constant 2 hatch + 2 queen production -- something that will happen if you don't make 25 drones very early, or opt to spend a lot of money on things like getting quick Spine Crawlers along with Metabolic Boost.
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I don't know if people can assume what ret/idra did and didn't do during testing, I have faith that they would try every build including 11 pool/etc.
I also would point out that not only are Idra/ret doing testing but almost every single Korean zerg is doing their own testing simply by playing on the ladder and they are almost all still going 14 hatch in the GSL. If there is one group of people I'd trust with figuring out how to survive cheese/all-ins it is the people who play on the Korean Ladder as it is ruthless.
That being said, I think if Blizzard were to change something I agree that decreasing the build time for spine crawler would be a good move. I see that making this marine/scv all in rush easier to hold off and not really "breaking" anything else.
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On December 08 2010 04:30 Leviwtf wrote:That being said, I think if Blizzard were to change something I agree that decreasing the build time for spine crawler would be a good move. I see that making this marine/scv all in rush easier to hold off and not really "breaking" anything else.
Frankly, I'm currently under the impression that the only serious obstacle (other than experience) to holding off the Marine/SCV rush is that people are balking at making units "blindly" -- didn't one of the pros already mention that you could stop the rush if you started massing Zerglings before it started coming?
EDIT: Ah, it was right there in the OP. I forgot. 
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On December 08 2010 04:29 Hurkyl wrote:
A 14 hatch as compared to a 12 pool has one extra larvae at 3:45, and 2 extra larvae at 4:00, and is one larvae behind at 4:15.
Of course, Ret hasn't explicitly claimed that the 30 seconds from 3:45 to 4:15 are the key to the entire match -- I do agree that fleeze is rationalizing his preconceived beliefs, rather than making a fair estimation of what Ret claims or a fair judgment of reality.
Jdismoreglass' threads never tested realistic builds -- there was no test for going hard Zerglings before 5 minutes, or squeezing in Spine Crawlers or getting gas. The larvae advantage of a middle pool FE build vanishes if you can't keep up constant 2 hatch + 2 queen production -- something that will happen if you don't make 25 drones very early, or opt to spend a lot of money on things like getting quick Spine Crawlers along with Metabolic Boost.
i'm just stating the FACTS that those 11 pool admirers love to ignore and the maker of the strat fails to answer.
the 11 pool is actually a really bad build if you get pressured early on (because you want to make drones) and an 18 hatch is way too late as it is NOT completed when you opponent arrives at your door.
also strongly agree on your second point as it's one of my main arguments.
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Yeah getting the hatch one minute later is actually crucial - the marine/SCV rush comes really early, and you need that spine to be started before they get there or you're probably fucked. Literally a 10 sec decrease to the build time of a spine would probably completely fix this rush.
Even look at NesTea, who lost yesterday to bunker rushes - set 5 could have been held EASILY if he had pulled 5-6 drones to help the spine. I guess he underestimated the repair of the SCV (which is very significant).
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On December 08 2010 04:40 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 04:29 Hurkyl wrote:
A 14 hatch as compared to a 12 pool has one extra larvae at 3:45, and 2 extra larvae at 4:00, and is one larvae behind at 4:15.
Of course, Ret hasn't explicitly claimed that the 30 seconds from 3:45 to 4:15 are the key to the entire match -- I do agree that fleeze is rationalizing his preconceived beliefs, rather than making a fair estimation of what Ret claims or a fair judgment of reality.
Jdismoreglass' threads never tested realistic builds -- there was no test for going hard Zerglings before 5 minutes, or squeezing in Spine Crawlers or getting gas. The larvae advantage of a middle pool FE build vanishes if you can't keep up constant 2 hatch + 2 queen production -- something that will happen if you don't make 25 drones very early, or opt to spend a lot of money on things like getting quick Spine Crawlers along with Metabolic Boost. i'm just stating the FACTS that those 11 pool admirers love to ignore and the maker of the strat fails to answer. the 11 pool is actually a really bad build if you get pressured early on (because you want to make drones) and an 18 hatch is way too late as it is NOT completed when you opponent arrives at your door. also strongly agree on your second point as it's one of my main arguments.
My second point? That you're rationalizing your preconceived beliefs?
Anyways, while you are stating facts, you are not stating all of the facts, which paints an incomplete -- and possibly misleading picture.
e.g. one of the things a middle pool build can do with its extra larvae with the Spawn Larvae is make the same number of Zerglings, but have an extra Drone or two. So while it loses its inherent Larvae advantage due to wasted capacity, it can recover it through an income advantage.
(Also, it can recover it from making extra Zerglings instead of the Drone in a situation where the Hatch first build would have to sacrifice many drones to survive a rush)
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I do 11 overpool into speedlings. The queen comes out super early giving you a round of larvae to make lings/drones depending on scouting. If I see a 2 rax, I pump lings.
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On December 08 2010 04:29 Hurkyl wrote:
A 14 hatch as compared to a 12 pool has one extra larvae at 3:45, and 2 extra larvae at 4:00, and is one larvae behind at 4:15.
Of course, Ret hasn't explicitly claimed that the 30 seconds from 3:45 to 4:15 are the key to the entire match -- I do agree that fleeze is rationalizing his preconceived beliefs, rather than making a fair estimation of what Ret claims or a fair judgment of reality.
Jdismoreglass' threads never tested realistic builds -- there was no test for going hard Zerglings before 5 minutes, or squeezing in Spine Crawlers or getting gas. The larvae advantage of a middle pool FE build vanishes if you can't keep up constant 2 hatch + 2 queen production -- something that will happen if you don't make 25 drones very early, or opt to spend a lot of money on things like getting quick Spine Crawlers along with Metabolic Boost.
I think you are missing his point, that the tests he published are just based on being left completely alone and allowed to build only drones. It is just a shell, he isnt saying that you should only build drones, this the build order doesnt include things like lings or spine crawlers (non-eco related items) which you would only put down if your scouting tells you to. It is just a general shell that combines great economy with an early pool for potential defense. Another great thing about this build is it essentially removes the rock paper scissors element from ZvZ, and allows you to take it to a macro game versus ANY situation.He is purely testing the economic limitations of the builds, and showing that the 11 overpool is basically the same economy as a 14 hatch 15 pool but with more larvae earlier on.
The absolute only point that ive seen that makes sense against the 11 overpool is if the expo doesnt finish before the rush gets there, although also remember that a hatch can take a lot of abuse, so if you see the attack coming, and then build one larvae round of lings, your next larvae spawn of lings will probably be done before they kill your hatchery, and if you build a spine crawler so that its just ready to plop down when the expo finishes i feel like it should be no problem.
Also keep in mind, that when an opponent scouts your 11 pool, chances are they arent going to all-in rush you, and by the time you drop the 18 hatch if you feel the need you could make one pair of zerglings to deny their scouting.
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I think the requirement to flip a coin balances the ability to make all units from the same structure. Everybody needs a better way to scout terran earlier tho.
Steps of war is retarded.
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Ugh, I was really excited for the discussion after reading the OP. But after reading most and skimming some, by the time I got to the last page I'm pretty disappointed overall. I used to wonder all the time why most of the pros never hung out and talked strategy in these threads (no not upcoming tourney builds, just general talk and balance). But the answer is getting more and more clear, that most of these threads are no place for intelligent conversation.
Far to many people just came in here to say "QQ zerg" for no apparently reason, other than to perhaps flex their intent of degrading this community. And others are posting responses as if they either did not even read the OP, or have a level of knowledge about the race and this specific matchup that has me questioning their motives for trying to even post in a strategy thread with anything other than a question.
Some, or to be less PC, basically THE best (english speaking) zergs in the world right now have spent an entire week working on every possible variation of this specific issue. For those who dont know what that means, using a standard-ish practice schedule its likely around 84 hours each, so a combined 168 hours on one specific matchup, and one specific play style. Its almost insulting to every person who has to read these posts when someone in their infinite sub 40 posts wisdom decides that its inconceivable they tried pool first. I mean really?
I guess ranting doesn't help much. But its just the arrogance, ignorance, or some combination of the two that comes across when people post some "definitive" criticism/answer like "loL idiots pool furst!" as if they just outplayed the pros and balanced the issue in the time it took them to register their TL forum account.
Obviously this whole thread isn't garbage. And there are some very well thought out posts from people who know far more than me and my limited <100 game zerg career. As well as people who seem to be legitimately trying to come up with solutions, who just don't end up grasping the entirety of situation, through no fault of their own lack of knowledge/experience. But honest effort is good! Like the idea to go straight macro hatch, yea you might have enough larva to hold off the initial pressure, but it will be scouted, marine production immediately cut into a ultra fast CC resting safely behind free bunkers. Which will turn into an even stronger all-in on a slightly adjusted time-table ( or just a gigantic ECO lead depending on what the map/situation favors ). So you more or less are just burying a drone and throwing a 300 mineral tombstone on top of it, in terms of effectiveness.
I'm also not saying, well the pros couldn't figure it out, so lets throw our hands up in the air and shelve the game until the next patch. I always encourage the mindset that these issues are challenges to overcome, and a solution exists within the means given. (Although the rational part of me is starting to doubt it in this case). A lot of really bright people have done a lot of amazing tests and number crunching, so please take the time to read through it, do tests of your own, or even ask some good questions to point them in new directions if your not a mathy person.
These are the problems as far as I can see it so far, for those those who don't see the issue. Also a note, this and the above is with steppes of war in mind, obviously the grim nature of this varies or becomes almost not an issue on some maps and spawn locations.
- In my opinion the skill it takes on each side to SCV all-in and hold it off as zerg varies between infinite and very lopsided. Even if its stoppable this is a real balance concern.
- The rush requires almost no investment and can be followed through, delayed, or abandoned almost flawlessly from a high level player depending on how the zerg is defending.
- The mule can artificially create an economy long enough to sustain a follow-up game ending all-in as long as at least modest damage is done.
- Its anywhere from very to completely unscoutable. And can be changed into a FE so efficiently that saying its a coinflip to defend/get ahead is generous.
- Its not just about holding off the force, its about its economical potential as well.
This really became longer and more of a rant then I intended, almost could have been its own thread but its going here. I just started typing and 2 min later it was a page. Part of the frustration I think stems from the recent GSL series, in which I feel far more talented players had games basically stolen from them. So when I see the flaming from people who don't even comprehend the situation in discussion/strategy threads its upsetting. And id really like to see what kind of solutions can be reached when the dedicated posters here don't have to spend half their time defending established concepts and dealing with flame-derailments.
+ Show Spoiler +Its entirely possible some information I've presented here isnt 100% accurate or im missing things based on my limited zerg play. But these are the trends im noticing =P
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Seems like 6 pool would be a better option than 14 hatch, at least use the short map to your advantage and its more of a gamble than straight up loss. This map is retarded though and ridiculously unfair for zerg, what is Blizzard thinking looking at this. What is GSL thinking forcing people to play on it. The map is pure garbage.
On the game with Nestea the terran is at his natural's ramp at about 3:50 so even if you 11 or 12 pool all you will have is slow lings and they won't be enough to hold off decently micro'd marines/scvs. Even if you bend over backwards to get enough units out in time all terran as to do is not attack and soar way ahead of you.
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I don't think anyone meant 14 pool 15 hatch. They meant the 13 pool/18 hatch which has been shown many times to be economically similar.
I run the build all the time and you're 100% right that both 14hatch and 14 pool 15 hatch will leave you at a disadvantage. 13pool/18 hatch is safe against the 2-rax pressure.
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SPOiLER GSL
+ Show Spoiler +
its same versus toss, look the game in GSL ro8 jinro and Marineking
CHoya make good pressure on game 1, he expand and 4 min after terran with just with one base with scv and mm push and win ... the same on delta with marineking vs MC, its terran problem not protoss or zerg
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On December 08 2010 16:11 iEchoic wrote:
I don't think anyone meant 14 pool 15 hatch. They meant the 13 pool/18 hatch which has been shown many times to be economically similar.
Someone on PlayXP disagrees. Here is a comparison they did between 14 hatch and 14 pool in Xel'Naga Caverns.
1. Hatch first
14 hatch after gas trick, build hatch at natural.
Pool then gas at 15.
6 lings + queen, then make drones non-stop.
Hatch finishes at 3:47, take off all drones off gas as soon as you gather 100 gas for ling speed
Results at 5:30
26 drones, 2 queens, 6 lings, 6 larvae, 35 seconds left in ling speed
2. Pool first
14 pool after gas trick, assuming that you build hatch after your initial lings
Build drones non-stop after 6 lings, mine 100 gas then take off all drones
Pool finishes at 3:01, build hatchery at natural 3:52
Ling speed finishes at 5:05 (i.e. ling speed finishes 60 seconds earlier than hatch first)
Results at 5:30
22 drones, 2 queens, hatch about to complete with 8 drones transferring, 5 larvae (including main and natural)
Summary
Ling speed finishes 60 seconds earlier with 4 less drones for pool first.
Assuming 4 warp gate finishes at 5:30 then you can see that it is difficult for 14 pool to fend it off (spine crawler takes 50 seconds to complete, and protoss will come in before 5:40)
Reasons for testing (GSL Spoiler):
+ Show Spoiler +To see the timing as to why FruitDealer was struggling against HongUn's 4 warp gate then losing to dark templars on Blistering Sands
Also, pool first builds vs T gives you lower larvae and drone count thus you're at a disadvantage later in the game.
Conclusion: hatch first is better than pool first for mid game after fending off 2 rax pressure.
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people who keep talking about 'hatch first' really don't have a clue.. 2 rax constant marines dominates pool first so bad because there's only so few larve off 1 hatch untill after the first queen inject...the marines can just push you back non stop till that first inject finishes and you are in danger of being bunker blocked
alright but then why not go inbase hatch to stop the 2 rax? if the issue is larvae why not make a hatch inside your base that will be easier to defend?
However, I still have a problem with the in base hatch because getting that natural up asap is crucial to keeping up with terran and toss. 1 base zerg vs 1 base T or P is rough.
ALSO, if the terran does not see a fast hatch..most likely he is not going to marine scv rush you but take the econ advantage with more workers or FE...so yeah this sucks.
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A honest question: Is building a hatch inside your main as opposed to your natural viable?
Secondly: I have the feeling that NesTea didn't treat the all-in appropriately in Game 5. He could have survived if he pulled more drones. Why are not more players doing this?
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On December 08 2010 17:22 goto wrote:
A honest question: Is building a hatch inside your main as opposed to your natural viable?
Secondly: I have the feeling that NesTea didn't treat the all-in appropriately in Game 5. He could have survived if he pulled more drones. Why are not more players doing this?
it's viable if the opponent commits to the scv/marine all in (much easier to defend). But if he just expands then your behind due to lack of hatch in natural.
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this is what ive been telling ppl aswell when they say "u should stop 15hatch all the time cause terran can just stop it by 12rax14rax"
on top of what ret said theres big possibility u get contained in bunkers on bottom of the ramp when u 1base
On December 08 2010 16:11 iEchoic wrote:
I don't think anyone meant 14 pool 15 hatch. They meant the 13 pool/18 hatch which has been shown many times to be economically similar.
I run the build all the time and you're 100% right that both 14hatch and 14 pool 15 hatch will leave you at a disadvantage. 13pool/18 hatch is safe against the 2-rax pressure.
ive never heard of that build tbh ^^
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On December 08 2010 17:22 goto wrote:
A honest question: Is building a hatch inside your main as opposed to your natural viable?
Secondly: I have the feeling that NesTea didn't treat the all-in appropriately in Game 5. He could have survived if he pulled more drones. Why are not more players doing this?
You NEED to do hatch first at natural, otherwise you're economically behind.
You don't necessarily need to pull more drones; you just need to stall enough time for spine crawler to finish.
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On December 08 2010 17:05 13ThirtySeven wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 16:11 iEchoic wrote:
I don't think anyone meant 14 pool 15 hatch. They meant the 13 pool/18 hatch which has been shown many times to be economically similar. Someone on PlayXP disagrees. Here is a comparison they did between 14 hatch and 14 pool in Xel'Naga Caverns. 1. Hatch first 14 hatch after gas trick, build hatch at natural. Pool then gas at 15. 6 lings + queen, then make drones non-stop. Hatch finishes at 3:47, take off all drones off gas as soon as you gather 100 gas for ling speed Results at 5:30 26 drones, 2 queens, 6 lings, 6 larvae, 35 seconds left in ling speed 2. Pool first 14 pool after gas trick, assuming that you build hatch after your initial lings Build drones non-stop after 6 lings, mine 100 gas then take off all drones Pool finishes at 3:01, build hatchery at natural 3:52 Ling speed finishes at 5:05 (i.e. ling speed finishes 60 seconds earlier than hatch first) Results at 5:30 22 drones, 2 queens, hatch about to complete with 8 drones transferring, 5 larvae (including main and natural) Summary Ling speed finishes 60 seconds earlier with 4 less drones for pool first. Assuming 4 warp gate finishes at 5:30 then you can see that it is difficult for 14 pool to fend it off (spine crawler takes 50 seconds to complete, and protoss will come in before 5:40) Reasons for testing (GSL Spoiler): + Show Spoiler +To see the timing as to why FruitDealer was struggling against HongUn's 4 warp gate then losing to dark templars on Blistering Sands Also, pool first builds vs T gives you lower larvae and drone count thus you're at a disadvantage later in the game. Conclusion: hatch first is better than pool first for mid game after fending off 2 rax pressure.
Arguments like this is why people are so skeptical of the "proofs" that hatch first is better. You've only tested one pool first build, and you've heavily skewed things in favor of the hatch first by:
- Doing a late pool
- Doing a late FE
- Building much earlier Zerglings
- Taking a much earlier gas
- Getting Metabolic Boost much earlier
EDIT: If you want to play with things yourself, a better comparison would be to something like 12 pool 16 gas 19-20 hatch 19 Metabolic Boost.
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EPT
